posted June 03, 2009 06:59 PM         

when it was illegal to have or give abortions people still did it when they felt they had to. now it is legal. when has it ever been legal to take the law into your own hands? and since we are talking CHRISTIAN extremists, in church of all places!! if this is christianity then the russians are welcome to it!

posted June 04, 2009 08:34 AM         

Katatonic

quote:

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give them the right to "take out" someone who is legally doing something they don't approve of?

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what do you imply by " take out ?"

Personal physical assaults ?

If you mean public demonstrations that are Pro Life, well there the Pro - choice side also does all of the same things and were the ones to start it in the first place.

I am pro - life and i dont appreciate being told its a result of patriarchial oppressive brainwashing and not my free will ,that I place equal value on the life of a baby - as i would on my own.

I find THAT TALIBANIC.

If women want to abort they will, like they always have.Why have an entire movement screaming such a private issue from the rooftops and engaging in propoganda rather than letting each individual contemplate their own case .

Why make it a Black and White issue of which gender is in power depending on whther they think its okay to kill a baby ?

And i cant imagine why, if there is an effort to counter pro - choice propoganda by those who are pro - life , should there be any problem to those who believe in individual choice ?

If thats not hypocrisy what is ??

quote:

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I never understood the extremist pro-life behavior which condones (and justifies) atrocities.
It's
Pro-War
Pro-Death Penalty
Pro-Murder....
How the hell is it called Pro-Life?
Just call it Pro-Birth and call it a day.

---

I agree with you on the Pro - Birth term

but wait a minute ..whoever IS Pro - Murder ????

If your daughter was raped and murdered or your sister - would you not want that culprit punished so it doesnt happen to another girl ?

A few years ago when one such assh0le got executed another man who had kidnapped a minor girl and planned to rape her let her go when he saw it on the news.

The crimes that we see today is bad enough.It would be nonsensical if not masochistic to even think of doing away with justice - which is the only deterrant to crime.

Not to mention war is not only necesary but vital to the existence of civilisations in some cases when there is NO other option and when attempts at peace are futile.

For eg . if we talk about radical Islamic nations,well the whole point of Islam is to either convert ALL humans to it or kill them.

I am glad americans have the sense to keep radical islamic terrorists in control.As for the civilian casualties - how are we supposed to care about them when they either dont care about their fundies killing or converting us all - or even worse agreeing to it.Its just that the harmless civilians are not the ones acting on the religious bigotry that their brainwashing religions fills their heads with.But its dumb to think they wish you peace and love.

I lived under the same illusions until i found that a bunch of muslim fundies, indian born citizens nonetheless ,set fire to a train with harmless civilians, including women and children in it and barricaded the doors so they couldnt escape and watyched them turn to toast ?.

posted June 04, 2009 11:35 AM         

First, we have the story line of a so called Christian member of a so called Christian church killing an abortionist who has reportedly killed 60,000 babies in his dark and bloody career and bragged about it.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100053

This story is all over the press who are in their usual hysterical hand wringing mode. THE ONE, THE MESSIAH has roundly condemned the killing of this baby killer and someone here questions whether we have our own homegrown Taliban among us.

Let me answer that question.

Indeed, we do have murderous radical Islamic fundamentalist Taliban among us.

Which brings us to the second story line and one you won't hear a peep about from THE ONE, THE MESSIAH and the drooling press who have their lips permanently affixed to the ass of THE ONE.

Two US service personnel were attacked outside a recruiting office in Arkansas with rifle fire. One was seriously injured and the other was killed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524139,00.html

The murderer was a black Muslim convert who traveled to Yemen to receive jihad training from an Islamic radical so called scholar.

There was another recent story, largely untold about 4 prison inmates who were recruited, radicalized and converted in prison by radical Islamic fundamentalists either incarcerated there or by radical imams permitted into the prisons to preach their message of hate for America into becoming domestic terrorists for radical Islam.

These were infiltrated by the FBI, supplied with bombs which didn't work and apprehended in the act of placing those defective bombs and arrested while in the act and charged.

One would think there are stories there and especially since THE ONE, THE MESSIAH has plans to close Gitmo, transfer murderous Islamic fundamentalist terrorists to US prisons and release other trained terrorists into the general population of the United States.

One would be absolutely wrong to think there's a story in there for the drooling in the bag for THE ONE, THE MESSIAH propagandist press to tell the American people.

