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Author
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Topic: Donald Trump is Brilliant about Romney's Taxes
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katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 8367
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 21, 2012 03:14 PM
  
randall i realize you believe what you are saying. but AG takes in many different viewpoints and recognizes the conspiracy theorist/entertainer that limbaugh is, for what he is. i can only respect the fact that you changed your mind from its default position, but i don't see how you made the leap you did. as it happens, AG did the same thing, moved over to liberal from conservative instead of the other way around, but as i already said, he listens to a lot wider range of opinions and comes up with his stance after considering them all...anyone who needs the repetition of 6 straight weeks attention is trying to wash your brain... ami appears not to know what the word "ignore" means. i ignored her for 18 months, until she came here deliberately looking to marginalize me and belittle me. she even tries to spread malice about me to other parts of the board when i have stopped talking to her altogether(apart from the one comment above). humble is also a word that appears to be foreign to her. she even tries to spread malice about me to other parts of the board when i have stopped talking to her altogether. but i digress. just stopped in to see if anything had changed. business calls and i do not have time to make 50+ posts a day, nor would i want to! and you all are entitled to your opinions no matter how misguided i might think they are. i have run out of new ways to approach the same old arguments.
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Randall
Webmaster Posts: 20170
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 21, 2012 07:26 PM
Kat, actually, I don't feel like AG takes in several viewpoints--not in the way you credit him for it. To me, AG doesn't seem very open-minded. He may look at opposing views, but it appears that he does so only to construct arguments. Let me explain.I was raised in a very liberal family and just assumed things I was taught while growing up were true. I mean, these people who know more than I do were saying the earth is going be uninhabitable in 20 years (those computer models failed miserably, by the way, and none of the dire predictions came true). Rush didn't become a leader for me. I'm no dittohead. He showed me exactly what people who call themselves liberal were actually saying (on indisputable video). I went from laughing at Rush and mocking him to seeing that I had been assuming a lot of things that were not true. From there, I learned critical thinking and rationality along with parsimony and how it relates to pseudoscience. For instance, let's take income tax filing and its conflict with the 5th Amendment. Instead of researching what the 5th Amendment means and thinking critically, AG simply went to the IRS for his info. That's not thinking for oneself and being rational and critical--that's deferring to an authority figure as the final say on what is right or wrong. I am a rational and critical thinker. It doesn't take a law degree to know that the 5th Amendment says the government cannot force you to be a witness against yourself. That's why you don't have to take the stand at your trial. That's why coerced confessions are inadmissable. And the standing Supreme Court decision is that the 5th Amendment cannot be abridged. The taxing of incomes isn't unconstitutional. The way it is implemented and enforced is. You can never be made to give up your 5th Amendment rights. If you do, you do so voluntarily. A tax return can be used against you and even given to foreign governments. The Privacy Act notice is your Miranda rights that tells you this. But instead of exploring this new information and thinking rationally, AG goes right to the IRS and uses their canned responses. The IRS' Enforcement Agent Manual says that during an audit, a taxpayer may refuse to turn over their books and records on 4th and 5th Amendment grounds (that's right, no one has to submit to an audit). The agent may obtain a court summons if they want those records, but it is not recommended, because once summoned, the taxpayer must show up with the records in hand (or be held in comtempt), but the taxpayer can still refuse to hand them over, and that would affect voluntary compliance, so summonses should be used sparingly. It goes to reason that if you do not have to hand over your books and records even when summoned by court, then the same applies to a 1040. Many courts have found the same logic. Most of what I believe I have come to do so by looking at the data/research/info and rationally deducing the most parsimonious explanation. But whether I am right or wrong, I think critically and make the most rational decision after digesting the facts...while AG defers to authority instead, takes that as fact, and then closes his mind to divergent viewpoints except to fuel his bias. The two forms of thinking are mutually exclusive. IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 20170
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 22, 2012 08:33 AM
BTW, a fraction is less than a whole, if you want to get technical about it. So, yes, a fraction of society invest in the stock market. I think we can all agree that not everyone does and that a minority of American society are investors. So, if 1/1 is representative of all adults in the US, and only 1/10 invest in the stock market, that's clearly a fraction. ------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
Ami Anne
Moderator Posts: 34544
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted July 22, 2012 09:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by katatonic:
