posted April 19, 2012 10:18 PM            

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Originally posted by Lonake:
An eye for an eye, huh. What happens when one of yours gets gouged?
Will you still be fighting the fight when your vision is so clouded by hatred that you can't see straight?
And does one need to be taunted for their sexual orientation to learn that life naturally throws curve balls, as if you're some force of nature? *True* activists do not hate humanity as much as you claim to. They do what they do to raise awareness of the matter in a responsible way. They hate the behavior, but not the people. They can see the difference & act accordingly. Their goal is to *further* humanitarian (generally democratic) causes, not to incite & demean by dragging humanity down as a consequence of their behavior.

[QUOTE]I think people who have been victimized and kicked down by society are good because they know from experience how it feels. Everyone else can go f**k themselves.

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I agree, Lonake!

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 20, 2012 12:08 AM            

I would say most people are cruel or interested in benefiting themselves.

Anyone who is kind and just will eventually become bad.

Here is a short sociology problem, everyone in the example is guilty by the way.

Everyone wants to attend college/university, but some high school students will cheat to get the grades they need.

The college/university administration needs funding, so they decide to start accepting foreign students that way they can charge double the tuition.

Some of the students at college/university are poorly prepared for post-secondary because of budget cuts and the fact that the politician is interested in other areas.

As a result of the lack of preparedness half the students fail, but the professors don't want to look bad and keep there jobs so the marks are bell curved and everyone passes.

I can go on about other examples in this world, its a big cycle right know of everyone doing wrong.

Just 10+ years ago people wouldn't be acting the way they are today.

posted April 20, 2012 08:37 AM            

In their own minds though... I think people are vile and I'm thankful there's a difference between what's inside verses what's outside.

posted April 20, 2012 12:23 PM            

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Originally posted by Sashar:
Instinctively, I think people are basically good, simply because when people aren't good it is a serious shock to my system. It surprises me to the point that I'm surprised that I'm so surprised. If that makes any sense.

In their own minds though... I think people are vile and I'm thankful there's a difference between what's inside verses what's outside.

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posted April 20, 2012 12:34 PM            

Suzi Dronzek ‏ @starcana

posted April 20, 2012 12:36 PM            

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Originally posted by SpooL:
I would say most people are cruel or interested in benefiting themselves.

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posted April 20, 2012 12:41 PM            

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Originally posted by Lonake:
An eye for an eye, huh. What happens when one of yours gets gouged?
Will you still be fighting the fight when your vision is so clouded by hatred that you can't see straight?
And does one need to be taunted for their sexual orientation to learn that life naturally throws curve balls, as if you're some force of nature? *True* activists do not hate humanity as much as you claim to. They do what they do to raise awareness of the matter in a responsible way. They hate the behavior, but not the people. They can see the difference & act accordingly. Their goal is to *further* humanitarian (generally democratic) causes, not to incite & demean by dragging humanity down as a consequence of their behavior.

[QUOTE]I think people who have been victimized and kicked down by society are good because they know from experience how it feels. Everyone else can go f**k themselves.

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posted April 20, 2012 05:05 PM            

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Originally posted by Aquacheeka:

That's very true, but I think the consequences are what keep people from acting on their baser instincts. The veneer of civility is just that - a veneer. In survival situations it is usually every man for himself. Even when people behave altruistically it is usually to protect "what's theirs," or to protect their own genes/offspring, which from an evolutionary standpoint is pure narcissism. When I see the majority of people helping perfect strangers or adopting rather than giving birth, I'll believe it

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I said good, not altruistic.
My definition of good isn't altruistic, but simply having no desire to cause other people harm. That doesn't mean the person doesn't cause other people harm at times, but rather, at their base (their reset value) they have no desire to do so.

Yes, our instincts to survive and be "me first" are in constant struggle with the altruistic side... but if we weren't predominantly altruistic, then there would be no acts of random kindness, even with threat of consequences.

Punishment or threat of punishment is not a successful deterrent for bad behavior and seldom has an effect on the percentage of people engaged in bad behavior. Reward is though... and we have a chemical in our brain that is released when committing acts of an altruistic nature. So even altruism is solely for ones own benefit.