This story of the murder and wounding of US service personnel..on American soil no less...simply doesn't fit the political agenda of THE ONE, THE MESSIAH or his sycophants in the drooling press.

The American people are already against closing Gitmo and they're even more against transferring murderous terrorists to US prisons and releasing other trained terrorists among the citizens of the United States.

Neither the drooling in the bag for THE ONE press or the MESSIAH himself want these stories told to the American people. That would only confirm what Americans already believe that terrorists should not be transferred to US prisons to further radicalize and convert our domestic prison populations to use as a weapon against Americans..and, they totally obliterate any pretense that peace can be made with murderous radical Islamic terrorists like those of Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas.

So, THE ONE, THE MESSIAH and his drooling press sychopants simply aren't telling these stories.

But, others who are not part of THE ONES drooling press are telling the story.

This is the scorecard of baby killers verses baby killers who were themselves killed for their murders of the unborn.

So far, it's about 5 dead baby killers v 49 million murdered babies.

I make that to be odds against baby killers being killed to be much lower than being struck by lightening. Yet, THE ONE, THE MESSIAH and his butt sucking press are totally hysterical with outrage...but not outraged in the least by the murder of US service personnel by radical Islamic domestic terrorists in the US.

Oh wait, THE ONE, THE MESSIAH wasn't in the least outraged by the actions of his buddy and domestic communist terrorist Bill Ayers and his equally disgusting, contemptible wife.

posted June 04, 2009 11:41 AM         

William Long could have been my son. Who is William Long? If you don't read AT or watch Fox News, you probably don't know that Private William Long, 23, was killed on Monday as he worked at a military recruitment center in Arkansas.

Long and another man, Private Quinton I. Ezeagwula, 18, were shot as they stood outside the Army-Navy recruitment center in Little Rock. Ezeagwula survived the attack.

The man suspected of shooting them is a Muslim convert named Abdulhakim Muhammed, 23, formerly known as Carlos Bledsoe.

My son joined the Army in April 2008. Upon finishing basic training in Georgia, he returned to the Phoenix area for a short period before shipping out to Germany. During this time, he worked at a local recruitment center, just like Private Long.

What motivated the shooting? Muhammed said he was upset with American soldiers for what they had done to Muslims "in the past". He must be an avid follower of the mainstream media. Nowhere in the MSM will you find any emphasis on what the American military has done for Muslims around the world.

As for my son, he finished his stint in the recruitment center (thank God), and is now in Iraq defending freedom and liberty. May he come home safely when his duty is done. Private William Long will not.

As Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces, President Obama was reflective and solemn when he commented on the death of Private Long. He issued a warning to anti-military radicals and terrorists hiding behind the Muslim religion to cease and desist from this heinous course of action. Finally, he spoke assuring words of comfort to Private Long's family. He thanked them for their loved ones service to his country.

ACTUALLY, HE DIDN'T! HE HASN'T SAID A WORD ABOUT PRIVATE LONG'S DEATH!

**note** Yeah, the Commander in Chief of all US military personnel is silent.

Obama is at this very moment bowing down once again to the Saudi king, apologizing for people like Private William Long. And my son.

posted June 04, 2009 12:38 PM         

as to the 60,000 abortions this doctor is reckoned to have performed, have you tried doing the math? he was not just an abortion doctor, yet he would have had to perform 5 a day for 30 years EVERY day of the year to reach 60,000. [60000/30=2000/365=5.48]. if you assume he took weekends off that makes it even more unlikely he could have done that many, and most were likely not late term.

the question is not whether he deserved it or not but whether it is okay to take the law into your own hands. say i decide you are a threat to national security. shall i just stalk you, walk into your house and blow your brains out? okay by you??

venus - by "take out" i mean assassinate. and i don't care how "pro-life" you are, this is terrorism.

there may have been 5 DIRECT HITS on doctors, but there have been numerous arson and bomb attacks on clinics as well. in the name of god. which to me gives extremist religion a bad name no matter WHICH religion it is.

if you don't think these people are undermining the lawful direction of society i would like to know why.

abortions will take place with or without medical supervision. they have been taking place as long as civilization has been around to record it. shall we just say "you got yourself pregnant (even if it was a rape or your life is threatened by this pregnancy) so you deserve to die with the baby"? who gets pregnant by themselves?

my aunt had a baby die inside her at about 6 months. she was in venezuela at the time, a catholic country. and she is catholic. she was at death's door and had been telling her doctor for a month the baby was dead before he was convinced himself, removed the fetus and saved her life. many late abortions have technically live babies which will never make it, or the mother's life is threatened. but everyone has heard these arguments.

posted June 04, 2009 02:25 PM         

"the question is not whether he deserved it or not but whether it is okay to take the law into your own hands. say i decide you are a threat to national security. shall i just stalk you, walk into your house and blow your brains out? okay by you??"

