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Author
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Topic: Women and respect for themselves
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T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 06, 2010 02:06 PM
  
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Azalaksh
Knowflake Posts: 988
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 06, 2010 02:52 PM
Loves back atcha T, you beautiful soul 
There are an awful lot of grown-up wounded children out there, T 
That’s the perfect way to describe my ex – a wounded kid.
And unfortunately I think you’ve pegged it: he will probably never grow (up) and will stay in victim-mentality. Everyone he meets for the rest of his life will pay for his being hurt when he was young.
The male wounded children I’ve had the misfortune to know are generally angry at their mothers – my ex often said that he wished his mother had been able to protect him from his father, and he was furious with her for not defending him (and getting clobbered herself). Now, ALL the women in my ex’s life get to pay for this perceived lack of love (defending him from his father) from his mother. His mother DID get out, when my ex was 11 or 12 – took the 4 kids and moved away. But the damage had already been done
And in a warped way, my ex thought this kind of abuse had “made a man out of him” when all it really did was perpetuate the wounded inner child, halt his emotional growth, and provide a role model that said “it’s OK to hurt other people, because YOU got hurt.”
The times my ex tried suicide weren’t really because he wanted to leave this dimension – he undoubtedly did secretly wish someone would/could help him. But when that help was freely and honestly offered, he would turn it down or ignore it. Examining himself, his motives and his honesty, and coming to terms with his past behavior and actions was just not something he could face. So (according to his daughters who don’t speak to him much) now he wallows in his fate, secure in his persecution, sure that everyone really IS out to get him and no one can really understand him.
My anger at what I allowed him to do to me has dissipated over the years, but I will carry the emotional and physical scars all my life. I do not want this episode with him to lead to some kind of balancing karma in the next lifetime(s), so I have done my best to forgive, although I will probably never forget. I actually “gave him to God” a few years ago, and that helped.
This experience has made me wary of ALL men, wondering what kind of wounded children or monsters live inside these seemingly-normal people IP: Logged |
GypseeWind
Moderator Posts: 5546
From: Love Street, she lingers long on Love Street..
Registered: May 2009
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posted November 06, 2010 04:20 PM
{{{ HUGS to Zala, T, Sunchild, and anyone else I missed or hasn't spoken up yet }}}RE: red flags. Sometimes when you are young and impressionable, and have experienced a lack of love at home, you don't see the red flags for what they are. My first husband never physically abused me until AFTER we got married, but the other signs were there, only I was blind to them. I thought of his jealousy as a compliment.
I thought of his controlling as 'manly', like, "Oh isn't that sweet, he told me not to go to the store, he would go instead." It takes being away from the situation sometimes to see if for what it really was. My ex would hurt or harm himself.
One time he put his arm through a huge window on the staircase landing in our apartment.
They had to call in a mircro surgeon to repair his tendons, and the Navy busted him down a rank for distruction of military property (his arm was their property at the time) and after wards I said, "why on earth would you do that, we were just arguing??"
And he said, "it was either the window or you, and you are too little to be hitting on." Well, after a year into the marriage, he didn't feel that way anymore.
I started being repulsed by him, and refusing to have sex with him, and he started forcing me to do it.
That is still rape whether or not you have a marriage certificate, but alot of people don't feel that way. One day I vomitted on the side of the bed, because that's how disgusted he made me.
It turned into a huge fight, and he accused me of cheating.
He kept me awake for 30 hours straight with non stop arguing (psychological abuse) until I was so worn out, that I said I was cheating, just so he would shut up. That's when the punch came. He hit me so hard I flipped over the bed.
He left to go outside and fume, and I grabbed a small bag of clothes and ran to a neighbor ladies house that I had met maybe 5 times at the most. I should mention I was 3,000 miles away from home, in Naples Italy. She took me in when she saw my face dripping blood, and even though she had no man there to protect us if he came around, and no phone, no weapons, etc.. She still took me in out of the kindness of her heart, and that is where I stayed until my flight came through to go home.
So there are angels in this world that will help people. And you know, I begged him for two years to send me my things, because I knew he'd have to leave base housing without having a spouse, he wasn't qualified anymore, and I wanted my stuff.
The navy packs it and pays for the shipping, it was no big deal. So, what he did was put fruit and potatoes in every box, so that when the stuff came to me a couple months later, it was destroyed.
