posted June 14, 2012 05:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
It's amazing to me that you'd try to pull off such a statement. Not only is it way off base from what this thread is about, but this is the person who won the Presidency, which is a rather elite position in the U.S. If we were to take your false statement as true, it would be truly remarkable that a person who's never had a job made it into the oval office. Yes folks, we have our first ever Harvard-educated attorney-turned-drifter/author as President.

It's outrageous statements like these that cause your disputes with the women of GU.

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He never had a real job! It was either in education or in government, neither of which is the same as running a business or working for a business, either.

Yes, a person who NEVER had a real job made it into the Oval office. That is why we are in the mess we are in, Case closed!

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posted June 14, 2012 05:07 PM            

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Ami Anne, that is an Absolutely
ridiculous thing to say...

posted June 14, 2012 05:10 PM            

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posted June 14, 2012 06:28 PM            

You said that we're in a mess because of Obama. That's factually untrue. Not only did Obama not cause our modern financial catastrophy, but he's done what he could to help the situation. Not all of his suggestions have been backed [enacted] by Congress, and even Congress has backed down from it's own [bipartisan] proposals in an effort to thwart the efficacy of the Obama Administration. These are widely known facts amongst people familiar with politics. No one with a logical mind would claim that we're in a mess because of Obama.

(Incidentally, Bush is still widely blamed (<-Click) for the financial crisis, though it wasn't his doing either, though perhaps a point could be made that a lot of lenders should have been regulated.)

posted June 14, 2012 07:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Logic is the use of valid reasoning. Valid reasoning in the political arena would require having a broad awareness of what's happening, and the facts behind what's happening. You keep making simple, unnuanced statements that betray the fact that you aren't aware of everything you could be aware of.

You said that we're in a mess because of Obama. That's factually untrue. Not only did Obama not cause our modern financial catastrophy, but he's done what he could to help the situation. Not all of his suggestions have been backed [enacted] by Congress, and even Congress has backed down from it's own [bipartisan] proposals in an effort to thwart the efficacy of the Obama Administration. These are widely known facts amongst people familiar with politics. No one with a logical mind would claim that we're in a mess because of Obama.

(Incidentally, Bush is still widely blamed (<-Click) for the financial crisis, though it wasn't his doing either, though perhaps a point could be made that a lot of lenders should have been regulated.)

Not only so, but to be more nuanced about understanding politics is to understand the myriad of professionals in an Administration or particularly a Presidential Cabinet. Obama's got a whole slew of advisors with all kinds of expertise in a wide variety of specialties. All of these people inform the character of the policies that come out of that office. It's not just some guy with no business experience as you're trying to put forward. It's a team of people with loads of public and private experience.

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O'Bomber picks these incompetents

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posted June 14, 2012 10:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
That's no answer.

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posted June 14, 2012 11:58 PM            

It's easy to prove Obama didn't cause this economic mess. Source after source will affirm the housing bubble as the cause. The housing bubble, not particularly caused by politicians per se, but rather attributable to unregulated lenders that were doing too many bad loans.

posted June 15, 2012 07:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Are we dealing in opinion, or are we dealing in facts? A faulty premise is easily undone...on the condition that it is truly faulty. You like to say that things are this way or that way, but you always decline offering any evidence that supports your conclusion.

It's easy to prove Obama didn't cause this economic mess. Source after source will affirm the housing bubble as the cause. The housing bubble, not particularly caused by politicians per se, but rather attributable to unregulated lenders that were doing too many bad loans.

I don't see human nature wrong. Mercury quintile Pluto. Not only so, but 8th house Sun and Jupiter, Moon conjunct Pluto, heavy Libra and Saggitarian influences, and a 7th house (others) stellium. I'm rather good and rational regarding human nature.

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Here is the thing AG. Think back to the debates or any political speech. Each polician monkeys with the numbers to prove he is the greatest thing going and the numbers show it. Have you ever taken a Statistics course? I had to take one to get a Psych degree. You can freaking make anything say anything. I don't talk numbers for that reason. I talk principles. You and I have a difference in fundamental thinking about the role of government. We see the people with respect to government, in a different way, too.