You attempted to rationalize Christians into the same phew as murderous terrorists. That's unacceptable.

As for whether I would think you have the right to blow my brains out...as a threat to national security; the people whom you should be stalking...on national security issues reside in the White House and on the demoscat side of the aisle in Congress...if national security is important to you.

But, there was someone else here at one time who thought he might like to stalk and shoot/snipe me..if only he knew where I lived. I asked Randall to send him my address, which he did.

Tiller got a rough form of justice for killing...his words, 60,000 babies. The guy who shot Tiller is reputed to be a nut. I don't know anyone who applauds this guy.

posted June 04, 2009 05:08 PM         

quote:

---

what do you imply by " take out ?"

Personal physical assaults ?

If you mean public demonstrations that are Pro Life, well there the Pro - choice side also does all of the same things and were the ones to start it in the first place.

I am pro - life and i dont appreciate being told its a result of patriarchial oppressive brainwashing and not my free will ,that I place equal value on the life of a baby - as i would on my own

---

How many pro-life speakers have been murdered? Or acid thrown in their face? Or even assaulted? How many pro-life buildings have been bombed?

Point those out, and THEN I'll see what you say about them having their own "Taliban elements." But not for demonstrating with signs and passing out lit (which isn't the Taliban MO).

Btw, you'd do well for your side to condemn the murder & other vigilante violence of this doctor (it's ok to say you think the doctor is a mass murderer, but by not condemning the vigilante, and by defending the movement as a whole, with nothing more of "you're not better than us," it looks as if you're defending the "Taliban elements" along with the more mainstream elements).

quote:

---

Why have an entire movement screaming such a private issue from the rooftops and engaging in propoganda rather than letting each individual contemplate their own case .

Why make it a Black and White issue of which gender is in power depending on whther they think its okay to kill a baby ?

And i cant imagine why, if there is an effort to counter pro - choice propoganda by those who are pro - life , should there be any problem to those who believe in individual choice ?

---

And as for talking about the pro-choice movement being one of propaganda & black/white issues with no shades of grey, I sure hope you were being intentionally ironic after you said you didn't care for others saying you were the victim of patriarchal brainwashing for being pro-life. Otherwise, pot, meet kettle.

I'd point out that there are other considerations, but given that the majority of people who are passionately involved in the issue (BOTH sides) tend to "think" more along the lines of bumper sticker slogans rather than actually THINK, I'll just give a pass on that one.

*

quote:

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From exactly which press are you getting the story of the murdered military person katatonic. Care to post a link here?

---

I don't know where Kat heard it from, but I've heard about it, too, both on the TV and the media. Google found me stories real fast from the MSM:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/us/02recruit.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gQACNshVFYt6M9CDykHq6DKqPhiwD98JVGFG4
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2009-06-01-army-recruiter-killed_N.htm

posted June 04, 2009 07:30 PM         

2. so jwhop, you asking me to bring it on? sorry. i DON"T take the law into my own hands. if someone were coming at me i would defend myself, and have done so. but i believe when we start individually deciding who gets to live or die then we have NO COUNTRY LEFT. if it is just a bunch of lone rangers and each for his own then there IS no government. besides, you're entitled to your opinion no matter how daft i might find it!

3. i didn't say "good on them" when someone shot reagan, though i didn't care for him or his government.

4. murderous christians are every bit as bad as murderous muslims. they are both acting as terrorists in these cases.

i don't agree with your theory that this was just a nutter, i believe the justification for his action is in your post and all over the christian extreme right press and media, and i believe YOU are in favour of lawlessness and blaming the victims.

like i said, do the math. that 60,000 figure is a gross exaggeration designed to upset people hugely and make the speaker feel holier-than-thou. get over it. abortion is legal because people died doing it when it wasn't.

these people are no better than PETA, using violence to protest harm to animals, or the taliban, who think we are all evil and that justifies killing us. if you don't like the laws the constitution makes provision for change. i thought, jwhop, that you were a fan of the constitution. the arms we have a right to bear were meant to be for work and SELF-DEFENSE, not executions!

and venus i agree with you completely here. apparently some people not only think screaming about it is well and good, but have made themselve judge, jury and executioner. i call THAT talibanic.

