posted January 06, 2021 08:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
I have the balls to say that I support BLM, I don't support insurrection.

---

posted January 06, 2021 08:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Randall:
It does prove her point. And the tactics used were ANTIFA tactics, such as using bike racks as police barricades and getting in the faces of cops.

---

Attacking cops is not characteristic of Maga. But, President Trump will be blamed whether it was Maga or Antifa.

posted January 06, 2021 08:39 PM            

You guys can’t even agree whether it is was

1.an antifa hoax pretending to be trump supporters

2. A brilliant move by genius trumpers

3. A hoax perpetrated and allowed by the deep state

Pick a position lol.

posted January 06, 2021 09:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Randall:
Some were ANTIFA. Some were BLM. The guy with the horns was a rioter from the BLM protests in AZ. The only question is who paid them?

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posted January 06, 2021 09:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by shura:

this proves my statement, ty

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posted January 06, 2021 09:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlueRoamer:
Lol.

You guys can’t even agree whether it is was

1.an antifa hoax pretending to be trump supporters

2. A brilliant move by genius trumpers

3. A hoax perpetrated and allowed by the deep state

Pick a position lol.

I’ll tell you what it is, it’s a bunch of morons following the directions of a moron

---

it's brilliant no matter who did it tbh, people are paying attention and it was a good target, and good day for it too

morons destroy local businesses and random cars protesting something unrelated

this hit where it needed to when it needed to and got the message across

posted January 06, 2021 09:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumuzi:
it's brilliant no matter who did it tbh, people are paying attention and it was a good target, and good day for it too

morons destroy local businesses and random cars protesting something unrelated

this hit where it needed to when it needed to and got the message across

---

posted January 06, 2021 09:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
What message? That idiots who believe conspiracy theories, shouldn't be encouraged?

---

that people are sick of what's going on

posted January 07, 2021 04:14 AM            

How can you fight for democracy with violence? That is a contradiction in terms. It's a sad day for the American people who just want the truth, and I mean that with empathy.

posted January 07, 2021 06:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I don't care who these people were. When civility goes out the window and you devolve into violence to get a point across, you are proving you have lost. When you resort to brute force, it is no longer about the validity or policies of one party over another, it is Neanderthal nonsense.

How can you fight for democracy with violence? That is a contradiction in terms. It's a sad day for the American people who just want the truth, and I mean that with empathy.

---

i legit laughed at this, it's like you have no concept of history or the fact that all systems of government have a bloody history and wars don't exist with purpose in your head

fighting for democracy is part of how it's achieved

when the powers that be are corrupt fighting is how people gain back power, this has always been true

pacifism has been proven to set things back in spite of its good pr it doesn't actually accomplish much

violence =/= losing, at all, especially in the context of something like this, and all you have to do is look at history (of this country as well) and around at the world to see that

what you said is sheer ignorance and willful blindness just because violence doesn't sit well with you, and i get it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths but if it didn't work we'd never have war and you absolutely can use violence to install a new or fix a corrupt system

that's how it's done when people take control of things when protests and **** don't work

transfer of power isn't generally peaceful, it's cute that you'd like the world to work in ideals but it doesn't

humans have a violent side to them, intrinsic to our nature, it can be used for good or bad and when used for ideals it's at its finest

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

^ what a "neanderthal", him and all the founding fathers 🤣 and revolutionaries who are the reason this country even exists in the first place

and all those "neanderthals" who have died in wars so you could have the life you do now, what "losers"

posted January 07, 2021 06:29 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumuzi:
i legit laughed at this, it's like you have no concept of history or the fact that all systems of government have a bloody history and wars don't exist

fighting for democracy is part of how it's achieved

when the powers that be are corrupt fighting is how people gain back power, this has always been true

pacifism has been proven to set things back in spite of its good pr it doesn't actually accomplish much

violence =/= losing, at all, especially in the context of something like this, and all you have to do is look at history (of this country as well) and around at the world to see that

what you said is sheer ignorance and willful blindness just because violence doesn't sit well with you, and i get it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths but if it didn't work we'd never have war and you absolutely can use violence to install a new or fix a corrupt system

that's how it's done when people take control of things when protests and **** don't work

transfer of power isn't generally peaceful, it's cute that you'd like the world to work in ideals but it doesn't

---

posted January 07, 2021 06:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumuzi:
that people are sick of what's going on

you can't even for a second step back and admire that they got in on a day like today?