Yeah, imagine opening box after box of your cherished possessions after they had fruit and veggies rot in them.
I just sat there and cried in my Moms garage. But it was only stuff, and I knew leaving was right. He STILL tried to contact me up to two years ago.
He denied ANY abuse whatsoever, and told his best friend to tell me that he was, "still interested." Pfftt. Puke. He is now on his fifth wife. At 46 years old. Unbelievable. I commend anyone who can get away with children.
We had a stillborn child, and while that was devasting, I wonder sometime if there is a reason for things like that after all, because if that baby would of been born, I'de probably be dead by now. Or at least wish I was.
Love to all.
XOX IP: Logged |
SunChild
Moderator Posts: 2416
From: Australia
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 06, 2010 06:34 PM
God it's so sad and hurts so much.
I wish he knew how I felt about him ~ he has no idea of the heart ache, the empathy I have for him, he has no idea. Reading all this makes me realise I was never the only one to go through it. I felt stupid and never wanted to tell anyone. His father died when he was a teen, his father was deaf the whole time, his mother....well let's say she was cold, not the cuddle/kiss warm type, lets just say she probably never cuddled them as children. It's so horrible. The only real affection he has ever received was from me, his first wife was not affectionate, for many years he received so much affection from me even after a night of severe torture and abuse. After the alcohol and argument wore off, I was able to cope with the man he was. I always felt sorry for the poor soul. But my whole life could no longer revolve around feeding this.
I was reading Gypsees about being tortured psychologically for 30 hours, same thing happened to me, forced awake, locked in a room, he returned every few minutes with another alcohol induced raging lecture that I was stupid and worthless, I tried getting out the window but it was locked. Maybe I should have smashed my way out. He did DESPICABLE things that I can't possibly prove to the police. I wonder how I am still sane now, I know too well what horrors a person can inflict on another. He did some aweful things that were even sexual in nature in front of his friend. Not to mention, the slapping, punching, hair pulling, pushing, throwing glass, throwing chairs, pulling out knives. ( I used to think during an 'episode', if my mum was watching she would be horrified and want to kill him)... I wanted to tell her, but kept it secret for many years. T, Zala, Gypsee, Pid Talking about it releases the energy that is held inside... at least for me.... my husband has listened to everything... and i felt a weight lift.... my heart became free from the secrets that tortured me. 
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Azalaksh
Knowflake Posts: 988
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 06, 2010 08:24 PM
Gypsee {{{ hugs }}} SunChild ~ quote:
I felt stupid and never wanted to tell anyone .... I wanted to tell her, but kept it secret for many years.
I understand completely
I felt the same – didn’t want to admit to myself that I had made a huge mistake…..
I defended my ex to everyone who tried to point out his “flaws” even though I knew they were right. My mother told me point-blank after my son was born, “you know you’re going to be raising that child by yourself” and she was right – she knew me better than I knew myself; knew I would leave the relationship at some point; but I had to support my choice.
You don’t tell people how bad it is, because you’re an honorable person and you’ve made a choice and made a commitment, and you’re ashamed to admit that your choice was made by discarding facts and what *IS* and instead romantically focusing on potential: what COULD be…..
Then day by day those facts, the reality of the man’s destructiveness, comes home and eats away at your heart and at your self-esteem (you must be as worthless as he says, since you CHOSE the dolt)
Talking about it DOES release that negative energy trapped inside 
But it does more than that – it also shows those who are still invested in unhealthy relationships that there IS a way out: many other women have made it to freedom from emotional vampires.IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 6984
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 06, 2010 08:40 PM
hugs to all of you... and congratulations!! some never do make it out.IP: Logged |
T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 08:50 AM
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T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 08:55 AM
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T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 09:02 AM
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T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 09:04 AM
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T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 09:07 AM
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AbsintheDragonfly
Knowflake Posts: 2323
From: Gaia
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted November 07, 2010 10:47 AM
 to all you ladies who are willing to speak out IP: Logged |
teasel
Knowflake Posts: 3146
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 11:35 AM
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T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 12:43 PM
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T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 12:49 PM
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Azalaksh
Knowflake Posts: 988
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 01:19 PM
Teasel ~ quote:
I was going to say more - and ask a few questions of those of you here who wouldn't mind talking about it, because none of you seem at all weak, as in someone who might attract a control freak.
