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Author
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Topic: The Truth About Lafayette Park Protesters
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teasel
Knowflake Posts: 14705
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 02:36 AM
  
I also have thought about the possibility of police being frightened themselves, under certain circumstances - lashing out, out of fear - but other things were so wrong. Like dragging those kids out of a car, and tazing them. The people in the prosecutor's office, was it? Said they were the most innocent people they'd had in that office. And the rubber bullets flying at faces, taking people's vision. Driving cars into crowds. All of that is *wrong*. It shouldn't be okay, just because they have a badge.IP: Logged |
teasel
Knowflake Posts: 14705
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 02:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by StubbornVirgo:
I saw it as an attack. You might notice that I don't spread my business all over this forum for a reason. I don't like having it brought up and thrown in my face for a political reason. Not to mention, that topic wasn't even about COVID, but you made it about it. So it did qualify as an attack, to me.I'm sorry you're going through a rough time. Everyone is, tbh. It is not my intention to stir anything up. But I do point out when I see inconsistencies in places...i.e. someone calling out a person for a personal attack when I feel like they've done that same thing. I've called out multiple people on here for that, not just you.
I get it, and thank you. I've been kicking myself for not being able to let certain things go - I don't know why I can't, because I used to, all the time. I hate arguing. But I also hate what's been happening. I would never use something like that against you, or anyone. I'm sorry it seemed that way (and I'm sorry that I offended you). What I mentioned, isn't the only reason. Just part of it. I just needed to talk to someone, and disappear for a while. IP: Logged |
teasel
Knowflake Posts: 14705
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 03:33 AM
SV, do you think you could edit out most of that large quote? Thank you. IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 127484
From: From a galaxy, far, far away...
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 03:58 AM
When you try to block a police car, what do you think is going to happen? Just get out of the way! IP: Logged |
Blind writer
Knowflake Posts: 688
From: Texas, USA
Registered: May 2012
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posted June 08, 2020 05:45 AM
Civil disobedience is fine, but it’s going to lead to arrest every time, because that’s the procedure, and how the law works. Disobey curfew, refuse to move, gather unauthorized, you’re going to reap a consequence, because you’re endangering the community at large. There are many cases it’s gone too far, but these are not the peaceful protesters the media paints. Moving the line of a protest is almost always for their own safety, or to make way for first responders. That consequence isn’t necessarily “brutality” by default. Shooting bullets in faces is totally unacceptable. Suffering tear gas after multiple warnings to move and ignoring curfew isn’t.Media is also not immune. They’re equal to the protesters, and cannot claim special privilege when they also refuse to move. IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 11852
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 08:50 AM
quote:
According to the Scientific American and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, pepper spray is a type of “tear gas” or “riot control agent".
http://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/the-semantics-of-tear-gas-versus-pepper-spray/ Excellent article, give it a read. ------------------
Partial truth~the seeds of wisdom~can be found in many places...The seeds of wisdom are contained in all scriptures ever written… especially in art, music, and poetry and, above all, in Nature.
Linda Goodman IP: Logged |
Belage
Knowflake Posts: 3018
From: USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 09:23 AM
@ Teasel and JuniperIf the police asks you to move 1x and you don't move. The police asks you to move 2x and you don't move The police asks you to move 3x and you don't move. What it is you think the police should do? I am curious. It's one thing to criticize. Very easy to do. What I want to hear are practical crowd control solutions for the police... If you have them. IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 127484
From: From a galaxy, far, far away...
