posted September 10, 2015 07:44 PM            

I resonate everything except being #1 and being judged on material possession as something I do not agree. I wonder whether you all think it is true or not.

Honestly would be appreciated by this Sag Stellium

http://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html

10 Core American Values

individualism
belief that each person is unique, special and a “basic unit of nature”
emphasis on individual initiative
stress need for independence
premium on individual expression
value privacy

equality
open society that ideally treats everyone equally
little hierarchy
informal
directness in relations with others

materialism
a “right” to be well off and physically comfortable
judge people by their possessions

science and technology
values scientific approaches
primary source of good
major factor in change

progress and change
belief in changing self and country
“Manifest Destiny”
optimism -- nothing is impossible
work and leisure
strong work ethic
work is the basis of recognition, power.
idleness seen as a threat to society
leisure is a reward for hard work

competition
aggressive and competitive nature encouraged
Be First (#1) mentality

mobility
a people on the move
vertical (social / economic) as well as physical mobility

volunteerism
belief in helping others (related to equality concept)
philanthropy admired
a personal choice not a communal expectation
involves associations / denominations rather than kin-groups

action and achievement oriented
emphasis on getting things done
priority on planning and setting goals
tendency to be brief and business like,
practical
measure results
focus on function and pragmatism

posted September 10, 2015 07:52 PM            

I would love to move somewhere like California Silicon Valley and Hollywood partly because I am interested in Business and Entertainment. I know people say it is too fake. I have spent sometime like 2 weeks in Hollywood. I know it is super competitive.

I was dead sure for many years and now I am like I don't want to any more. I wonder if that is because I am being more British and having defeatist mentality. I also feel in some way I have added advantage to know different thing but I miss having people who gets me very easily.

I would like to make some friends before I come and realistically what one can expect from a friend. What would be best way to make friends who has mutual interest?
As I do not believe in my family,etc. ( whole other thread for that).

posted September 10, 2015 08:13 PM            

In some places science isn't valued. I understand we're the first world nation with the most believing in Creationism for example and actively trying to stamp out the teaching of evolution in schools (even some schools in California endure this). Of course if science (more specifically engineering) can be used to make money then that's very different.

Many people do judge others by how much they got and all that. But sometimes they judge them more harshly than positively, and vice versa. Equality is an ideal that's touted but not often practiced (at least not consistently and some places are said you have rights if you can afford the lawyer to protect them), but how much money you have does seem to be THE primary factor over anything else like race, gender, etc.

Strangely, it's often okay to practice discrimination (assuming no lawyers get involved) and yet we police our words more harshly than other nations with the effect that I think we're more racist than many first world countries yet also more politically correct.

Privacy is a sticky one. In some ways, yes, in other ways they want transparency, and not just of the government but also the people. An Argentina friend considers it ironic that Americas are so against a national identity documents as she has in her nation and yet after she visited America she felt so intruded on by the US government (even worse than when she went to Cuba) that she never came back (*), and she notes the many ways that Americans tolerate having their privacy violated that would never fly in Argentina. Yet suggest the US use a national ID card (simplifying what we already have) and watch Americans get angry as "We're a free country, we don't need to show the government our papers! Just our many licenses, receipts, proofs, credit reports, etc, etc, even our social security card that we're told not to share and yet find very difficult to get by if we don't..."

(*She's from Argentina. Being from the UK you should get less hassle assuming you don't do something mind boggling stupid like texting threats against America or anyone in it as you fly in.)

There are many charitable people in the US, and plenty of volunteers, and yet I'd say they're a minority, unless you count those who give to bell ringers or at the register when asked. (I was generally considered a sap for my charity and volunteerism with them giving excuses on why they wouldn't, like their tax dollars pay for it as an example or even the people helped don't deserve it, though when Obama promoted charity it became a short-lived fad in which everyone pretended they'd been volunteers their entire lives, even those who had mocked me for it. The fad was very short-lived, however.) However, when gut wrenching images of tragedy hit them over the TV and internet then you'll see a sudden upswing in charity and giving.

posted September 10, 2015 08:46 PM            

How did you manage to write that post. So Quick ! Super cool :-) I was thinking of you. Have you always been called pixie something before this username? I believe you have been on board longer.

I am Indian. I feel India in some ways understand that they both are important. I am not too bothered about Science and Religion. It is a great decision for me to change my nationality.