---

posted January 07, 2021 06:37 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
Did you support the BLM protests? I don’t remember you saying this at the time. A few friends of mine reminded me that this is always how change has had to occur.

---

i said they picked ineffectual targets and didn't impress me because they weren't doing anything that got their point across in a well organized manner

if i want to protest police brutality im not going to firebomb random cars and loot local businesses while people wave signs to show me what this **** is all about

so did i support it? no because it was ass backwards retard **** , had they been storming police stations and the like? 100% would have

i applaud good strategy regardless of side, actual bold and intelligent moves

i'm not 100% pro cop if that's what you're asking, though i think the blm movement misses the mark in many ways and is largely poorly organized ********

i also have stated that statistically white men are the majority killed by cops and that the actual major factor in being shot by cops is mental illness over skin color, but that's a conversation no one wants to have because they fixate on race

posted January 07, 2021 06:40 AM            

Trump had been planning this for months as Plan C, ever since he got wind of the Public mood against him from August-September 2020.

Plan A was to scuttle Postal ballots using DeJoy. That failed.

Plan B: Use Courts. Failed again.

Plan C: Attempt Insurrection. The actual plan could have been to kill off both Pence and Pelosi so that Trump could declare Martial Law.

Since Putin does the advanced thinking for Trump, I am sure there is a Plan D and Plan E as well.

My guess of Plan D is to attack Iran.

Plan E is full scorched Earth, usage of the Nuclear Football. Pence, Romney etc know about this and are probably working on the 25th Amendment as I write.

posted January 07, 2021 06:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by teasel:
People are beyond sick of *this* going on. I don’t admire it. I was scared in April, when they were threatening Whitmer, Amy Acton, Governor DeWine, the governors in Illinois and where else? I haven’t shut up about that, because people with guns were protesting and then storming capitols - and people here told me it was their constitutional right. The FBI arrested people who wanted to publicly execute politicians.

---

show me a system or government or a country that was founded on drum circles and sign waving

the reality is whether or not it scares you there's legitimate reasons why people do these things, it's not nonsensical and it's rooted in the darker side of being human

however power in general is the darker side of being human, any form of government is tyranny over some and democracy is tyranny of the majority over the minority

the nature of power isn't pretty, neither is how it's achieved or held

i know you get scared of things but what do you expect? there's mass corruption on both sides of the spectrum in this country's political system and as unfortunate as it may be actions speak louder than words at a certain point

posted January 07, 2021 09:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumuzi:
i legit laughed at this, it's like you have no concept of history or the fact that all systems of government have a bloody history and wars don't exist with purpose in your head

fighting for democracy is part of how it's achieved

when the powers that be are corrupt fighting is how people gain back power, this has always been true

pacifism has been proven to set things back in spite of its good pr it doesn't actually accomplish much

violence =/= losing, at all, especially in the context of something like this, and all you have to do is look at history (of this country as well) and around at the world to see that

what you said is sheer ignorance and willful blindness just because violence doesn't sit well with you, and i get it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths but if it didn't work we'd never have war and you absolutely can use violence to install a new or fix a corrupt system

that's how it's done when people take control of things when protests and **** don't work

transfer of power isn't generally peaceful, it's cute that you'd like the world to work in ideals but it doesn't

humans have a violent side to them, intrinsic to our nature, it can be used for good or bad and when used for ideals it's at its finest

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

^ what a "neanderthal", him and all the founding fathers 🤣 and revolutionaries who are the reason this country even exists in the first place

and all those "neanderthals" who have died in wars so you could have the life you do now, what "losers"

---

What is amusing (in the most deadpan way possible) is that people still think 'peace' can be achieved through war. All that war achieves is to bully people into submission. That is not peace, it is control through survival of the fittest. With the size of our brains, you would think we would have evolved past that. As long as war is used as the tool to rule, we will never have a 'civilisation'.

You seem to like the drama of violence Dumuzi, why not join the army? Get your teeth right in it, crawl around in the severed limbs and blood of your brothers and sisters. Then come back and tell me war 'works'.