"If women want to abort they will, like they always have.Why have an entire movement screaming such a private issue from the rooftops and engaging in propoganda rather than letting each individual contemplate their own case ."

if women NEED abortions they will get them. why should they give their lives for the sake of a child that won't make it? granted some miracles do happen but if you were about to die because of a sickness of the fetus, would you not prefer to live to see another day and have another chance to bring a child into the world?

the catholics believe the fetus is more important than the mother. if there is a choice the baby wins every time. why? because the baby hasn't been baptized yet and the mother's soul is already protected by the church. very humane. who will mother the child? or her other children?

posted June 04, 2009 07:47 PM         

If I were going to take the law into my own hands, I wouldn't start with an abortionist.

No , I'm not suggesting you should attempt to do me in.

Thanks Dervish. Those articles didn't come up in my search on yahoo. One from the NY Post did come up.

posted June 05, 2009 02:09 AM         

I had not yet heard the piece of news that Katatonic implied in her first post.Hence my post has to be considred in that light.I assumed Kat was implying a general backlash against pro-choice propoganda, in absence of my knowledge of the doctor's murder - i am not in the U.S. at the moment and wont be for another 20 days.

quote:

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venus - by "take out" i mean assassinate. and i don't care how "pro-life" you are, this is terrorism.

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Katatonic , calm down.

When i said i am Pro-Life, i meant precisely THAT.It doesnt mean i am exclusively Pro - Baby life.

I disagree with you - this is not terrorism, this is plain murder and i am not going to dignify it as anything more than the plain run of your mill murder because it does not matter how noble to the murdered his intentions are or how evil he thinks the murdered is - as a justification.

The man is not some ,glorified by us " Pro - lifers " - HERO who is doing his bit for a Jihad that no one of has asked for .

He is a murderer who deserves to be executed.

Period.

I had NO idea of the hits on those 5 doctors you referred and i am 100 % with you on this Katatonic . No argument.

It cannot be allowed in any society that abides by law.

But i am against sensationalism of any kind of any issue that has one sided propoganda as its core intention.

My entire post should be taken out of context as a general one because i had no idea what you where implying in the first place - you didnt refer to this latest murder case at all.

Buts lets face it Katatonic , you should have been clearer and precise - your accusations , right as they where, end up making a blanket accusation on anyone who is Pro - Life and equating us with scum we love to blow up who have no respect for life or any integrity to boast .

No joke there

and then MVM , who obviously knew the piece of news you were referring to extended the list of vagaries us Pro -lifers should be ashamed of.

posted June 05, 2009 02:51 AM         

and i would like to add NOT Pro-Life.The very term implies a respect for human life ,hence the need to induce some sensitivity to the issue of abortion.

These bigots who think they are doing one for the cause should not be considered any diferent than anyone who is zealous about killing a baby.

posted June 05, 2009 12:26 PM         

but if you think there are not thousands of people, including ministers with air time and ORGANIZED attacks against abortion clinics involving bomb attempts etc, then you are still not in the picture. and i have heard people on the radio talking about how he "deserved" it - and jwhop in fact shrugging it off as "rough justice" - and how the murderer was a hero who has saved countless other babies from murder.

being out of the country you might not get all this. but talking heads in the pro-life movement have been vilifying this guy for some time now. if this was a one-off it was a well-encouraged act. and it was terrorism because though this murderer did not actually know the target he shot him for his beliefs. he doesn't think "such people" deserve to live and he believes it is his right to execute him. not all terrorists are muslims!

religion has its place and i don't knock it per se. but extremism is extremism and this is not a theocracy where the word or law of god supercedes the law of the land. it is a state of religious freedom where you can practice whatever faith you follow as long as you LIVE WITHIN THE LAW. some people think the law is no good and therefore this kind of thing is okay.

it is no better or worse than someone from the other side killing a soldier - who by definition has signed up to possibly kill people - because he doesn't like what they did to muslim people. why is that so hard to see? they are both terrorist acts.

i am glad you are pro-life. a lot of people think that term applies only, as you put it, to baby-life. never mind the mothers who might die carrying a less than viable "child" to full term. never mind those with other extremely legitimate reasons for going through something that is not exactly a walk in the park.