Those differences are why we see the individual politicians, at hand, in a different way.

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posted June 15, 2012 08:24 AM            

YOUR political POV must be based on a certain worldview which is different than mine. That is why the tip of the iceberg i.e our political choices are different. One must get to YOUR root. What is it? Can you explain how you see Government's role? How do you see man, in relationship to government.

I wonder if you ever had a small business, if you would change some of your beliefs. That seems to happen, in most cases I have seen.

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posted June 15, 2012 01:10 PM            

Not all political debates revolve around numbers, though, so that's not a reasonable blanket answer to why these debates exist.

I also talk principles all the time. There's several years of evidence to support this claim, and anyone can go back and see all the things I've written here over the years.

The role of government is determined by the governed in our country. I would say the issue is more related to beliefs about liberty.

The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty. Plainly, the sheep and the wolf are not agreed upon a definition of liberty. ~ Abraham Lincoln

In my view, Conservatives would be the wolves in this scenario. They are being "regulated" into not being exploitative. For this, they feel their liberty has suffered.

In your view Liberals would be the wolves. You view liberals as exploitative in that they restrict people and entities with regulation or taxation.

So who is preying on who? Which party does a better job of serving our entire society? In that we're probably both answering this question with our party of preference, the role of government seems to be the same. Through legislation our parties attempt to measures designed to help everyone get along better.

So then, if we're not really divided on what we believe our government's role is, we're divided on philosophy. Is it more beneficial for the government to eliminate rules, or establish them? Leaders of both parties would say that there's a place for both. Conservatives sort of have faith that people won't screw up when left to their own devices. That's probably a true sentiment more than it's not, BUT there are ALWAYS those that will exploit a lack of rules in order to do the wrong thing. Liberals believe that people want to do the right thing, but aren't always successful. Liberals would rather establish the boundaries of what constitutes beneficial behavior than letting things go unchecked. That's why so many safety measures have come from Democrats.

There's also a difference in how to promote national well being. Once again, Conservatives believe that people can and will take care of themselves. Liberals believe that some people will be able to take care of themselves, and some won't. The liberal view is more realistic in this instance. That's how we've ended up with the institutions of Social Security and Medicare (and now Healthcare reform). If you'd ever like to see Conservatives vote liberal, just get rid of Social Security.

Personally, I'm the eldest son of a Conservative small businessman whose business succeeded and then failed. I grew up in the church and wanted to be a pastor for most of my youth. I've done four years in the military. I've fended for myself for all of my adult life (only now really engaging in a partnership). I've overcome bad habits like smoking. I've overcome bad practices like debt. I'm self-sufficient and self-reliant. I possess every Conservative virtue, but I can't be a Conservative because I'm open to different ways of looking at things. I won't be hemmed in, which is exactly what Conservatives want of themselves (that's why you get these great talking heads to provide you with an opinion you can spread). I saved this great graphic I ran across once. It says, "A man decides; A slave obeys." In fact, the very definition of "liberal" is "Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values," or "Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry." Albert Einstein once said, "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

posted June 15, 2012 01:23 PM            

I just think O'Bomber will take us DOWN a whole new level as he seems like an idiot, to me. All his transcripts are being kept hidden. This has to be for an obvious purpose. Romney may keep us from getting worse, I suppose. Perhaps, someone who knew about economics and business, like Romney, could help.

It is a freaking nightmare mess, at present. I think we could both agree on that.

I think a great deal of your political views are based on your Dad's business failing. I understand that, having lived through that.

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posted June 15, 2012 02:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Interestingly, my Conservative father spawned two boys 12 years apart, and both decided to be liberal. Not so of the daughters. Now my dad, at age 62, is posting stuff on Facebook indicating a view distrustful of both parties.

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Well, now that I know about your history, I can understand your viewpoints, better. The government is so big that it prolly can never be fixed, I think.

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posted June 15, 2012 03:27 PM            

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