posted April 02, 2016 10:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:

Actually the ideas I had in mind were not about oppression, like men oppressing women, but something different. Maybe more along the lines of people oppressing themselves.

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This is the story of my Pisces SN/Virgo NN Saturn life. I could write a book, but I have to die first so I know how to end it.

Was it Aristotle or Plato who said discipline is freedom? I think we all know this. We're all searching for the perfect discipline to bring about the perfect freedom. Some of us choose religion, or a science like astrology, or commitment to people and ideas. Sometimes we're in the wrong discipline. Sometimes we've found the right discipline, but the poor slave teaching the discipline hasn't found his own freedom...or we're not ready. We haven't had our Saturn return or enough Saturn returns- lol.

(eta: I guess I'm playing with the word discipline a little, and saying you find discipline, or "structured training" within a specific discipline, or "branch of knowledge")

posted April 03, 2016 02:01 PM            

It's not your own language.

Your Gemini Mars is exactly conjunct mine, isn't it? Sorry but you just have to share.

I can only do freestyle musing about discipline as well, since there are so many things to be disciplined about, I get overwhelmed and dazzled at the possibilities.

My Pluto-sun-Jupiter t-square wonders:
So what is the bottom line, with respect to discipline?

What is the core discipline, the chief discipline, the ultimate discipline that unlocks all the others, or at least the ones that are truly evolutionary and not regressive?

Communion with the Source of course.

(Whatever one calls it...God, Allah, The Master Intelligence, The Conscious Universe, etc....)

Now, how do we achieve that?

A) Generically, ecumenically:

- Receptiveness. Love, prayer, meditation, being fully present in each moment, monitoring our thoughts so the egoic mind does not establish dominance.

These are some labels that seem fitting.

B) Specifically, religiously:

- Well is this even needed if you have a direct connection to the Source?

I ask myself, Why? To me it feels like, if you know someone and live with them, you are being told that you need to connect with them and advertise your connection through the phone, email, FB, Twitter.

But that's just on the soul level.

On an interpersonal level, religion can just become the binding language by which people establish connection and sustain it. It's like the nerve center of a macrorganism.

And it can be such a beautiful macro-organism, so much more organized and lovely...sublime...than singular organisms that are adrift outside of this linguistic "temple" where people meet.

The problem is, there are competing macro-organisms. Because tribalism is part of the DNA. There has to be, the keep the cell walls, membranes and bones intact. That's the Saturn of it...the containment.

With your Virgo NN conjunct Saturn, it makes perfect sense that you seek that containment.

And I do not think amorphousness (Neptune...your Pisces SN) is better than structure.

But one wonders how to fuse Neptune and Saturn. My chart is particularly prone to this, what with the Cap sun/Pisces moon. Saturn on the moon/Neptune midpoint.

Sometimes I think that would be The Solution, to merge those two planetary principles. That would get us back to Eden.

posted April 03, 2016 02:07 PM            

Inspiring to see how much mercy and compassion can co-exist with intolerance and Law.

Yin and yang

The beauty of paradox

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Afterthought...Could it be said that you moved from the realm of Muslim "oppression" (as it's perceived by most of the West) to Western sexual oppression (where one of the easiest ways for a woman to support herself without a college education is to use her body for it)?

Is your Mars the fulcrum of your nodal axis? I can't remember. If so, this only makes sense.

Afterthought #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNQFstyu_s

posted April 03, 2016 02:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by venus2tinkerbell:
Over the course of 30 years my mother's teacher led several people to Islam without mentioning many of the basic Islamic terms, and though Muslims may raise an eyebrow at this I can argue it is Sunnah (Islamic tradition)...Anyway, in the current environment, I list sources and resources so that people can search for themselves. Too often if you look up a quote on google from Qur'an or Muhammad, the first website or even the first whole page is filled with non-Muslim authors who know very little about Islam, or they are actually attacking Islam.

why are we afraid? Ask a Muslim

Pardon the corny back round music. There must have been a fatwa that we Muslims have to use that same track for every single YouTube video we make or we can't use YouTube. JK!

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Hehehe

I still need to watch this. Be back later.