Location is CA.Sure ! I am not interested anywhere in the beginning. Solely because those are the hubs on what I want to do.
When? Perhaps next year.

I think here I had found.

1) Lack of encouragement
2) People are narrow minded
3) No Love for Strangers and Suspicious about everything.
4) They have got that life sorted so very risk averse.
5) Takes years to built where you can call you have even friendship or relationship with anyone. Isolation is very big one
6) Feeling of loneliness
7) Lots of rules and limitation
8) Severe cuts on important things like education, hospitals, etc.
10) Constant pressure on day to day life.
11) No Emotions - I am Scorpio, where is life here in this Capricorn grey country.

However you still get lots of people from different races however their xenophobic media just wouldn't shut up about Immigration and make everyone unwelcome.

posted September 10, 2015 08:49 PM            

Suing people is also new one.

posted September 10, 2015 08:58 PM            

I feel kind of over burdened by my in laws when they get old. They are only in their 60s but lot of guilt trips already and we are only in our 30s.

Living in a country side house isn't my dream ! I guess I prefer American Dream as I feel as long as I retire rich where things are happening, that's enough. Kids aren't going to take care of me.

posted September 10, 2015 11:16 PM            

Getting a house is usually expensive in America, but I don't know how it compares to the UK. Many people get a loan for that, and plenty never buy a home, they just rent. About any bank will happily explain what you need and what special programs exist that you might be able to use. (Nevertheless, that doesn't mean they won't try to take advantage of you so keep your wits about you. Landlords can rip you off as well. That famous individualism we have comes with a dark side. But I want to stress that this is a danger you face and should be prepared for though others will try to be fair, honest, and honorable.)

You don't want to get stuck in our old folks homes, where plenty of people here will stick their aging parents to forget about them (and if they can get an early start in taking their stuff before the funeral then so much the better).

You'll probably find our health care system (even in California) strange and confusing. (Interesting enough, the better insurance you have the less you'll be charged--this is because most insurance companies and hospitals are owned by Wall Street and they make special deals with each other.) If you get sick you'll probably need to go to a charity hospital and that can be very hard to do as so many use them. Service is generally terrible and I've heard of personal experiences that make me hope I never have to use one (though one I went to as a requirement for a volunteer project was decent with a pleasant doctor who seemed both competent and caring). In a truly terrible emergency (like a car wreck) you can get treatment at the ER but be prepared for sticker shock. If you don't pay it the creditors will come after you though I think in California they can only do so for 7 years (the prices are so outrageous that it's pretty much accepted that people can't afford it on their own and I hear that bad credit due to medical bills is often ignored). Other types of debt, however, can haunt you for a lot longer.

Also, credit scores are important! I don't know how this works for people from other countries but even as an American I've had trouble finding even a place to rent because I have no credit. (I've refused to get a credit card and did the vast majority of my business on the gray market which is typically cash up front which leaves little to no credit trail.) Interesting enough having no credit is worse than having bad credit. Will you have a credit score over here? Since finances are international it's possible that you will, but I don't know for sure. If you have no credit score, however, then you're going to have a very hard time. When you try to rent you will almost certainly be required to sign consent for the landlord to get your credit score.

If you wish to immigrate you will find it very confusing to keep up with. If you have a corporation to sponsor you, or should you start a business that hires a certain number of Americans, then it's easy. Otherwise...well there's a reason so many immigrants finally go illegal, I can't say I blame them (I blame the system more in most cases). That said, it's not impossible even if you have to do it the hard way, but it will be frustrating, especially if you're not white.

If you're Indian then there may be groups you can apply to for help. Many minorities form a "union" of sorts to collectively deal with the problems they face. I don't know if they're worth it or not. Don't forget that embassies can also help (though I don't know how that works out in real life either).

On the plus side, gas is very cheap compared to the UK.

posted September 11, 2015 05:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
If you're not white then you're going to face hurdles. Most of it won't be in your face but you'll get hassles and restrictions that white people don't, even in California. Not everywhere, but plenty of places.

Getting a house is usually expensive in America, but I don't know how it compares to the UK. Many people get a loan for that, and plenty never buy a home, they just rent. About any bank will happily explain what you need and what special programs exist that you might be able to use. (Nevertheless, that doesn't mean they won't try to take advantage of you so keep your wits about you. Landlords can rip you off as well. That famous individualism we have comes with a dark side. But I want to stress that this is a danger you face and should be prepared for though others will try to be fair, honest, and honorable.)