I don’t mind talking about it, hon
Ask anything you like
I’m curious about the use of the word “weak.” Like, if T or Gypsee or SunChild or Pid or I had been “strong,” then somehow we could have prevented these emotional vampires from coming into our lives….. that’s an interesting concept, but I’m ambivalent about the validity of it…..
And if karma is true, then perhaps there was balancing that needed to be done from my past encounters with this spirit, and we got another chance in this lifetime to make it right and do karma-housecleaning 
For all I know, maybe in a past life *I* was the abuser, and my ex was the one who got abused, and maybe now the slate is wiped clean…..
The issue for me was, that since I loved this person – and things were great in the beginning, until he was sure he had sucked me in – I ignored and denied what I will call red flags or “flaws” for the sake of this discussion. I thought enough LOVE would fix everything. The main lesson I brought away from my experience is two-fold: that I CAN’T fix other people and that Love Isn’t All You Need….. now please, before the Love-Is-All-You-Need proponents jump in, what I mean is that in an emotionally/physically abusive relationship, all the love in the world is not going to make things better. In a utopian sense, if you are among a group of peers of similar evolvement, perhaps Love Is All You Need IP: Logged |
Azalaksh
Knowflake Posts: 988
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 01:31 PM
T ~ quote:
It's all in the lessons and whether we learn them or not. Otherwise the "same" kind of people and situations, in different bodies and circumstances will continue to show up. Life is urging us to grow. Dont think you failed by attracting a certain person into your life.
I agree with you about rejecting the pronouncements of those smug people who say: “Well you attracted this into your life – it’s your fault for what that person did to you.”
In 12-Step programs like AA, they use the metaphor that you will keep falling into that same hole in the sidewalk (in this case, thinking that you can control your drinking), until you finally learn to recognize that it’s a deep dark hole and falling into it will hurt, and walk around it. It’s my belief too, that we will continue to meet these same types of personalities until we learn to avoid them. Then we have passed that test
I halfway believe that I went thru this experience more so that I could help others (but also a learning experience for me) – as only someone who has been there can help. Counsellors, friends etc can be sympathetic, even empathetic, in a clinical way, but I’m not sure that someone who hasn’t experienced this can really help empower another person who is struggling in this type of destructive relationship (an emotionally/physically abusive one).
Often the advice is simplistic: “get out!” Well, yeah. But there’s a lot more to it than that. For those women who aren’t financially independent (ie, employed) it can be hard to “just get out.” For those of us who are/were financially independent, it’s easier, even though, like Gyps, a lot of precious material things are destroyed, lost or left behind….. and you have to reach a cusp, before you can leave. You have to be at the end of your rope. And until someone suffering in such a relationship reaches the end of their rope, all the good advice and encouragement from friends and family will fall on near-deaf ears. Oh, it will be heard, in some corner of their mind and heart, and filed away, and maybe even contemplated, but it won’t come home to roost in the forefront of their consciousness until they suffer that one last straw, that one last intolerable assault to their being…..
The thing that I haven’t wholly integrated from my experience yet is my wariness towards all men that I am attracted to. Maybe this is a good thing – maybe I was too open before, maybe my self-protection genes had not been activated and needed to be to prevent me from being hurt worse than I was.
The wariness doesn’t get activated UNLESS I am attracted to them, eg, I have no issues relating to the men I work with. I’m not sure that I will ever have a partner again, as the burned hand has taught MUCH too well
I’ve swung to the other extreme of the spectrum, and eschewed emotional involvement for years. I know perfectly well that THAT will be my next lesson: learning to trust again. Don’t know if I will tho, and at this point I’m inclined to not even try…..Is Neptune conjunct Sun responsible for my “weakness?” I often blame that aspect for things I don’t want to own 
Which is why I keep getting these opportunities to deal with my illusions quote:
It wasnt too long ago that a member here pointed out something that i had mentioned going on in my life and used it to make me feel bad (or try to anyway) and boasted about what he had "manifested" and attracted into his life. Look at me! Look what I did, because I am more advanced than you! You are a bad person because you were in an abusive relationship! And just look-y here what Ive done and got! It was somewhat amusing and i think the person really believed it was all his doing and he was blessed because he was such a powerful and pure being. Lol
That makes me chuckle too, T ;-)) Again, it’s all about POWER, isn’t it?? I imagine that supercilious personage will get a lesson in humility sometime soon IP: Logged |
GypseeWind
Moderator Posts: 5546
From: Love Street, she lingers long on Love Street..