I've worked with veterans who were lucky enough to 'survive', riddled with lifelong physical disabilities and PTSD that would have you jumping from a bridge. And you know what? NOT ONE OF THEM continued to support war. I think the term I heard most was that it was 'pointless'. You know why? Because it's rarely ever about 'peace' - it's about supremacy, control of resources and territory and world power.

posted January 07, 2021 09:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
What is amusing (in the most deadpan way possible) is that people still think 'peace' can be achieved through war. All that war achieves is to bully people into submission. That is not peace, it is control through survival of the fittest. With the size of our brains, you would think we would have evolved past that. As long as war is used as the tool to rule, we will never have a 'civilisation'.

You seem to like the drama of violence Dumuzi, why not join the army? Get your teeth right in it, crawl around in the severed limbs and blood of your brothers and sisters. Then come back and tell me war 'works'.

I've worked with veterans who were lucky enough to 'survive', riddled with lifelong physical disabilities and PTSD that would have you jumping from a bridge. And you know what? NOT ONE OF THEM continued to support war. I think the term I heard most was that it was 'pointless'. You know why? Because it's rarely ever about 'peace' - it's about supremacy, control of resources and territory and world power.

---

who said anything about achieving peace? i didn't and neither did you until just now

what i responded to was you speaking about achieving democracy (a system of government) not "peace" so it's a funny little switch around you did there, but it very much misrepresents what we were talking about and paints a very different picture

if we're going to talk about peace then by nature it is not an achievable goal, it's a nice ideal, something that can last momentarily but it is not a permanent state

this is simply the way the world is ordered

you can't eliminate the things you find distasteful within our nature simply because you dislike them, all things both "good" and "bad" exist and serve us in this world

there is no civilization that benefits and respects all, and there is no way to control people en masse where they are not bullied and threatened into submission (being put in jail for putting a substance in your body is cruel no? jail in and of itself is far worse than some of the "crimes" that a person can be put there for and yet this is not seen as a "violent" act in spite of the damage it does) this is the nature of power

however to get back to what we were speaking about, all systems of power are both installed through violence and maintained that way ultimately, this is also how you dismantle them

you can not do this peacefully, that just isn't the nature of the beast

to turn a blind eye to reality in favor of ideals is very cute, but it doesn't change how the world actually works

to expect law and order without sacrifice is strange to say the least

also it's rather silly to say humans should have evolved past the things that occur in the world every day, if that were true then these things would not exist and they would not be intrinsic to the state of being human

though life in and of itself is violent and lacks peace

even nature is not always peaceful

peace is a temporary state and no matter where you try to uphold it as best as possible you will find the need to defend

you can maintain peace (more or less, not entirely) within an area for x amount of time, but there will always be a price paid to have it

do i like the drama of violence? not any more than i like the serenity of peace, which is of course preferable

being capable of judging an act of war as a solid move however is just that, an objective observation coupled with an understanding of what it is

i'm not army material personally, as in legitimately would not be fit for many reasons health included (though this is absolutely irrelevant, many people who benefit from wars do not engage in them yourself included)

that being said while i feel for those who experience horrible things, when they do it voluntarily that's on them no? plenty of people endure horrors, is that sad? sure

does that mean we can erase them or that in the bigger picture these things don't work? no

what you're doing here is an appeal to emotions, and while you make a very nice emotional case it's void of logic and not in line with reality

war is money, war is protection, war keeps nations afloat and empires growing, war upholds systems of power

it is not an instrument of peace though through war peace in a certain area can be maintained, outside of that area not so much but we've already discussed the nature of that

control of resources is very important to survival btw, strength of a nation is integral to the livelihood of the people within it

of course people who have been through traumatic things and seek out help for them may have a change of heart, though that's not even all soldiers (the woman who was shot in the capitol was herself a veteran) and their opinions do not change reality

perhaps their reasons for joining the military coupled with their experiences, trauma, and injuries left them jaded and seeing a different side of things but are we going to ignore career military personnel? or people who do multiple tours purposely and are proud to have served?