You don't want to get stuck in our old folks homes, where plenty of people here will stick their aging parents to forget about them (and if they can get an early start in taking their stuff before the funeral then so much the better).

You'll probably find our health care system (even in California) strange and confusing. (Interesting enough, the better insurance you have the less you'll be charged--this is because most insurance companies and hospitals are owned by Wall Street and they make special deals with each other.) If you get sick you'll probably need to go to a charity hospital and that can be very hard to do as so many use them. Service is generally terrible and I've heard of personal experiences that make me hope I never have to use one (though one I went to as a requirement for a volunteer project was decent with a pleasant doctor who seemed both competent and caring). In a truly terrible emergency (like a car wreck) you can get treatment at the ER but be prepared for sticker shock. If you don't pay it the creditors will come after you though I think in California they can only do so for 7 years (the prices are so outrageous that it's pretty much accepted that people can't afford it on their own and I hear that bad credit due to medical bills is often ignored). Other types of debt, however, can haunt you for a lot longer.

Also, credit scores are important! I don't know how this works for people from other countries but even as an American I've had trouble finding even a place to rent because I have no credit. (I've refused to get a credit card and did the vast majority of my business on the gray market which is typically cash up front which leaves little to no credit trail.) Interesting enough having no credit is worse than having bad credit. Will you have a credit score over here? Since finances are international it's possible that you will, but I don't know for sure. If you have no credit score, however, then you're going to have a very hard time. When you try to rent you will almost certainly be required to sign consent for the landlord to get your credit score.

If you wish to immigrate you will find it very confusing to keep up with. If you have a corporation to sponsor you, or should you start a business that hires a certain number of Americans, then it's easy. Otherwise...well there's a reason so many immigrants finally go illegal, I can't say I blame them (I blame the system more in most cases). That said, it's not impossible even if you have to do it the hard way, but it will be frustrating, especially if you're not white.

If you're Indian then there may be groups you can apply to for help. Many minorities form a "union" of sorts to collectively deal with the problems they face. I don't know if they're worth it or not. Don't forget that embassies can also help (though I don't know how that works out in real life either).

On the plus side, gas is very cheap compared to the UK.

And sorry if I'm discouraging, life here can be done and be very satisfying, but don't come here thinking our streets are paved with gold and that all your dreams are just going to come true. It's usually hard work to make a life for yourself here, especially if you're not white or native (though if you have plenty of money--as in buying a house and luxury car is no problem--then you'll actually be better off and have it easier than plenty of white Americans), and life won't always be fair...but that's pretty much true anywhere you go.

---

I have realised that there isn't really an added advantage in being a foreign country and especially not getting any respect as an immigrant. I have understood it isn't paved with gold but you have to realize that people who come to a foreign country they come with hope that they would have better life but ofcourse for natives it is more about cheap or free labour. Coming to UK had been very disappointing and nobody seem to talk problems in UK. It always seem like it must be so perfect. So far I have come also during like when Saturn was in 8th house and while Saturn return. So after all Slavery has been abolished but advantage and attitude hasn't changed. Like people would like to trade with foreign countries but wouldn't want them to come in their country. I can assure you that those illegal immigrants are being exploited.

BTW Embassy doesn't do anything.

I didn't mean home as in a physical house. It would be nice definitely but just home where your heart is. It is extremely difficult to own property in UK given current prices and rents are high.

I know about Old homes and also Hospitals. I guess Insurance is must whereas in plus side UK does have free Hospital - not necessarily great but it helped me giving birth.
I think you are right unless somebody is doing business or getting sponsored, I can see there is no point.

I think I miss just people being nice to each other, to strangers and have less pressure. In India, people aren't so obsessed with whether you work or not, what you do ? People would just be generous and help you out despite not having benefit system. Sometimes it isn't about money but just encouraging words and being nice. It is looked down upon here if anybody is claiming benefits and even for mothers who are caring. I have never claimed any benefits as I have always been working but there is this general mentality if you are immigrant then you are. I also feel people are into mocking quiet a lot here. I guess racism is big one. I do not feel in UK on the face anything yet but I don't know why it feels like white always has this superior attitude.

I guess I want to know what are expectations on women in terms of whether she works or not ? Gender Equality does that mean that both parents are working and children are left at childcare and schools ? I think for me childcare is big one as well. I know I would have to come if I can afford not to have childcare which is soon going to be free for my son in 1-2 years, hospital and still able to pay my bills.