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 11:03 AM
Yes, because both cause the tear ducts to function. But one is an artificial chemical agent, and the other is created from a food product. That is what Barr was saying.IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 14731
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 11:17 AM
Tear gas and pepper spray are entirely different substances. The terms should not be mixed up as though they are the same things.Tear gas:
The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile; chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a tear gas commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. Pepper spray:
Components. The active ingredient in pepper spray is capsaicin, which is a chemical derived from the fruit of plants in the genus Capsicum, including chilis. Extraction of oleoresin capsicum (OC) from peppers requires capsicum to be finely ground, from which capsaicin is then extracted using an organic solvent such as ethanol. By the way, every person who has gone through 'Basic Training' in the military...at least back to the 1960s has been tear gassed...including me. About 20-30 recruits were herded into a room...about 20 by 30'...no gas masks. Instructors donned their face masks and set off canisters of CS tear gas. Most unpleasant and creating an immediate desire to be elsewhere. I've seen the reaction of so called 'peaceful protesters' to the tear gas used by police in the ongoing insurrections. There's no doubt in my mind that I was watching so called 'peaceful protesters' being exposed to CN tear gas, not the highly potent CS tear gas. I doubt anyone would be walking around in a cloud of CS tear gas. Pepper pellets...as AG Barr called them are a far cry from CS tear gas. Both are eye irritants but not at all the same things, in chemical composition or effects. Pepper spray is not a chemical concoction. Capsaicin is extracted from certain hot peppers by reduction...like making tea by boiling water and adding tea leaves to seep in the hot water. CS and CN tear gas are entirely chemical compositions. IP: Logged |
StubbornVirgo
Knowflake Posts: 2904
From: Welcome to Mercury
Registered: Jul 2015
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posted June 08, 2020 11:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Blind writer:
Civil disobedience is fine, but it’s going to lead to arrest every time, because that’s the procedure, and how the law works. Disobey curfew, refuse to move, gather unauthorized, you’re going to reap a consequence, because you’re endangering the community at large. There are many cases it’s gone too far, but these are not the peaceful protesters the media paints. Moving the line of a protest is almost always for their own safety, or to make way for first responders. That consequence isn’t necessarily “brutality” by default. Shooting bullets in faces is totally unacceptable. Suffering tear gas after multiple warnings to move and ignoring curfew isn’t.Media is also not immune. They’re equal to the protesters, and cannot claim special privilege when they also refuse to move.
IP: Logged |
StubbornVirgo
Knowflake Posts: 2904
From: Welcome to Mercury
Registered: Jul 2015
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posted June 08, 2020 12:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Belage:
@ Teasel and JuniperIf the police asks you to move 1x and you don't move. The police asks you to move 2x and you don't move The police asks you to move 3x and you don't move. What it is you think the police should do? I am curious. It's one thing to criticize. Very easy to do. What I want to hear are practical crowd control solutions for the police... If you have them.
IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 11852
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 01:03 PM
I personally never said they were peacefully protesting. Therefore, I was not implying it was uncalled for. I spoke on Barr and the interview, yes?  ------------------
Partial truth~the seeds of wisdom~can be found in many places...The seeds of wisdom are contained in all scriptures ever written… especially in art, music, and poetry and, above all, in Nature.
Linda Goodman IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 127484
From: From a galaxy, far, far away...
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 01:53 PM
It's semantics.IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 14731
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 03:09 PM
Enemies of the peopleCBS Deceptively Edits Barr Interview, Leaving Out Key Details On Violent Riots, Police Oversight
Some of the most colorful descriptions of the violence facing police officers at Lafayette Square were clumsily spliced out of the middle of Barr's answers to questions.
Mollie Hemingway
June 8, 2020
Key details on violent riots near the White House were removed from the broadcast of an interview of Attorney General William Barr on CBS News’ “Face The Nation” Sunday. Anchor Margaret Brennan repeatedly described protests as “peaceful” and the clearing of protesters to set up a stronger perimeter as unnecessarily rushed, contentions Barr strongly denied..... http://thefederalist.com/2020/06/08/cbs-deceptively-edits-barr-interview-leaving-out-key-details-on-violent-riots-police-oversight/
IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 11852
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 04:18 PM
No Randall, it is not. I spoke of Barr and the interview.------------------
Partial truth~the seeds of wisdom~can be found in many places...The seeds of wisdom are contained in all scriptures ever written… especially in art, music, and poetry and, above all, in Nature.
Linda Goodman IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 127484
From: From a galaxy, far, far away...
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 04:25 PM
I’m talking about the interview. It’s semantics. Barr was contrasting the chemical agents in tear gas with the natural ingredient in pepper spray.IP: Logged |
Belage
Knowflake Posts: 3018
From: USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 06:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
I personally never said they were peacefully protesting. Therefore, I was not implying it was uncalled for. I spoke on Barr and the interview, yes?
Well, yes.
But you could still answer my question, no?  Ok, I'll leave you alone, lol. Now I am left with waiting for Teasel to come enlightnen us with practical answers on how the police should have handled an uncooperative crowd. Past performance tends to be an indicator of future performance, so I will probably be waiting in vain. Yet again. IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 11852
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 06:09 PM
Thank you Belage. I never intentionally over looked your question.
