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Author Topic:   Biden's Executive Order and Women's sports
Belage
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posted January 26, 2021 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BIden's new Executive Order gives transgenders full legal ammunition and protection to enter women's sports and compete against women.

All over USA, natural born women (now renamed cis-women) are rejoicing over this victory of equality, inclusion and representation in America!

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BlueRoamer
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posted January 26, 2021 07:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who cares what is there like 5 trans people in the world

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shura
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posted January 26, 2021 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Women care, Blue. This is where we learn who the real misogynists are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyO7oHkVMgc&feature=youtu.be

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Belage
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posted January 26, 2021 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From The Wire:
Trans Athletes Are Posting Victories and Shaking Up Sports
Transgender athletes at all levels of sport are winning medals, spurring a contentious debate over the future of gendered competition.

https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up -sports/

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Belage
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posted January 26, 2021 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRoamer:
Who cares what is there like 5 trans people in the world

That answer tells me you haven't stepped foot in women sports in the past 5 years.

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BlueRoamer
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posted January 26, 2021 09:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
literally no one cares about this at all

focus on your own issues

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Belage
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posted January 26, 2021 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will use that argument next time I have nothing of value to add to a conversation but I can't keep my itchy fingers off a thread:

"No one cares about that at all."

Genius!

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shura
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posted January 26, 2021 11:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not your best day here, Blue.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted January 27, 2021 03:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So, I guess in order to get justifiably outraged about this we need to establish that despite years of female hormones and the suppression of testosterone, that having been born a man still gives you an athletic advantage against a woman.

I don't think height counts, plenty tall women out there that we don't disqualify.

Has anyone established this?

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Belage
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posted January 27, 2021 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No.

The burden should be on the ones who insist on pushing transgenders into women's sports to establish that despite years of female hormones and the suppression of testosterone, that having been born a man DOES NOT gives you an athletic advantage against a woman.

And you are assuming all transgenders have had years of female hormones and suppression of testosterone. Google CeCe Teller, formerly known as Craig teller, who in 2018 competed in the men's team and won no medals, then changes her sex and competes as a woman in 2019 and wins THE National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) national championship in athletics.

That natural born woman who came in second behind Teller, how do you think she feels?

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted January 27, 2021 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well yeah, it needs to be established one way or another. And until it is, we can't really identify any clear inequalities.

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Belage
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posted January 27, 2021 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So in the meantime, let's force transgenders on women's sports in the spirit of equity, equality and whatever sounds good now?!...

It is another example of people born with penises continuing to impose their will on people born with vaginas.

I don't see the elite male athletes worrying at all about female to male transgenders invading their world.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted January 27, 2021 10:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Obviously I don't know the motives of every transgender person, but they are individuals. Transgender people have been around for yonks. Gender dysphoria is not a new thing. Many transgender men are also gay and not in any way interested in pushing an alpha male agenda on women. In fact, amongst my friends and acquaintances (current and past) I haven't known one who expressed this. Sure, there was a prisoner who pretended he was transgender in order to be moved to a women's prison so he could rape women, but the transgender community is not responsible for the actions of a criminal who decided to exploit transgenderism. He's just a criminal, transgender or not.

I'm interested in how you came to the conclusion that they are all participating to advance a patriarchal agenda?

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Face a situation fearlessly, and there is no situation to face
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Belage
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posted January 27, 2021 10:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I said or meant that all transgenders are participating in advancing a patriarchal agenda.

I am not trying to keep transgenders from living their best lives. But I do care about the imposition of transgenders on women's sports.

I am not going to be bleeding heart over transgender athletes who could very easily create their own leagues and compete against each other. Just like special olympics athletes do. What's keeping them?

Right now, all I care about are the women who are going to be deprived of medals and scholarships because someone born with a penis is going to steal their spot. Or the countless girls and women who are not going to try hard at excelling anymore because they know some former dude can come and beat them. This invalidates Title IX which was created decades ago to advance the cause of women in sports. And yes, that advances a patriarchal agenda.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted January 27, 2021 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Belage:

It is another example of people born with penises continuing to impose their will on people born with vaginas.