I have already realised that compared to India where people can easily have servants, drivers,etc. I do not think it is possible in so called First World Countries like UK or USA. Also there is just general help with looking after children from grandparents. Do grandparents think they should take care of granchildren ?

posted September 11, 2015 05:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aquaguy91:
American people have a reputation for being friendly but it's a superficial friendliness and isn't genuine most of the time. People here will smile at you even if they hate your guts. I think those are some things to be aware of.

---

posted September 11, 2015 05:53 PM            

1) DECENT FRIENDS: Do you have friends whom you are happy about their achievements and our able to empathize with their downfalls ? Rather than being jealous of achievements and derive pleasure from their downfall.

2)HELPING STRANGER: I don't know why but this is big one for me as it says opposite to Xenophone and I like that in Asia people are like that. They appreciate things foreign and give highest respect and not because every foreigner who comes to this countries have lots of money but guest gets treated well. It says openness to new ideas, no need to control. I have seen both in India and China. I think perhaps I expect the same. I feel once in a while you can not be kind then there is something wrong. Can somebody help stranger without asking for in return? Do people keep scores like who did what? Are people reliable to follow what they are saying ?

3) EMPATHISE & SHOWING KINDNESS : Are you genuinely able to help anyone or like to but can not because of your circumstances? ( Welcome to 21st century!) Do you bother to explain yourself or shut your doors on them or do not have time to do so. Insincerity and Unreliable has been big one for Californians like yes they would say yes to many things and then they do not turn up,etc.

posted September 11, 2015 07:01 PM            

There are genuinely helpful people who help out strangers. But there are also con-artists (and worse) who pretend to be helpful or pretend to need help so you have to be careful.

The general "Californian mindset" in the cities (LA is especially notorious for it) is very easygoing and "easy come easy go" which does translate into casual flaking out at times. They may agree to meet you and may even mean it at the time but then it just slips their mind (especially if they get another invite). I've learned to accept this, though I expect them to let me know rather than keep me waiting to figure out for myself that they're flaking out. OTOH, there's usually little pressure about saying the right things, etc. There's some but people from other countries, or even from say New York City, find even Californian corporate culture mind boggling casual in comparison to their own, and in contrast Californians find New Yorkers and other places too uptight (especially if their bosses make them cater to the expectations of those from out of state).

As for grandmothers, they often do take care of kids, but are often treated as "free childcare" by parents (who also tend to see schools in the same way). That said, corporations have long encouraged extended families to break up so that they'd become more dependent on the corporation, and there was a time (like in the 50s-60s) that it was relatively easy to get one's own home so that nuclear families could form far away from their extended families to be next to where they worked. This has led to many problems though as many are now without a family support structure in place which makes them reliant on their bosses and the government for help whereas in other nations the extended families would take care of them instead. And where family estates and the like used to be passed down generation to generation it's now considered to be a shame to not "leave the nest (permanently)" and everything (even family homes) have become disposable. The roots are gone and the only home is where you make money at the time (typically until something better comes along). This isn't universally true but it is the way things tend to work out in the US.

Unfortunately, as people are usually measured by how much they make and have the elderly are often dismissed and even treated with contempt. The abuse of the elderly in our old folks homes and those who casually place their aging parents into them are a national disgrace (and then start dividing up their possessions, and I know a guy who lost his apartment of decades fast because the adult kids put his landlord in an old folks home and before he was even dead took control of the property and evicted everyone as fast as they could so they could sell it, meanwhile one tenant was the one to take care of the landlord while the grown kids so fast to put him in an old folks home ignored him and his health problems).

And as for meeting American travelers, they'll usually be different from locals as they have money, are usually better educated, and they usually have an interest in foreign people. And just because they're friendly to you in other countries doesn't necessarily mean they'll be friendly to you back home. Likewise, many Americans will treat you differently if you're a tourist passing through rather than an immigrant moving into the area.

posted September 11, 2015 07:13 PM            

"Cat's In The Cradle"

My child arrived just the other day
He came to the world in the usual way
But there were planes to catch and bills to pay
He learned to walk while I was away
And he was talkin' 'fore I knew it, and as he grew
He'd say "I'm gonna be like you, Dad
You know I'm gonna be like you"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home, Dad
I don't know when, but we'll get together then
You know we'll have a good time then