But what you wrote about the teacher leading people to Islam...ties in with what I was getting at above: the movement from Generic to Specific. Cutting out the mental space for certain generic concepts and then filling in with details.

posted April 04, 2016 05:23 AM            

Anyway I have this breakfast wrap from Tim Horton's, I was jonesing for. But I lost track of time and forgot they stop serving breakfast at 12 I've still got my heart set on it.

You made some good points that just got me thinking more. I will respond soon. Sometimes the time it takes to respond is a bit more than I have. I'll get back...

posted April 04, 2016 10:19 AM            

16.01 Gemini Mars
16.01 Aries Jupiter

Your life sounds so fun and idyllic.

posted April 05, 2016 10:50 AM            

Watched the video...I thought it would be worse, with war footage (which stays in my head for a long time. ) I was aware of the deliberate, enormous propaganda campaign against Muslims, not because I had looked into those details specifically, but I know some of the think tanks and their agenda.

I get the basic thrust of DC politics and foreign policy. It's not hard: attack countries for their natural resources and then make it about Islam and terrorism.

Ongoing nightmare.

As for people being shaped by that propaganda, it's pretty disgusting. I'm glad I was such close friends with some Muslims before all of this started. The ones I knew had what I call HEART, and nothing can erase that memory. And you have it too.

So...looking at the "fruit" of Islam, I have been impressed with it many times. Not even to mention all the history...cuisine...architecture...

^ One of my favorite places in London, the Arab Hall of Leighton House Museum.

posted April 05, 2016 09:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Xodian, you're a Muslim...what is your take on this?

I supposed that, since you posted the article, you had somewhat verified its contents.

Here's a disputation of the 72 Virgins myth:

http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2007/03/04/debunking-the-suicide-for-72-virgins-myth/

Which actually makes no sense to me.

FEW things of a religious nature make sense to me. Very few.

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Unfortunately Faith, I can't access the article in question since my web protection program blocked it; Citing Malware issues as the reason. But if its related to the issue of credibility of Islam promising a nutter case receiving those fabled 72 conveniently available prostitutes after Martyrdom, it should be noted that no where in the Quran does it states you have to be a Martyr to be granted exclusive access to those 72 Harem members; You just have to be a believer and a good Muslim.

It should also be noted that the Quran promoted Interfaith communication and specifically favours good natured people from Jewish and Christian backgrounds as the type of people that God favours:

quote:

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“Those who believe and those who are Jewish, the Christians and the Sabians, the ones who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds; they will have their reward from their Lord and no fear will come upon them nor will they grieve.” 2:62

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... Which ironically is in direct contradiction with the actions of Extremist groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda who have actively targeted Christian civilians on their ongoing Reign of Terror.

It should also be noted that this is a big issue related to any given state with theological elements integrated within its Judicial and Political System; No room for reason and practically every given ruling is based on (usually extremely conservative) religious interpretation. Which is why many Islamic nations need to define a clear seperation between Mosque and state; A very essential concept for any good standing democratic society and the incorporation of a secular system of jurisprudence.

posted April 06, 2016 08:46 AM            

eta:

I don't like the word Extremist, because it implies that what the people are being taught is a part of Islam.

The number 72 is not mentioned in the Qur'an (and the link I posted earlier is a sound explanation of Houri). The hadith which mentions 72 is considered gharib, literally meaning strange, and categorizing the hadith as unauthentic. It is recorded, but no Imam or scholar if Islam would use it for Islamic education. Again, by definition, a Muslim believes in the holy books, and what the prophet taught.

The npr report mentions, "the man the sisters are married to" ... We practice polygyny, but our Fiqh tells us a man can't marry sisters. If you are opposed to polygyny, sisters or not will make no difference. My point is, it makes a difference to us- Muslims.

And if the rest of the world wants to get to the root of the problem it will need to make a difference to them too.

Why don't we question who these "Imams" are?

Why don't we examine the US-Saudi relationship?

The Saudi funded madrasas throughout the Muslim world leave out one of the most important aspects of Islam, Seerah. Why?
(I'll post the importance of Seerah in Islam later)

posted April 06, 2016 03:25 PM            

I am having a very Plutonian day! Mind crushed down like a car under a monster truck.

Be back when I can think again.

posted April 06, 2016 09:04 PM            

Right now tSaturn is on my Neptune, opposite my unruly Mars. It feels amazing! But so heavy the back of my neck and shoulders hurt. I feel Saturn transits physically.

posted April 06, 2016 09:45 PM            

quote:

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The majority of Muslims have no interest in a western model of society (what I find ironic, those of us in free democracies seem to struggle with this understanding).