That was how I interpreted the above, sorry if I misinterpreted you.

It's a difficult one. I think part of the problem is in definitions. What makes a man a woman? Someone will have to do the thankless but brave thing and create a definition for a woman which incorporates men who have transitioned to women. If the concern is an infringement on women's rights by women with penises, then maybe the bar for allowing trans women to participate fully as women, should be set at a 'full transition', including removal of the penis.

The next difficulty is that this marginalises people who wish to live as a woman in every other respect (including hormonal make-up) but wish to keep their penis.

It's hard to please everyone.

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Face a situation fearlessly, and there is no situation to face
~ Florence Scovel Shinn ~

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Belage
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posted January 27, 2021 11:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can fully transition someone, remove their penis, but they can still have the bigger skeleton, bigger lungs, stronger autonomic system, better muscle memory, especially if they are athletes. And we are talking about athletes here, not people who have been sitting around taking female hormones and eating bonbons.

Pound for pound, height for height, nature designed men to be stronger, faster, more powerful than women. It's in their dna.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted January 28, 2021 03:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Belage:
You can fully transition someone, remove their penis, but they can still have the bigger skeleton, bigger lungs, stronger autonomic system, better muscle memory, especially if they are athletes. And we are talking about athletes here, not people who have been sitting around taking female hormones and eating bonbons.

Pound for pound, height for height, nature designed men to be stronger, faster, more powerful than women. It's in their dna.


Yeah. Like I said, it's a difficult one. I can see both sides. It's a strange condition, I really think we need to learn more about it before we can make the right decisions. And in the meantime, I would definitely be erring on the side of caution in terms of risk.

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Belage
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posted January 28, 2021 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We wouldn't have to do all this hand wringing if the transgender community created its own leagues and competed among themselves. That would avoid all this necessary divisiveness and angst.

Not all transgenders agree with the push to enter women's sports. But they are currently censored and labeled traitors by the extremists.

The agenda pushing transgenderist extremism is based on the unscientific notion that you can change your sex. You cannot change your sex as it is coded into your dna, but you can change your presentation, how you appear.

Surgeries can shave adam's apples, soften jaws, brow and nasal bones, remove and reconstruct genitals, insert breasts implants, hormonal therapy can create secondary sexual characteristics. But all these things do not change the sex, just the appearance. The DNA is still the same, and with it, the body's impetus to follow the laws of its biological sex coding. That is why transgenders have to be on hormones therapy for the rest of their lives, or they will start to lose the secondary sexual characteristics of the sex they identify with.

Health does not require chronic medication, you do not give people chronic medication unless they are ill.. The very fact that you have to be on meds for the rest of your life to sustain this new appearance should tell you that it is an illness.

How about therapy to help people accept that you cannot always be everything you want to be? If you are telling me that your emotional health depends on not only undergoing the transition, but being accepted in ALL the areas where women are, then we need to re-examine and rethink what you consider emotional health.

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shura
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posted January 28, 2021 11:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or, as the feminist icon Germaine Greer once so poetically put it, "Just because you lop off your dick and wear a dress doesnt make you a woman."

The physical attributes of bio men versus bio woman, and ability of prescribed hormones to affect those attributes is a convo long since had. Likewise, the scandal of men competing in women's sports to gain the upper hand is easily a century old.

I think the more pressing issue today is the new phenomenon of men weaseling their way into women's spaces and the inevitable results of that intrusion. Maybe the intrusion is a sort of karmic comeuppance. Fair question for another day. Meanwhile, as the physically dominant trans woman overpowers the bio woman in sports, so he overwhelms female dialogue, commandeers feminist social agendas, and generally invades her space even to the point of demanding access to women's restrooms.