My son turned ten just the other day
He said, "Thanks for the ball, Dad, come on let's play
can you teach me to throw", I said "Not today
I got a lot to do", he said, "That's ok
And he walked away but his smile never dimmed
And said, "I'm gonna be like him, yeah
You know I'm gonna be like him"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home, Dad
I don't know when, but we'll get together then
You know we'll have a good time then

Well, he came from college just the other day
So much like a man I just had to say
"Son, I'm proud of you, can you sit for a while"
He shook his head and said with a smile
"What I'd really like, Dad, is to borrow the car keys
See you later, can I have them please"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son
I don't know when, but we'll get together then, Dad
You know we'll have a good time then

I've long since retired, my son's moved away
I called him up just the other day
I said, "I'd like to see you if you don't mind"
He said, "I'd love to, Dad, if I can find the time
You see my new job's a hassle and kids have the flu
But it's sure nice talking to you, Dad
It's been sure nice talking to you"

And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me
He'd grown up just like me
My boy was just like me

posted September 11, 2015 10:43 PM            

Childcare costs are really huge ! When it would be hardly 10% or 40% of your income in previous generation. Now they have rose to almost 80%-90% so what's the point in working ?

Anyway as a sandwich generation I have some maybe very mean (maybe practical) things to say to Baby Boomers.

I feel they do not want to be responsible unlike traditional parents but are just happy to give everyone responsibility,they do expect a lot from their children. They have made their children independent but not themselves.They have regretted leaving their children and now they want them around again not to take care of them or grandchildren but so that their children can take care of them.

Also many children sit and have done lot of work for free as well. I started working in my family business since I can't even remember and then from 16 years of age full time, crazy hours,etc.

The reason I see Millenials are " Me " generation is because they have already feel orphaned by their parents,undervalued, went through from one abuse to another, no proper schooling ( student's loan debt, mortgage debt ) and they know not to expect anything from their future children. Best they can do is raise next generation better.

Today's generation is living far worse than Baby Boomers. Can't afford to have house , living or childcare. Yes, I agree people do rely on corporations and government now but it is all about give and take. It is easy to do business transactions then to deal with family unspoken transactions with lot of emotional drama.

If grand parents are expecting childcare cost to be paid, then they should be able to work as an employee or at least somebody who would listen. However I feel that there is a streak of arrogance, insecurity of losing their own authority or losing their own voice. Grandparents do not want to take care of grandchild. If so then why is it wrong if child doesn't want to take care of parents?

It seems there is more shame on children not doing their bit whereas there is no shame on parents doing their thing.

Most people get so hung up about what they have done.I guess parents think that they need return on investment for bringing up their children whereas they didn't do for joy of it. It can be really hard for older generation to realize that a) that they have gone old in some way b) they aren't going to get same help as they had hoped but so are children unhappy about how they have been raised.

Traditional Society worked with
1. Parents took care of children and gave good dose of abuse.
2. Grandparents gave parents money in terms of house, inheritance and free childcare.Grandparents died fairly early in their life.
3. Children took care of their parents who died early and everybody lived in large family where having large families were norm thus they didn't all feel so pressurized to make money. I am not sure about America but did people had slaves or cheap labour who did things?

There was a reason why class system was there. Now everybody wants to be equal. Despite having labour saving equipments there is shortage of very cheap labour.

However now from Baby Boomers
1. Baby Boomers didn't have proper chance to take care of children and some have seriously done lot of damage with lots of abuse. Abuse which we know only now as everybody is talking about it.
2. There is no money pot from Baby Boomers
They are living longer. Family has become smaller. They do not want to take care of grandchildren. They haven't formed social relationships.
3. Current Parents can not live with Grand Parents or Grand Parents also do not want to live in big family. Current Parents are unable to take care of themselves and finds it impossible to take care of anyone especially with children. Can not buy house, job insecurity,etc.Actually currently Singles do not want to get married too or have children. Women do not see point in having marriage and child as they are independent they do not need men to support or fulfill those needs but nowadays all feel so pressurized to make money. Not only that there is also a pressure that one should be living their authenticate life and follow their passion. Everybody wants to be paid atleast Minimum Wage

To add to that Globalization which adds further layer where people are no longer living in the same country and I really wondered what happened to when people used to go on voyages to discover new land and least you could do is send each other letters instead of now we have Skype, Email and Telephone instead of being a good communicative device it has been where parents are busy giving pressure /guilt trips to their children.