i happen to agree with you that people unwilling to raise a baby should not be having unprotected sex. however even protected sex has its mishaps. should all married couples abstain except when they are planning a baby? should we just keep multiplying the population because every fetus is sacred? as far as i am concerned late abortion is a very unpleasant process which very few people will go through if there is any other alternative. my aunt might have died before the catholic doctor agreed her baby was dead and poisoning her -where would her 2 living children have been then? or the 3 not yet conceived? their father was in a construction accident shortly after that and was seriously disabled for twenty years. was he going to raise those kids by himself?

in the end it boils down to people are going to have abortions whether it is legal or not. so it has been made legal, to protect not just the mothers and the doctors, but the children ALREADY HERE who would suffer if mom died or the new baby was horribly damaged in the womb.

and in the end it boils down to murder being UNchristian, and assassination for your beliefs being terrorism whether you are wielding a gun, a bomb or an airplane, and no matter what your religion is.

in the 70s i lived in britain. there were plenty of muslims there, but the terrorists were catholic - irish - if you could call sinn fein anything else i'd like to know what. they called themselves an "army" and their cause was actually pretty just. but tell that to the innocent civilian who was blown to bits by an exploding car or cast iron mailbox as he walked down the street.

posted June 05, 2009 01:52 PM         

Though I've asked you repeatedly to do so yourself going back months, you haven't and you don't.

posted June 05, 2009 03:55 PM         

'Do unto others as you would them do unto you'

'Judge not lest ye be judged'

'Turn the other cheek'

'He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword'

'Love thy enemy'

posted June 05, 2009 04:14 PM         

Again, generally those who quote scripture don't know a thing about what the Bible actually says..or what it says in context...and usually, those who do so don't so much as claim to be Christians...followers of Christ.

Speaking of babies and children, Jesus had this to say; that it would be better to tie a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea than to offend one of those little ones.

Personally, I think Jesus would find deliberate murder of those innocent little ones even more appalling than giving mere offense.

Yeah MVM Tiller was saving the lives of mothers to be. Not hardly, Tiller was enriching himself by killing their babies. Oh, and not only that but in direct violation of Kansas law in many cases of late term abortions which was Tiller's specialty.

posted June 05, 2009 06:31 PM         

You sure are quick to defend any kind of BS which tends to tear down western civilization. You're also quick to defend the indefensible as are most O'Bomber Kool-Aid drinkers.

Personally, I don't see any connection between the Klan, Tiller, the guy who killed him and/or I.

Are you always this incoherent and unfocused?

posted June 06, 2009 03:06 AM         

So she went to this man. And she was pretty emotionally torn up about it for a LONG, LONG time (still is).

These are the kind of scenarios he dealt with. I can't imagine the kind of toll it took on him. We don't know much about him as a person...and I don't feel it's right to judge him through his work and project him as a monster. For instance, when certain countries are at war or under a monstrous regime (take Iran when the Shah was overthrown), there were a number of people who needed operations and could not have operations since the hospitals were so overcrowded, that they needed a permit to go out of the country for operations. Otherwise, they would DIE. And often, too often, they did not GET the permission to leave the country... so they did die. During these times there were underground sorts who did forgery permits and passports to let them leave. Dirty, dangerous work, but it saved a few lives.
So tell me, were they wrong?
Of course maybe the scenario is extreme... but even then, it's still plausible. I mean, it HAPPENED.
And even then... in comparison... those guys were doing something *illegal* and yet still noble.
Yes, maybe there is an innocent child involved, but that child is likely to die painfully upon delivery more times than not, as is the mother. We can't automatically assume that is NOT the case.

So, I just can't fault someone going in to get this kind of thing done. We don't know the whole story. We NEVER know the whole story. We know an article here and there, and for your article, I will find one which opposes, always. That's what's out there.

I am not saying all women who get 2nd/3rd trimester abortions are in such dire circumstance, but I don't think it's right to assume all who are going for that procedure are just so cavalier about it. Certainly, there's something wrong to have to go through the process in the first place. ANd we don't know for sure. And frankly, it's not our business anyway.

I'm neither condoning nor condemning them.
I just know life hands people all kinds of situations and they deal with them the best they can.... I really strongly feel we should take all situations on a case-to-case basis and not make blanket statements, because we just don't *know*.