I hold dearly to the once commonly held belief that both men and women deserve their own spaces. And not just in the loo.

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BlueRoamer
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posted January 28, 2021 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is such a small pointless issue, it’s only being focused on because hating on trans people is a dog whistle for fascism


You know liked to hate on and burn lgbt people? Hitler


Leave trans people alone unless you are a trans person, you have no idea how hard their lives are


Sitting on anonymous messages board with your stupid cis gender male penis weighing in on trans peoples lives.


Your entitlement and disconnection is appalling

Go walk a mile in a trans persons shoes before you have one inch of opinion about this issue

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shura
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posted January 28, 2021 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blue you are the only penis in this discussion. And as expected, you feel comfortable telling the women here to sit down and shut up. This would be hilarious if it were not so pathetically typical. You have well proven my point.

Maybe walk a mile in a women's shoe before telling her what to think, what to feel, and what she can say.

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Belage
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posted January 28, 2021 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When science and specifically biology cannot be used to advance your biased agenda, resort to guilt-tripping and scaremongering. So predictable.

Nothing to see here.

ETA: Well, I guess it's a variation from the whiny Ain't no 1 curr!

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted January 28, 2021 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Belage:
We wouldn't have to do all this hand wringing if the transgender community created its own leagues and competed among themselves. That would avoid all this necessary divisiveness and angst.

Not all transgenders agree with the push to enter women's sports. But they are currently censored and labeled traitors by the extremists.

The agenda pushing transgenderist extremism is based on the unscientific notion that you can change your sex. You cannot change your sex as it is coded into your dna, but you can change your presentation, how you appear.

Surgeries can shave adam's apples, soften jaws, brow and nasal bones, remove and reconstruct genitals, insert breasts implants, hormonal therapy can create secondary sexual characteristics. But all these things do not change the sex, just the appearance. The DNA is still the same, and with it, the body's impetus to follow the laws of its biological sex coding. That is why transgenders have to be on hormones therapy for the rest of their lives, or they will start to lose the secondary sexual characteristics of the sex they identify with.

Health does not require chronic medication, you do not give people chronic medication unless they are ill.. The very fact that you have to be on meds for the rest of your life to sustain this new appearance should tell you that it is an illness.

How about therapy to help people accept that you cannot always be everything you want to be? If you are telling me that your emotional health depends on not only undergoing the transition, but being accepted in ALL the areas where women are, then we need to re-examine and rethink what you consider emotional health.


Well, I don't feel that segregation is the answer either. Perhaps society is not evolved enough to manage this yet. I think we need to learn more, there is an awful lot we still don't know about the brain, and what we find out in the decades to come may radically change how we view things like 'emotional health'. But we have to remember that one of the most frequent and significant impacts on emotional and mental health is the environment. Acceptance and belonging should be equal for everyone who is not doing any harm.

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“Let no man pull you so low as to hate him.”
- Martin Luther King Jr

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Belage
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posted January 28, 2021 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belage     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@ Voix

Do you think the Special Olympics are segregation?

Are you advocating that special needs olympics athletes compete alongside regular olympics athletes?

Should we abolish Special Olympics as promoting segregation?

I mean, if the respecting and acknowledgement of differences is segregation, then...

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted January 28, 2021 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Belage:
@ Voix

Do you think the Special Olympics are segregation?

Are you advocating that special needs olympics athletes compete alongside regular olympics athletes?

Should we abolish Special Olympics as promoting segregation?


Of course not. But I suppose the difference is that regular athletes are not identifying as special needs athletes.

I don't disagree with your logic on this, like I said, I see both sides. But if a biological male identifies as a female, creating a 3rd category does not address the actual issue and just shifts any potential risk from females to transfemales. In the current climate though (and I do understand the concerns around risk and women's rights) there may be no other option until we have a greater understanding and more stability.

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“Let no man pull you so low as to hate him.”
- Martin Luther King Jr

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