randall i realize you believe what you are saying. but AG takes in many different viewpoints and recognizes the conspiracy theorist/entertainer that limbaugh is, for what he is. i can only respect the fact that you changed your mind from its default position, but i don't see how you made the leap you did. as it happens, AG did the same thing, moved over to liberal from conservative instead of the other way around, but as i already said, he listens to a lot wider range of opinions and comes up with his stance after considering them all...anyone who needs the repetition of 6 straight weeks attention is trying to wash your brain... ami appears not to know what the word "ignore" means. i ignored her for 18 months, until she came here deliberately looking to marginalize me and belittle me. she even tries to spread malice about me to other parts of the board when i have stopped talking to her altogether(apart from the one comment above). humble is also a word that appears to be foreign to her. she even tries to spread malice about me to other parts of the board when i have stopped talking to her altogether. but i digress. just stopped in to see if anything had changed. business calls and i do not have time to make 50+ posts a day, nor would i want to! and you all are entitled to your opinions no matter how misguided i might think they are. i have run out of new ways to approach the same old arguments.
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AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 6339
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 22, 2012 12:22 PM
Randall, of course I went to the source for information about taxes. That's not simply, "listening to authority." That was understanding that we have laws in place, and the entity that has cataloged them for our edification would naturally be the IRS. Your "independent thinking" you yourself got from someone else, so there's an irony between what you think of me and what you think of yourself. Who is the tax authority, the IRS or some conservative site that's convincing people of something that will get them into legal trouble? Of course I'm going to go with the ultimate authority. You don't seem to have taken in what the Supreme Court said of this argument (as was reported on the IRS website). It is far better for you to be in compliance with the law than it is to try to subvert it. If you're a free thinker, you'd know this to be true. Why risk getting yourself in trouble with the law over something that's not up for your personal interpretation? Like most of my arguments, everything comes down to practicality. It's inherently impractical to set yourself up against the established laws of your country.I think maybe the issue is that I take things to their logical end. With the IRS issue, my "end" is adhering to the law at the end of the day. I start with the premise that's likely to have the best outcome, and work backward. Obviously, it's a requirement to pay taxes. Hence, they are collected, and people generally comply. When someone comes up with an idea that taxes aren't lawful, common sense tells me that's not true. (I saw a lien put on my parents house growing up due to tax issues.) I always endeavor to live the most hassle-free existence that I can, and as such wouldn't dream of allowing myself to be talked into believing there's a way around a law. That's what appears to have happened with you. The ideas are not your own. They originate with someone else, and they could very well get you into trouble. It's better that you be informed by actual law, and not believe what someone has told you on the radio or internet. quote:
BTW, a fraction is less than a whole
I know. You said "small fraction." I'm not certain whether it's an actual minority or not.
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Randall
Webmaster Posts: 20170
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 22, 2012 05:56 PM
You misunderstand. I don't advocate not filing. If you want to get wealthy in this country, you play by the rules of the establishment. As far as the mechanics are concerned, everything can be legally squelched, including liens. I, too, like to stay wihin the expectations of the "law" (not really the law in this case, but how income taxes are enforced). But knowing the truth is its own reward. ------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 6339
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 23, 2012 03:52 PM
I don't know that things can be legally squelched when people have been successfully prosecuted for them.IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 20170
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 23, 2012 07:26 PM
One way is through the use of Affidavits. A properly consructed Affidavit changes the burden of proof to the IRS, and that alone can solve many problems. The IRS has no choice in the matter. A few years ago I received a tax letter from the IRS that I owed X dollars plus interest, and by the time I was finished a few letters later, the IRS owed me. Of course, I'm not saying anyone would get that same outcome. But there ae legal channels to squash liens, seizures, and the like. ------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 6339
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 24, 2012 01:15 PM
Just read up on those. Very interesting. IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 6339
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 04:00 PM
Anyone know how much money is held in tax havens worldwide?IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 4245
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 05:20 PM
No but I betcha you will tell us  I have a sense the answer will be a stupendous amount. ------------------
As Angels above guide Human beings, Human Beings have the opportunity to be Angels on Earth, who guide the Animal kingdom. - Da Vinci IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 6339
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 05:26 PM
It's been in the news lately. My favorite headline was: Wealth doesn't trickle down – it just floods offshore, new research reveals - The GuardianThe reseach suggests that the range of money held in tax shelters is between $21 - $32 trillion. Tax Justice Network: Wealth Held in Tax Havens Skyrockets -WSJ Wealthy Stash $21 Trillion in ‘Pirate Banking’ System - CNBC Wealth doesn't trickle down – it just floods offshore, research reveals - The Guardian
World's wealthiest have 'deprived the taxman of up to £20TRILLION by hiding cash in tax havens overseas' - Daily Mail IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 4245
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 05:39 PM
Trillion, trillion?? That is impossable to comprehend.