I know it hurts people to know that unlike them who took care of their parents nobody is going to take care of them but in the same way children would also would have liked to be taken care better.At the end of it all it is carer's choice.

posted September 12, 2015 12:53 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
If grand parents are expecting childcare cost to be paid, then they should be able to work as an employee or at least somebody who would listen. However I feel that there is a streak of arrogance, insecurity of losing their own authority or losing their own voice. Grandparents do not want to take care of grandchild. If so then why is it wrong if child doesn't want to take care of parents?

---

I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. Grandparents often take care of kids for free but the parents aren't really about making the family bond, rather it's all about parental convenience dropping them off and then picking them up at the parent's own schedule. While grandparents griping about this aren't unknown they generally don't complain about "free child care," but the parents pretty much treat the grandparents as strangers who are babysitters only they don't have to pay them. Not that the grandparent demands to be paid, but rather the parents treat the grandparents coldly rather than like family.

Plenty of grandparents also try to take away kids who are being abused or neglected by parents but aren't allowed to by the courts because they're not seen as real family. Only the mother counts, the father comes in second, and grandparents are a distant third as far as the law is concerned.

posted September 12, 2015 01:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
I am not sure about America but did people had slaves or cheap labour who did things?

---

Historically, the rich had servants (typically immigrants of some kind though others considered of the lower classes as well) and those who couldn't afford servants instead had kids who were used as free labor.

This is why there's summer vacation for most American schools (and in other countries), it wasn't about the kids having some free time, but rather a holdover from back in the days when kids were needed a lot more to work the farm. They typically worked the farm even when school was in session as well and there were complaints raised about kids who weren't eating right or getting enough rest so that they were about falling over in school.

In my family (according to the history) kids ate last, after the adults, which is why I was taught how to forage (just as a family tradition) learning how to find and safely eat what I could find in the woods (plus hunting and fishing are big). I understand that such was common back in those days.

Going further back children were even sent off to sweatshops with the parents taking the pay in addition to having the children do chores. (And as parents today like to dope kids up with Zoloft parents back then would use a product called Mother's Little Helper.) And that had a lot to do with compulsory education here because unions could not compete with child labor so the unions pushed hard to mandate children be in school and finally succeeded. It wasn't because the nation cared about the children (even if there were a few who romanticized childhood) but because they cared about themselves, and that trend continues though it's not as cold blooded as it used to be.

School lunches were instituted after awhile not out of compassion for kids who were hungry but because too many kids turned into adults not fit to be drafted into military service so PE/gym classes were instituted and school lunch programs that were high in calories were given which made boys stronger and also helped girls gain the nutrition they needed to better have babies (which is why their PE/gym back then was so different and remained so until at least 2000, though the differences between boys and girls shrank over time). It was done with the same compassion as a rancher making sure his cattle are healthy. But after awhile American grew more prosperous so that food was no longer the problem it had once been and then kids couldn't get as much exercise outside as before due to many factors which meant that high calorie diet put into schools many decades ago led to obesity in childhood by the 2000s (granted, fast food and the like don't help) which was only recently changed (though many who make money selling their food to schools fight to keep getting paid which is what it's all about, the money, not the kids).

Slavery existed in some places as well, but it was officially ended after the Civil War in the 19th century. 'Course social circumstances were such that slavery still continued in actuality for a long time after but it wasn't called that anymore.

posted September 12, 2015 07:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. Grandparents often take care of kids for free but the parents aren't really about making the family bond, rather it's all about parental convenience dropping them off and then picking them up at the parent's own schedule. While grandparents griping about this aren't unknown they generally don't complain about "free child care," but the parents pretty much treat the grandparents as strangers who are babysitters only they don't have to pay them. Not that the grandparent demands to be paid, but rather the parents treat the grandparents coldly rather than like family.

---

No Pixie, we are seeing same thing from different perspective due to our different experience. There is a general assumption that Grandparents past parents do everything in your mind and that isn't always true. That Grandparents aren't selfish and do not impede progress of children. What would you consider what is a family bond? How do you think grandparents are being treated as stranger ? Please elaborate what expectations are and what you have seen.

I guess I really don't know what you mean about having family bond as we didn't have great role models.

Also expectations of good family are fuelled by nonsense family perfect picture by Hollywood and so are of prince charming.
Women and older generation isn't the one being taken care of and now people have to take care of themselves. Personal responsibility as men do not want to be so much responsible too.

If they are treating as strangers if you think is only because they have been given heaps of responsibility. However once again whether they are realistic in today's world when I have already talked about pressure put on common man/woman.

