posted April 01, 2010 01:50 AM         

I think you're asking about whether it's good to have a conscience lol.

posted April 01, 2010 04:47 AM         

I'd say that about love, btw. Too much badly executed is also destructive to self & others, and I consider that a vice rather than a virtue.

Even hate has its place when it helps you survive against an entity bent on your destruction or that of your kids as it shuts down empathy and allows you to do what you need to do, which is save lives against a chronic aggressor. Of course it can also become destructive and badly applied as is easily seen (actually I think toxic love is also easily seen, too, but many just can't seem to think of it that way as it's suppose to be all rosy and beautiful, perfect and even Godlike).

Anyway, back to guilt specifically--positively applied, guilt can help us treat others around us with fairness who hopefully also have a conscience and sense of empathy that allow similar treatment in turn and help us turn away from base instincts when we know we can get away with harming another who trusts us not to.

posted April 01, 2010 05:56 AM         

Guilt is about feeling bad and this can lead to dis-ease in the body.

I've met people suffering Catholic guilt - it's not pretty and very deeply ingrained cultural thinking.

What causes guilt?

Let's see.....Low self esteem? Knowing that you were wrong?

I made a decision today and my boss tried to make me feel guilty. This is how I processed it.....

I knew my decision may have been seen in a negative light. I made a decision based on higher order global thinking for the good of all involved. Well, that's how I perceived it at the time.

I was told off with a berating and demeaning comment. I cried. My boss tried to make me feel guilty with a ridiculous comment.

Do I feel guilty?

posted April 01, 2010 11:09 AM         

Dervish,
Interesting thoughts, thank you!

posted April 02, 2010 05:41 AM         

quote:

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keep improving ourselves

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posted April 02, 2010 06:02 AM         

quote:

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Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.

Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing

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However once one becomes aware of a wrongdoing, then do not do it again and forgive oneself, and if possible make amends.

posted April 03, 2010 02:44 AM         

Is it possible? Yes, I've done it.

I've felt guilt for things I've done, very similar to regret. For example, I once had sex with a guy just to tick off his dad. IOW, I used him. At the time I didn't think of what I was doing & assumed he'd just be glad for sex & not care why. But it later occurred to me that maybe he DID care, and at the very least I should've stated my intent. I can't say I actually hated myself for it, but I became aware that I'd at least potentially done him harm over something really shallow & petty and possibly even damaged his view of women in the process, and felt bad for it. And for me the guilt helped me to remember what I did and what was wrong with it and I've never done anything like that again. I feel compassion for myself and for him (I still don't care for his dad), and I don't beat myself up over it, not since I made firm my resolve and lived by it. And for that, I'm grateful for my guilt--ie, my awareness of having wronged others & how shallow it was which made me cringe as I realized it--that I think made me a better person without having to hate myself.

There's a word for many (if not all) people who don't feel guilt: sociopaths.

As for self-hatred, I think the closest to that I've come is anger at having done something stupid and I'm not certain if that counts as guilt or not. For example, when I was 15 I was nearly raped because I got into the car of a friendly man whom I figured was just being nice, assuming he was as well-meaning as I was. I later was not only furious at him but at myself for having not realized what I was doing, and there is a hint of what happened was my fault, too. But I've gotten over the anger at myself (I haven't exactly forgiven him but I don't dwell on it either) and just learned better, just as the guilt taught me better behavior.

As for how, I'm not certain how to explain it. Being aware that I've treated another unjustly brings pain but the pain fades once I work through it, which I do by thinking about it, learning from it (and what we learn in pain we learn so much better than say reading from a book), and making resolutions over it. Primarily guilt asks of me is this the kind of person I want to be and I either accept that yes it is (at least in certain conditions) or I seek to make a change.

I'm also aware that sometimes "making amends" can make it worse, especially if someone I wronged is unaware of it, and look to balance the scales as secretly as I unbalanced them, if I do anything at all (as for the guy I had sex with just to tick off his dad he'd joined the military to get away from his dad before it occurred to me to feel guilty over it and have never seen him again).

Of course I'm aware that people will try to manipulate me through my emotions, including guilt, and I think I'm pretty aware of when someone is attempting to do that (and it typically backfires on them).

I suppose the reason this works for me is that I accept I am an imperfect being in an imperfect world of imperfect beings. Making mistakes is just part of the process of living, like getting sick or doing something really mind boggling stupid sometimes. I don't expect perfection from anyone including myself, and I have a pretty absurdist philosophy on the world.

Another aspect is that I learned very young that life is chaos that was beyond my control and all I could control is MYSELF. Therefore, I wasn't inclined to blame myself for my parents excessive drinking & other dysfunctions as many others would have (other kids operating under the delusion that they controlled their parents behavior, and I understand some abusers like to tell their victims "why do YOU MAKE ME do this to you?" to reinforce that delusion).

Perhaps if I'd been raised to accept religion or its offshoots based on it then I might be different. As far as I'm concerned, much of that came about, or was at least perverted into, a scam to control people by making what was a natural a sin and then making people feel they made the angels cry by being natural who would then need to patronize a church & hand over their money (heck, hand over money on general principal or you're bad). Another terrible aspect is that God will take care of you if you're good, so if bad things happen, then you must not have prayed hard enough or something (it infuriates me when some clueless adult tries teaching this to kids!)

I was fortunate to escape that programming, and that's an example of what I consider toxic guilt because of both its irrationality and its pointless suffering, sometimes even for doing the RIGHT thing (like a friend of mine raised by a fundie mom felt guilty for voting against an anti-gay measure because even though she knew it was the right thing to do, she'd "betrayed God").

posted April 03, 2010 08:42 AM         

quote:

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awareness of having wronged others

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That is the key to finding balance. If you are aware, then you can change your behaviour. If you aren't aware you have a MUCH harder time changing behaviour that is unproductive, or destructive, etc.

I wanted to add that being aware doesn't mean you need to keep living it over and over again in your mind. Beating one's self up over something. That is destructive. Being aware and changing behaviour is constructive.
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We cannot seek or attain health, wealth, learning, justice or kindness in general. Action is always specific, concrete, individualized, unique. --Benjamin Jowett

posted April 03, 2010 09:25 AM         

quote:

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That is the key to finding balance. If you are aware, then you can change your behaviour. If you aren't aware you have a MUCH harder time changing behaviour that is unproductive, or destructive, etc.

I wanted to add that being aware doesn't mean you need to keep living it over and over again in your mind. Beating one's self up over something. That is destructive. Being aware and changing behaviour is constructive.

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