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Author Topic:   Are taxes oppressive towards the rich?
AcousticGod
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posted June 11, 2012 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Citizenship for sale: Foreign investors flock to U.S.

By James O'Toole | CNNMoney.com – 13 hours ago

Good riddance, Eduardo.


Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin drew public ire last month following the revelation that he had renounced his U.S. citizenship, a move widely seen as a tax dodge. But thousands of wealthy foreigners are lining up to replace him, making investments here and putting themselves on a path to citizenship in the process.


The State Department expects to issue over 6,000 "investor visas" in the current fiscal year, which would be an all-time record. Other countries, meanwhile, are following the U.S.'s lead, keen to spur growth in lean economic times.


"Our goal is certainly job creation, and that's what this program is all about," said Bill Wright, a spokesman for U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. "At the same time, it's allowing somebody from a foreign country to come and invest in our nation."

Under the government's EB-5 Immigrant Investor program, foreign investors can get conditional visas that allow them and their families to live, work and attend school in the U.S. To qualify for the visa, they must invest at least $1 million in a new or recently created business, or $500,000 for businesses in rural or high-unemployment areas.


The investment must be demonstrated to have created or preserved at least 10 full-time jobs for U.S. workers within two years. Assuming this condition is met, investors and their families graduate to permanent resident status, and can apply for full citizenship three years later.


While the EB-5 program has been around since 1990, demand has been surging as of late, fueled in large part by China's growing elite, who accounted for 70% of the roughly 3,500 investor visas issued last year. State Department officials expect the program's quota of 10,000 visas per year, which includes visas given to the spouses and children of investors, to be filled for the first time ever within the next year or two.

Some critics of the U.S. program question the fairness of letting wealthy immigrants pay for special treatment, while others say investments and job creation claims need stricter vetting. Immigrants who arrive via the program have no guarantee of recovering their investments, and may face deportation if they don't produce the required number of jobs.

Of the roughly 12,000 immigrants who've arrived on the EB-5 investor visa, just 39% have earned permanent residency, according to USCIS data.


There's also the lengthy application and approval process -- a 2005 study by the Government Accountability Office said the program's reputation for red tape had dampened interest among foreigners in the preceding years.


USCIS press secretary Christopher Bentley said in an email that the agency "continues to take steps to enhance [the EB-5 program's] efficiency and integrity." USCIS recently expanded the team of analysts responsible for evaluating EB-5 projects and proposals, he said.


Whatever the program's problems, interest has been growing in recent years, and meanwhile, the U.S. has faced increasing competition from other countries trying to woo well-heeled foreigners with the promise of residency or citizenship.


In January, Ireland announced a new residency program for immigrant investors, and Australia unveiled a similar program last month.


"Governments are reinvigorating their policy and their resources around this," said Eric Major, the CEO of Henley & Partners Ltd, an international consulting firm based on the European island of Jersey that specializes in immigration assistance for the wealthy.


Around 20 countries currently offer residency or citizenship by investment, Major said, a figure that may soon grow with economies struggling in much of the developed world. Major said he had met with five governments in the past eight months to discuss such programs.

Demand shows no sign of slowing down, either. International travel, banking and communication have become increasingly easy, while Asia, in particular, is minting new millionaires at a rapid pace.


"At no time in human history have we ever been so mobile and has there been so great a wealth effect from China and India," Major said.


In the U.S., the immigrant investor program has been responsible for at least 46,810 jobs and more than $2.3 billion in investments since its inception in 1990, according to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.


That's a small fraction of overall foreign investment in the U.S., but it comes at no cost to the government. Were the EB-5 program to meet its 10,000-visa quota, it would contribute more than $4.4 billion to GDP and create or preserve nearly 75,000 jobs annually, according to a 2010 report prepared for the government by consulting firm ICF International.


The EB-5 program is up for renewal in the fall, and while USCIS says it has "no indication" that the initiative will be allowed to expire, some supporters are more wary.


"We can't let our guard down," said David Andersson, an immigration attorney and president of the Association to Invest In the USA. "The deadline approaches and Congress just demonstrates a reluctance to get things done."

For foreign investors, Andersson said, the main appeal of immigration to the U.S. is access to good schools for their children or other family-related concerns.

That was the case for Jordan Gagner, a Canadian investment manager who came with with his wife and three children to Arizona in 2009. His wife had come down with a serious case of rheumatoid arthritis, a condition exacerbated by Vancouver's cold, wet weather.