If you want to reask me , please do. ------------------
Partial truth~the seeds of wisdom~can be found in many places...The seeds of wisdom are contained in all scriptures ever written… especially in art, music, and poetry and, above all, in Nature.
Linda Goodman IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 11852
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 06:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Belage:
@ Teasel and JuniperIf the police asks you to move 1x and you don't move. The police asks you to move 2x and you don't move The police asks you to move 3x and you don't move. What it is you think the police should do? I am curious. It's one thing to criticize. Very easy to do. What I want to hear are practical crowd control solutions for the police... If you have them.
This? Ask once, ask twice then deliver a warning.
I believe an effective warning would be select officers firing shots in the air followed by slow advancement. If no movement...
Then use necessary force to move protesters. Use serious warning before force. ------------------
Partial truth~the seeds of wisdom~can be found in many places...The seeds of wisdom are contained in all scriptures ever written… especially in art, music, and poetry and, above all, in Nature.
Linda Goodman IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 127484
From: From a galaxy, far, far away...
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 06:21 PM
It was the Park Police that ordered the crowd to be moved back a block the night before in order to protect the White House, because the protest had become violent. They needed to secure the White House by building a fence. The crowd wasn’t pushed back just so President Trump could walk to the church.IP: Logged |
Belage
Knowflake Posts: 3018
From: USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 06:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
Thank you Belage. I never intentionally over looked your question.
If you want to reask me , please do.
I appreciate being able to rephrase the question. You seem like a reasonable and level headed person. How do you think the police should handle uncooperative crowds? If a crowd of people has gathered, and the police asked them to move, not just once, but at least 2 or 3 times, and they don't move, what is the police supposed to do? What is to you the best course of action from there? I personally do NOT think the police should shoot people because they are not moving after being repeatdly asked. But between the extremes of shooting them (totally unacceptable) and not doing anything (unrealistic/problematic), what do you suggest the police should do? I am asking in good faith, because I am not an expert on crowd control. But if the police asks me to move, I know enough to move, and I also know that if I don't move, they will be repercussions, though I don't expect to be shot because after all, we are not in a totalitarian state - yet. IP: Logged |
Belage
Knowflake Posts: 3018
From: USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 06:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
This? Ask once, ask twice then deliver a warning.
I believe an effective warning would be select officers firing shots in the air followed by slow advancement. If no movement...
Then use [b]necessary force to move protesters. Use serious warning before force. [/B]
Okay, I just saw this reply after typing the one above. Thanks! :smilie: I can agree with you. But I can see firing in the air and the sound of gunshots could trigger people even more. Perhaps using a loud speaker, the police could issue a warning: MOVE OR YOU WILL BE PEPPER SPRAYED/TEAR GASSED, OR FORCIBLY REMOVED.... The thing is, how do you forcibly remove an uncooperative crowd of hundred/thousands? That is why things like tear gas and pepper spray have been designed, to control and disperse a crowd without the officers having to go mano a mano with individuals.
IP: Logged |
juniperb
Moderator Posts: 11852
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 07:50 PM
They (protesters) were not being cantankerous . I suspected they were uncertain what was happening. Yes, a bullhorn would have worked. I wondered why it wasn't employed. You are level headed and reasonable too! No snarking and I appreciate an actual conversation. ------------------
Partial truth~the seeds of wisdom~can be found in many places...The seeds of wisdom are contained in all scriptures ever written… especially in art, music, and poetry and, above all, in Nature.
Linda Goodman IP: Logged |
Belage
Knowflake Posts: 3018
From: USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 08:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
They (protesters) were not being cantankerous . I suspected they were uncertain what was happening. Yes, a bullhorn would have worked. I wondered why it wasn't employed. You are level headed and reasonable too! No snarking and I appreciate an actual conversation.
I appreciate thoughtful conversation too. I like to hear different sides of stories so that I can make up my own mind and learn something in the process. Thank you for engaging me. 
IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 127484
From: From a galaxy, far, far away...
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 08, 2020 08:33 PM
How do you know they were not being “cantankerous”? Were you there? The Park Police say otherwise. Projectiles were thrown (bottles and rocks). While only a few protesters were involved, the close proximity to the White House, the previous violence where they attacked the Secret Service and tore down the barricades, and their refusal to move, all warranted the action. Had Obama done so, there wouldn’t be a peep about it—just like when Obama arrested news reporters and killed American citizens with drones (family members of terrorists) without trials or due process. It would just be: “Move along. Nothing to see here.”IP: Logged |
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