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Plenty of grandparents also try to take away kids who are being abused or neglected by parents but aren't allowed to by the courts because they're not seen as real family. Only the mother counts, the father comes in second, and grandparents are a distant third as far as the law is concerned.

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And old folks home are very abusive. It would be kinder to kill them than put them in most old folks home. I don't feel like describing the horrors that go on in them. Animals on my family farm get treated better than the elderly in old folks home. And technically it's illegal but then so are so many drugs which are legion in the land. It's illegal, it's wrong, and it goes on every single day. If people actually cared it would probably be stopped real fast, but as it is any politicians pushing to fix the problem even just by enforcing the laws already on the books would probably get voted out of office.

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It is sorry state however I would then recommend personal care at home, or people around with whom others can be or communal care and people having that money to do so or get help among each other rather than relying on children. It doesn't have to be old folk homes but I also feel how much of it is paranoia or because of bad press. Whether few examples should make you feel like you can not trust them again? My mother who is in her 60-70 would spent time with who is in her 90s. Women in 90 is far more active and flexible than my mother.

posted September 12, 2015 07:26 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Historically, the rich had servants (typically immigrants of some kind though others considered of the lower classes as well) and those who couldn't afford servants instead had kids who were used as free labor.

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Bingo ! It is lower class mentality of children helping parents.

posted September 12, 2015 03:52 PM            

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
American people have a reputation for being friendly but it's a superficial friendliness and isn't genuine most of the time. People here will smile at you even if they hate your guts. I think those are some things to be aware of.

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wtf?

posted September 12, 2015 07:10 PM            

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Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
I also feel how much of it is paranoia or because of bad press.

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Here in the US there is very little bad press. And much that I'm aware of that exist is because someone actually cared and left a private cam to catch what was going on when they were away.

I first learned of it when I was a kid and the terrible abuse was never reported on publicly. I do recall that it was reported that one old man was killed by fire ants as he lay in his bed and I wasn't the least bit surprised by that happening as I knew of the place but the terrible conditions that allowed that to happen were never reported by the media as far as I know.

Old people don't matter. Their earning power is gone, and so is their youth, perhaps the two things we as a nation value the most. Even in Frisco which is supposed to be all liberal I saw a businessman honking his nonstop at an old woman on a walker as he couldn't move yet the cars on the lane of both sides refused to stop (though it was the law to--but as the Californian saying goes "no copee, no stopee"--that is if there isn't a cop on the scene then they're not going to obey the traffic laws--and that sometimes applies even to stop signs) so that the old woman couldn't move anyway. (As this was a cross into Golden Gate Park that only gave the Walk sign when someone hit it--and for just a few seconds--I had to hit it twice to get her across the street.)

posted September 12, 2015 07:17 PM            

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Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
Grandparents have made this like a box where somebody should provide for themselves, for them, their children and not be too ambitious so that they have time and take care of granparents.

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Not in the US. But I can't speak of other nations.

posted September 12, 2015 07:24 PM            

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Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
I know children who would call child helpline to get their own way...lol..but then again it comes back to that mother is also most responsible and criticized.

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I'd love to know how this works out where you've seen it, I mean play by play, as it actually has the sound of a comedy show.

posted September 12, 2015 07:39 PM            

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Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
No Pixie, we are seeing same thing from different perspective due to our different experience. There is a general assumption that Grandparents past parents do everything in your mind and that isn't always true.

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Even in the above I said it wasn't always true, and I never said grandparents do EVERYTHING, and I don't appreciate having my words turned into a strawman.

The legal conditions are true, but AS I SAID some grandparents do complain. Some also refuse outright. But I'm mainly talking about the grandparents that get used because grandparents are expected to love taking care of the grandchildren so it's done and they're criticized if they don't. Though the stereotype is also that they somewhat spoil the grandchildren and tell them embarrassing stories about the parents when they were kids but that doesn't always happen either.

Btw, this isn't about who is selfish and who is selfless, who is a terrible sinner and who is a blameless saint. My mind doesn't work in a duality like that, dividing everyone up into "demons" and "angels" where one side is completely in the right and the other completely in the wrong. And I also believe everyone is selfish...but there's healthy and unhealthy selfish behavior.

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Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
That Grandparents aren't selfish and do not impede progress of children. What would you consider what is a family bond? How do you think grandparents are being treated as stranger ? Please elaborate what expectations are and what you have seen.