"We just thought, we've got to get down to a climate that's more conducive to this disease," Gagner said.


Gagner invested in an assisted-living complex being constructed in Washington. He and his family now have green cards giving them permanent resident status, and plan on applying for citizenship as soon as they're able.

"We're fiercely proud about Canada, but there's things we love about the U.S. that Canada just doesn't provide," Gagner said.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/citizenship-sale-foreign-investors-flock-092400861.html

I keep making the case that our historical tax rates have always been higher and not driven people away. Now we see that for foreign millionaires the benefits of living here and doing business here outweigh tax concerns.

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katatonic
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posted June 11, 2012 07:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
on the one hand it makes sense. on the other hand, having watched several countries in europe sell vast amounts of their real estate and other bizzes to wealthy arabs, russians, etc, i wonder if it's not the beginning of the selling off of the usa?

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Randall
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posted June 11, 2012 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was under the impression that foreigners get tax breaks that US-based taxpayers do not (to attract foreign investing). At least it used to be that way.

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jwhop
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posted June 12, 2012 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"The State Department expects to issue over 6,000 "investor visas" in the current fiscal year, which would be an all-time record."

Crystal Ball time in the O'Bomber administration! EXPECTS

Hmmm, I'm expecting the goose which lays the golden eggs to peck on my door any day now!

Now, perhaps someone, who actually has a brain, would like to tell us why investors with money to invest, would want to invest in America with the highest corporate tax rates in the industrial world, the least business friendly administration and the most out of control business regulators on earth.

Just askin!

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AcousticGod
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posted June 12, 2012 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The article did deal with that, Jwhop.

Regarding your crystal ball hypothesis, they obviously have been watching the trend upward. It's not an Obama Administration thing. I'm sure the same would be true if McCain had been in office.

Regarding why they'd want to come here, anyone with a family can figure that one out.

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jwhop
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posted June 12, 2012 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anyone with a family can most certainly figure out that the US public school systems run by the National Education Association and the Federal Teachers Association are a national disgrace...which don't rise to the level of mediocre babysitting institutions.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what your piece of crap article covered acoustic. Facts are facts and no investor who actually has a brain is going to invest into the highest corporate tax rate system in the world...with out of control business regulators. Only one stipulation here acoustic.

They expect O'Bomber to crash and burn in November and a business friendly President and Congress to emerge.

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AcousticGod
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posted June 13, 2012 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree that our lower education is pretty bad. Our secondary education is the best in the world, though.

quote:
Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what your piece of crap article covered acoustic.

Nothing new there. You never were very curious.

quote:
Facts are facts and no investor who actually has a brain is going to invest into the highest corporate tax rate system in the world...with out of control business regulators.

Well, yes, facts are facts, but that doesn't mean your ideas about our corporate tax rates actually discourage investing, or business, or any other thing.

Incidentally, Obama's proposed cutting small business taxes some more, and guess who's not on board?

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jwhop
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posted June 13, 2012 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Only a total dunce would think high tax rates on business and investment incomeDON'T discourage investment.

You would fit in very well in the O'Bomber administration acoustic...and that's not a compliment.

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AcousticGod
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posted June 13, 2012 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, I think only a total dunce would look at people like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett, and believe that corporate tax rates are too high to encourage investment.

You would only have an excellent point if people weren't making money in America, and that's just NEVER been the case, has it?

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Ami Anne
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posted June 13, 2012 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jwhop:
Only a total dunce would think high tax rates on business and investment income[b]DON'T discourage investment.

You would fit in very well in the O'Bomber administration acoustic...and that's not a compliment.[/B]


I agree with Jwhop AG. We are discussing every day people, not Bill Gates etc

Most people are not the mega rich. Even if you took ALL the money from the mega rich, it would not be enough to fix the problem

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AcousticGod
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posted June 13, 2012 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, we're discussing business, and business tax rates. Jwhop's position is that they're too high, and yet America is still the most attractive place in the world for people seeking to make money, and one of the most attractive places for investing in business.

The idea that the business tax rates are too high is a red herring type of argument. It distracts certain lazy thinkers into believing that business isn't doing fine, when in fact business has been doing fine. Yes, the economy is down, but this tax rate hasn't changed since before the Great Recession. Not only so, but big businesses continue to break profit records even in this climate. Why would a wealthy foreign investor not want to come here?