...anyway, you seem upset by this issue. I'll tell you, the only way to fix the problem that you're seeing is to bring it directly into each individuals personal network. You don't have to do anything other than that, if they do not feel threatened nature will take it's course. How to do that is the problem, because talking about it is still not actually bringing it into their network.

posted April 20, 2012 05:30 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
We are all born innocent and pure. We Love by our very natures, but we learn to hate.

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posted April 20, 2012 07:14 PM            

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Originally posted by Aquacheeka:
Babies are born into the world screaming for food. And children need to be socialized not to hit, not to bully, to share/not to be selfish, etc. They're pure unadulterated self-interest until the adults teach them the difference between right and wrong (morality is a social construct, after all). If children are humanity in its purest form as some might argue, then that's a pretty good indication that people are not born good.

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The opposite was true of me. Many in my family tried hard to drive all empathy out of me (and they succeeded a little). For example, when I was 4 I broke out crying because I saw calves been strapped to a table and branded and my uncle got really upset with me, culminating in him butchering my favorite cow and serving her up, telling me who it was only after I was eating her. Being 4 I didn't understand (I think I got it confused with like how we got eggs and milk from animals but it didn't kill them) and said, "She sure tastes good!" It was days of not seeing her before it sank in that I never would again. He did it to teach me cows are livestock, not pets (so it's ok to strap them down and brand them, etc) but the lesson I took from it was anyone I loved might be harmed and I began to fear him (to this day we barely get along and I trace our split to that incident as I worshipped him until that happened, though there are plenty other reasons for us to not get along as well).

Granny did say I was an unusual child, but not unique. The only time she says I was a jerk (not counting when I'd been provoked) was right after I got sick from sneaking a drag off Granny's cigarette (again, when I was 4) and so I decided cigarettes were bad and took to taking cigarettes out of Granny's mouth even after she told me to stop (until she corrected my behavior with a spanking).

I've noticed a wide variation among kids growing up and as an adult I can see it even stronger now. I wouldn't say children are saints, but many very much wish to please others and have a strong desire to be fair (quite possibly because life tends to be unfair to them, however), though there are plenty of bullies and I do recall one little boy (I think 6) whom I thought was a sociopath (unlike his older sister). And while I have seen a lot of bad kids I can't help but notice that either their 'rents don't know how to talk to them in a productive way and/or the adults are just as bad (for example, if the parents yell obscenities then their children will, too, no matter how much their parents yell and cuss at them to stop).

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Originally posted by Aquacheeka:
Why does it make the news when someone lets a homeless stranger move into their house, or just gives their belongings and fortune away? Because it is [b]rare, that's why.[/B]

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First, you're making the mistake that every time someone homeless is taken in that it makes the news. Having been homeless and having worked with the homeless I know it happens a lot (not in a "bet on it" way, but it happens). As a runaway I did meet a lot of evil people (adults mostly, but also other kids)--on both sides of the law--who harmed kids for selfishness, perversion, and even sadistic pleasure, but there was good, too. And I was taken off the streets by people who defied the law to do so and thus it was kept very secret (after all, I was a minor, so they were contributing to my delinquency by doing so). I've known others to do the same thing.

Of course many who are homeless have learned bad habits and may even be mentally ill or powerfully addicted to something and thus I'd advise caution and wariness to anyone who thinks about taking in the homeless (including homeless kids).

Oh, and btw, when I was 19 I let another 19 year old live with me so that he wasn't on the streets (and though this surprised many it never made the news).

But then the media prefers to run horror stories over inspiring stories as that's what keeps people glued to the screen (and thus valuable to advertisers) or reading, and plenty of people love to manipulate people through fear as well.

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Originally posted by Aquacheeka:
For those individuals who insist that people are inherently good I want to ask them, what evidence can you provide of this? Where is your proof?

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I believe why you're in disagreement with others is that you have a radically different view of good so that only people like Mother Theresa can live up to it. I'm sure even many who insist people are inherently good would agree that people aren't saintly, and also that good people meet their obligations which means they have to take care of themselves and their loved ones as they're obligated to before looking to the rest of the world. And people like me (who doesn't define people as inherently good, but not inherently bad as you do either) would say that virtue carried to extreme (and you seem to define "goodness" as virtue taken to an extreme) becomes vice (ie, self-destructive).

posted April 20, 2012 08:15 PM            

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Originally posted by Lonake:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Randall:
[b]We are all born innocent and pure. We Love by our very natures, but we learn to hate.

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As evidenced by some here. How true.

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