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And I find that Muslims having an issue with the idea of living in a secular society to be ironic considering the fact that the man who has been hailed as the "Father of Secularism" was a Muslim born in Al-Andalus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes

His writings influenced Christian Europe greatly and he spoke out widely against the incorporation of religious delegation in affairs associated with the State.

posted April 06, 2016 10:47 PM            

In some ways we are mid-conversation in a conversation we never had.

I know you are just speaking universally about the political troubles, their origins, the propaganda and distortion. I already know things that I consider central to the discussion (that we never had yet) which run along those lines and are more detailed, branching out in many directions.

Just so you know. I'm not a typical American, politically. Because I don't pay any attention to the mainstream media.

"Two little bombs" ...

...speaks to me a story about how we are all prisoners of something and someplace. And also suffering doubly because we think we can prevent things we cannot prevent, and we (most of us) don't know where the spiritual exit door is. The whole social structure does seem ruined, everywhere.

I think the objective of the Project for the New American Century (I always harp on them) was not to ask the Muslims if they wanted to live like the West. It's the AMERICAN century.

Honestly when weighing the virtues and difficulties of Islam and Americanism (as it's practiced almost like a religion)...I don't know which is better??

I mean, why can't feminism, the simple idea of the sexes being equal...why can't that be part of the unveiling of the soul?

Because it's simply not true in Muslims' minds?

And Truth is always connected back to Scripture? Never existing apart?

Or, are they equal, it just seems like women are being oppressed?

quote:

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The number 72 is not mentioned in the Qur'an (and the link I posted earlier is a sound explanation of Houri). The hadith which mentions 72 is considered gharib, literally meaning strange, and categorizing the hadith as unauthentic. It is recorded, but no Imam or scholar if Islam would use it for Islamic education. Again, by definition, a Muslim believes in the holy books, and what the prophet taught.[/b]

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Thank you for explaining.

Btw I used to be somewhat like this with the Bible.

Frustrated that Christians who say they are Bible-believing aren't.

It just got totally off the rails. Cursory interpretations prevail. That's all most people have time for, in many religions.

posted April 06, 2016 10:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Xodian:
It should also be noted that this is a big issue related to any given state with theological elements integrated within its Judicial and Political System; No room for reason and practically every given ruling is based on (usually extremely conservative) religious interpretation. Which is why many Islamic nations need to define a clear seperation between Mosque and state; A very essential concept for any good standing democratic society and the incorporation of a secular system of jurisprudence.

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Well said.

Though I think all countries' laws reflect the changing morals of the people, and will always carry strains of religious law in their justice codes. And the legislators, in a blatant or understated theocracy, will ignore religious wisdom that stands contrary to what is perceived as achieving "the most good for the most people" (hope that is not a Karl Marx phrase I randomly chose from my brain!)

So if the moral majority of a certain place WANT certain religious conventions to be put aside, they will be....as in Utah, where polygamy is going strong, though it's considered morally reproachable to Christians in the rest of the country.

posted April 06, 2016 11:00 PM            

Calling for order in GU2.

posted April 07, 2016 01:00 AM            

Xodian, I have never in all my life and experience travelling all over the world amongst many cultures and communities ever shared an exchange like this with another Muslim. It's not your position on secularism. It's the words you use to argue your position.

AsSalaamu Alaikum brother

posted April 08, 2016 08:15 AM            

The science of Ihsan allows me to understand the benefits of your position.

The science of Ihsan is also the science of discernment, so..with adaab..

posted April 08, 2016 08:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by venus2tinkerbell:
In case I was misunderstood; I am stating an opinion, but with adaab (good etiquette, Islamic etiquette established by Quran and Sunnah), inshaallah (God willing)

The science of Ihsan (-) allows me to understand the benefits of your position.

The science of Ihsan is also the science of discernment, so..with adaab..

..AsSalaamu Alaikum WaRahmatullahi WaBarakaatuh Brother...?

("May the Peace, Mercy, and Blessings of God be with you" the greeting between Muslims, and first part of basic dialogue between brothers and sisters in Islam)

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for everyone's understanding, but between Xodian and myself.