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What I've seen a lot of is people who want their parents (ie, grandparents) to take care of the kids (ie, grandkids) like professional babysitters. They don't ask, plan, or ask if there's anything to do in return, they simply expect them to be ready to be used and not dealt with otherwise, and may even hold them in contempt but find the free service too valuable. The parents don't visit (save maybe during holidays when it's expected and treated like an obligation) they drop off the kids and pick them up, and that's about it. They treat them as they would a professional babysitter, only no pay, and sometimes not even asking if they can and ignoring any concerns the grandparents bring up. Parents expect the grandparents to give but not to give anything back (like say help in picking up meds or helping them with grocery shopping, or even just visiting a few hours).

Having been a professional babysitter myself I've become aware of many family dynamics, it would probably make plenty of them uncomfortable if they were aware how much I picked up. (But then I sometimes picked up more about their own kids than the parents did as well.)

posted September 12, 2015 09:58 PM            

I am confused Pixie - You are saying that Grandparents want to be paid or want something in return if they took care of grandchildren....lol...
So it would be perfectly all right for parents to be paid for taking care of grandparents ? Yes ?

Whereas parents are supposed to do things for grandparents because they grew them up....Don't you see hypocrisy ????

Yes they took good care of my husband but not me.

I agree with asking them if they wanted to be paid or wanted anything in return. However I have problem where helping each other is more of "Please help me" or "YOU MUST" or you are useless and we have all right to abuse you Or break your self esteem.

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In this case the grandparents are included in on the discussions of what happens as a husband & wife supposedly do with each other

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We were planning to buy property so she would start with horror stories of how wife killed husband and got whole house.

I do not think things between husband and wife should be something which should be discussed to everyone as long as they are happy with each other. We almost live in the country where we don't want to because otherwise we are bad children or something. They had this dream that my whole family would move right next door to them and grandparents would be taken care of. As if my family isn't going to have any expectations or I wouldn't have any expectations.

When we had my wedding I had to organize everything and they came and since didn't speak language they said they are going to be useless but want to spend lots of time with my husband so even he can't help.
When I had my pregnancy and child nobody was around. I had to whinge and moan and then when my mother in law did come to take care, she had her friends who would gesture that don't ask her to do that. Are yo crazy?
Why are you asking her to do anything ? I let her do things because she wanted to show everyone she does so much for us. Come and criticize how our home was untidy. Least of my concern as I was keeping my baby alive. They had Nanny whereas I can't afford now.

I agree with Meds thing, getting grocery, etc but they do not live that close that we can actually help them and they do not as well as much as they should / could but then what is the whole point of talking about oh ! we are getting old and we do not want you to go anywhere.

When I got married I got married to my husband for love not because I was going to be able to take care of whole other family.
I had for very long taken care and given lots to my own family which has left me with lots of financial hardship currently. I wouldn't have been able to stop my family asking out of me unless I had got married.
After that my husband or my child isn't going to take care of me once I get old.

Not to my husband (because they can't say anything to my husband and my husband don't says anything to them) but to me everybody was like they looked at me I don't know whether I look stupid or what they just thought "oh she is going to take all responsibility of them" and like whole community was on me. As if I don't have a life !

It is also they are dead set in their ways and they want to change our life by constantly criticizing. Honestly I am tired constantly feeling like I am a brat but if I knew how much responsibility and what I was involved in then I would have never got married and have children. I had been very open to my husband with my family. I had told him everything what was wrong and what wasn't. My husband isn't supposed to do anything for my family, I took my family and made them aware that they aren't not to expect anything of me and my husband so I just seem it is bit unfair on them to just expect like so massively.

Where I do not have patience to change them. Trust me I have tried during last 2 and 1/2 years with Saturn being in Scorpio.

I seriously do not want anything from them as again it would one would start ending up having arguments who did what? I guess I would see if we can do lots of family transactions where you did this so I am doing this. What a disaster that is going to be !

I do things selflessly and expect people to do things selflessly. I really need to start learning how to do deal making. Start doing contracts as when they do their part I do mine. Because when it is other way round, people seem to always find excuse to not do theirs.

My problem is that yes you can get away with other transactions but family transactions are just plain burden and one can't get away very far away. Some of those transactions like you are completely unaware.

I took care of you from baby to adult so YOU OWE ME.
You got married to my son so YOU OWE ME.
We are Family so YOU F****ING OWE ME.

In return nobody OWES ME ANYTHING.