you're legitimately providing a one sided narrative, appealing to the emotions, and trying to have a discussion that never existed

i said pacifism does not work to gain power over corrupt systems, no doublespeak 1984 "war is peace" **** from me

have the conversation we were having and use logic not emotion to do it because while you painted a very visceral image you didn't address any of what was actually said and everything you've said is rather misleading

posted January 07, 2021 11:20 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumuzi:
who said anything about achieving peace? i didn't and neither did you until just now

what i responded to was you speaking about achieving democracy (a system of government) not "peace" so it's a funny little switch around you did there, but it very much misrepresents what we were talking about and paints a very different picture

if we're going to talk about peace then by nature it is not an achievable goal, it's a nice ideal, something that can last momentarily but it is not a permanent state

this is simply the way the world is ordered

you can't eliminate the things you find distasteful within our nature simply because you dislike them, all things both "good" and "bad" exist and serve us in this world

there is no civilization that benefits and respects all, and there is no way to control people en masse where they are not bullied and threatened into submission (being put in jail for putting a substance in your body is cruel no? jail in and of itself is far worse than some of the "crimes" that a person can be put there for and yet this is not seen as a "violent" act in spite of the damage it does) this is the nature of power

however to get back to what we were speaking about, all systems of power are both installed through violence and maintained that way ultimately, this is also how you dismantle them

you can not do this peacefully, that just isn't the nature of the beast

to turn a blind eye to reality in favor of ideals is very cute, but it doesn't change how the world actually works

to expect law and order without sacrifice is strange to say the least

also it's rather silly to say humans should have evolved past the things that occur in the world every day, if that were true then these things would not exist and they would not be intrinsic to the state of being human

though life in and of itself is violent and lacks peace

even nature is not always peaceful

peace is a temporary state and no matter where you try to uphold it as best as possible you will find the need to defend

you can maintain peace (more or less, not entirely) within an area for x amount of time, but there will always be a price paid to have it

do i like the drama of violence? not any more than i like the serenity of peace, which is of course preferable

being capable of judging an act of war as a solid move however is just that, an objective observation coupled with an understanding of what it is

i'm not army material personally, as in legitimately would not be fit for many reasons health included (though this is absolutely irrelevant, many people who benefit from wars do not engage in them yourself included)

that being said while i feel for those who experience horrible things, when they do it voluntarily that's on them no? plenty of people endure horrors, is that sad? sure

does that mean we can erase them or that in the bigger picture these things don't work? no

what you're doing here is an appeal to emotions, and while you make a very nice emotional case it's void of logic and not in line with reality

war is money, war is protection, war keeps nations afloat and empires growing, war upholds systems of power

it is not an instrument of peace though through war peace in a certain area can be maintained, outside of that area not so much but we've already discussed the nature of that

control of resources is very important to survival btw, strength of a nation is integral to the livelihood of the people within it

of course people who have been through traumatic things and seek out help for them may have a change of heart, though that's not even all soldiers (the woman who was shot in the capitol was herself a veteran) and their opinions do not change reality

perhaps their reasons for joining the military coupled with their experiences, trauma, and injuries left them jaded and seeing a different side of things but are we going to ignore career military personnel? or people who do multiple tours purposely and are proud to have served?

you're legitimately providing a one sided narrative, appealing to the emotions, and trying to have a discussion that never existed

i said pacifism does not work to gain power over corrupt systems, no doublespeak 1984 "war is peace" **** from me

have the conversation we were having and use logic not emotion to do it because while you painted a very visceral image you didn't address any of what was actually said and everything you've said is rather misleading

if you'd like to have an honest discussion in good faith i'm all for it, but that's not what you've done here

---

Dumuzi, I read your first line. This is the second time I have had to re-read your post on your behalf to quote you

quote:

---

transfer of power isn't generally peaceful, it's cute that you'd like the world to work in ideals but it doesn't

---

I'm probably as rooted in my opinions as you are, so it's probably as pointless as war to continue to argue.

I am confident in what my experiences, studies and reflections have taught me about war. If you want to change my opinion, you'll need truckloads of hard evidence and about 30 years. Life's too short for that *tips hat*

posted January 07, 2021 11:42 AM            

your opinion has little to do with the overall objective reality of the history of civilization, and you have yet to address any points i've made at any point in time

the world doesn't work in ideals is not opinion it is fact, it is objectively true that power has been largely achieved through violence throughout human history not opinion

in your 30 years of experience you'd think you'd be able to comprehend things that are said to you but i guess not

posted January 07, 2021 12:51 PM            

BLM protests = "When the looting starts, the shooting starts."

White supremacists try to overthrow a democratic election - and don't get the ballots, because of some quick-thinking aides: "We know your pain, and we love you."