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Randall
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posted June 13, 2012 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They make their money from capital gains, which is taxed reasonably low, so America encourages those types of investments.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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AcousticGod
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posted June 13, 2012 09:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Still, the wealth is acquired through business, which is making money despite the tax rates. The large investors like Buffett have bought companies outright. I'm saying that you don't hear him complaining about the corporate tax rate.

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Randall
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posted June 14, 2012 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heard a tv show just now complaining about how GE paid no taxes, but what they miss is the fact that GE has a lot of employees, and those employees pay taxes, plus they contribute to the economy with their take-home pay.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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AcousticGod
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posted June 14, 2012 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know that anyone misses that point. All companies employ people that pay taxes. It's never stopped the company from paying taxes.

Personally, I endorse GE taking the reasonable tax breaks afforded them for research and so forth, but they shouldn't be able to get out of their entire tax burden.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 14, 2012 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AG
You are a thinking person. I disagree on many points with you, and you with me. This is my question, though. Did you have some interaction with a big company that screwed someone you knew, like your father, or someone close to you?

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mercuranian
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posted June 14, 2012 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mercuranian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
AG
You are a thinking person. I disagree on many points with you, and you with me. This is my question, though. Did you have some interaction with a big company that screwed someone you knew, like your father, or someone close to you?



we are ALL being screwed by big companies EVERY DAY.
ever hear of Monsanto?

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Ami Anne
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posted June 14, 2012 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
YES You got me on Monsanto. I HATE them.
However, not all big companies are the evil spawn of Satan like Monsanto

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AcousticGod
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posted June 14, 2012 02:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know how that's relevent, Ami. I guess that maybe you see me as an activist or something.

Big business, whether by design or by accident, are screwing people regularly. Insurance companies putting in fine print, so that they get out of what their consumer believes to be the company's legal obligation; companies creating products that don't work (cars, for instance) or are dangerous in some regard (lead, for instance), or service providers that try to create monopolies in order to drive prices up. It's the pervasive reality. I leave the lawyers to sorting out these injustices.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 14, 2012 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I don't know how that's relevent, Ami. I guess that maybe you see me as an activist or something.

Big business, whether by design or by accident, are screwing people regularly. Insurance companies putting in fine print, so that they get out of what their consumer believes to be the company's legal obligation; companies creating products that don't work (cars, for instance) or are dangerous in some regard (lead, for instance), or service providers that try to create monopolies in order to drive prices up. It's the pervasive reality. I leave the lawyers to sorting out these injustices.


It's true BUT getting rid of big companies by so much taxation and regulations is not the answer. I guess everything is so corrupt that it needs an overhaul

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AcousticGod
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posted June 14, 2012 02:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We're not getting rid of big companies. They AREN'T being taxed out of existence. They're doing just fine with the tax load that they have. That was my point. This tax issue is a non-issue, and has been a non-issue for quite some time. Big business leaders want to make you believe it's an issue in order to secure more profit.

The money at stake can either go to the limited number of shareholders of that company, or that money could go to the government where it can pay down debt amongst other things. I would argue that the shareholders who must put up money to get an ownership stake in a company are probably in a better position to do without the money than the U.S. government is.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 14, 2012 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
O'Bomber wastes money like it is water. Your way would only work if there were a "with it" person as President.

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AcousticGod
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posted June 14, 2012 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You talk about spending as if the President is solely responsible for spending. He's not. Congress is as responsible as the President is. Economics are typically better under Democrats. The only time Republicans become fiscal Conservatives is when a Democrat is in office. Otherwise, they are equally spendthrifts.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 14, 2012 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
You talk about spending as if the President is solely responsible for spending. He's not. Congress is as responsible as the President is. Economics are typically better under Democrats. The only time Republicans become fiscal Conservatives is when a Democrat is in office. Otherwise, they are equally spendthrifts.


Well, you HAVE to have a president who at least has had a freaking job. Government work does not count


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AcousticGod
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posted June 14, 2012 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's amazing to me that you'd try to pull off such a statement. Not only is it way off base from what this thread is about, but this is the person who won the Presidency, which is a rather elite position in the U.S. If we were to take your false statement as true, it would be truly remarkable that a person who's never had a job made it into the oval office. Yes folks, we have our first ever Harvard-educated attorney-turned-drifter/author as President.

It's outrageous statements like these that cause your disputes with the women of GU.

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