from cnbc link
quote:
The report says much of that wealth is held by fewer than 10 million of the global super-wealthy and is handled by the world’s 50 largest banks.
quote:
The $21 trillion to $32 trillion estimate does not include real estate, yachts, thoroughbreds or gold bricks, which could also increase the number
Mind boggling. And the world is interested in Romneys` paltry havened or tax amounts Yet, naturally, the argument would be not every squillionaire is asking to be president of a country so my statement becomes moot. ------------------
As Angels above guide Human beings, Human Beings have the opportunity to be Angels on Earth, who guide the Animal kingdom. - Da Vinci IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 6339
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 05:56 PM
I think Romney has an estimated worth, and that worth comes into question when some of the money is hidden away somewhere. I saw Ann Romney's comments about taxes today. She makes some good points about their tithing and how Romney didn't receive pay for his governorship. It's just too bad he wasn't incredibly smart. He'd have found himself in a different place in this contest if he'd had the foresight to overpay taxes as some vision of patriotism. That would gotten him huge bonus points with independents. Then no one would question his taxes even if it appeared he was hiding money offshore. IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 4245
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 06:13 PM
quote:
He'd have found himself in a different place in this contest if he'd had the foresight to overpay taxes as some vision of patriotism. That would gotten him huge bonus points with independents. Then no one would question his taxes even if it appeared he was hiding money offshore.
He has showed little forsight throughout this entire campaign. MI was a shoo in for him but he kept saying the stupidist things. example: telling Detroit Econ Club (many auto workers & most laid off) "Romney highlighted his love of American-made cars by saying he owns a Ford Mustang and a Chevrolet pickup, while his wife, Ann, drives “a couple of Cadillacs.” Cadillacs retail for $36,000 to $74,000, according to Edmunds.com., an online auto market. One reason the Romneys may need multiple vehicles is that they own homes in Massachusetts and California, plus a vacation place in New Hampshire."
He lost many votes to say the least!
quote from : http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-24/romney-s-wealth -emerges-as-subtext-in-cadillac-comment-at-detroit-event ------------------
As Angels above guide Human beings, Human Beings have the opportunity to be Angels on Earth, who guide the Animal kingdom. - Da Vinci IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 20170
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 06:33 PM
It's more difficult to store money in a haven now, because with 911, it made it more difficult to find places that don't report to the IRS. ------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 4245
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 07:45 PM
I didn`t note the year the audit or article was in.
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As Angels above guide Human beings, Human Beings have the opportunity to be Angels on Earth, who guide the Animal kingdom. - Da Vinci IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 4245
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 07:50 PM
Looked at the cnbc article again and all it said "new report" and dated Jul 23, 2012 12:30 PM ET------------------
As Angels above guide Human beings, Human Beings have the opportunity to be Angels on Earth, who guide the Animal kingdom. - Da Vinci IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 20170
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 25, 2012 08:56 PM
Those must be legally reported amounts. Tax havens used to be ways to hide assets from the IRS, but even the Cayman Islands report now.IP: Logged | |
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