Registered: May 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 01:47 PM
I see it as a big pot of stew. A little of this goes in and a little of that...
Coming from a psychology background I am more conditoned to think that much of it has to do with childhood. And that doesn't mean everyones parents were bad.
I know mine did the best they could with what they knew at the time, and I hold no grudges.Some of us, me for example, chase the love of an absentee parent forever, or so it would seem.
My Father was a very domineering and aggressive man.
BUT he was also extremely charismatic. I couldn't understand why he would have a child and then let his Mother raise her (me), and live only 20 minutes away and yet only see me once or twice a year.
He has since apologized and tried to explain... but, it set a mold. I felt that the only love worth having was a love I had to fight for, just like my Dads. If it came easy, then it must not be genuine, was how skewed my thinking became. And even though my Dad had these abusive qualities, he was THE supreme protector. He would make anyone who dared to harm me shudder in their shoes (even though it was ok for him to harm me, through his emotional unavailability). To this day, family and friends are terrified of my Dad, and he is a 65 year old man, but he just has that aura. So, I went out in the world to seek 'him' over and over again.
Now, I realize that I can seek somebody who embodies the good in him without the bad.
But it took forever to get there. I've seen the reverse happen as well. People whose parents were too intrusive or too 'into' their kids, sometimes look for the complete opposite... and then wonder at the fact they don't feel enough love. It's a wonder we survive childhood in one peice, and it's terrifying to have children of your own and worry what you might to do them, inadvertently. But, my philosopy is also bound up with life lessons, and karma and those sort of spiritual things as well. I'm not sure that I attracted someone because I was weak, I wonder sometimes if I attracted him because I was strong, and therefore an ultimate challenge.
I feel like a horse that can't be broken.
You know? They say you have to 'break a horses spirit' for it to be compliant. For it to be truly tamed, you have to take the wild out of it.
And you can't do that to me, and I think that draws alot of power freaks who think they can be 'that one'. I know this because I've had guys I barely know say, "if you were my girlfriend, you wouldn't do this or that, or you would KNOW the rules and follow them, or else!" See what I'm getting at? IP: Logged |
Azalaksh
Knowflake Posts: 988
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 02:56 PM
Gyps ~ quote:
I've seen the reverse happen as well. People whose parents were too intrusive or too 'into' their kids, sometimes look for the complete opposite... and then wonder at the fact they don't feel enough love.
I had what I consider a pretty idyllic childhood, with “normal” parents. But they stifled me – even though I was raised to be independent, there was still the “a woman has her place (ie, helpmate to a man)” atmosphere. I rebelled against what was expected of me – my mother often asks me why I stay in my job instead of going and getting “a nice job in a bank.” LOL!!! Right now I make twice as much as I would working in a bank **chuckles** but Mom doesn’t know that since she hasn’t worked for a paycheck since the 1950’s – in her day, women were just beginning to be allowed to be bank tellers
Besides, at a bank I could meet a banker or an executive – what she considered the perfect match, other than a nice doctor
But with Aquarius on my DSC, somehow I just don’t see me with bankers or doctors or lawyers….. I preferred (and still do) the eccentrics, the artists, the rebels and the outcasts/underdogs <=== and this is it in a nutshell: why I hooked up with my ex.
Since I’ve grown out of outcasts/underdogs, nowadays those rebels/eccentrics that I’m attracted to are computer geeks and people into holistic lifestyles, organic/sustainable foods and other materials – I have a bit of a ‘crush’ on a guy at work who is a Scientist for gawds sake!! He’s working on developing algae both for an alternative fuel (the oil from pressing them refined into biodiesel) and for “eating” smokestack emissions – he has his own solar energy company still quote:
I'm not sure that I attracted someone because I was weak, I wonder sometimes if I attracted him because I was strong, and therefore an ultimate challenge. I feel like a horse that can't be broken. You know? They say you have to 'break a horses spirit' for it to be compliant. For it to be truly tamed, you have to take the wild out of it.
BINGO!! I’m sure that’s what my ex saw in me – the feeling of “controlling” a strong woman made HIM feel strong – it’s too bad he couldn’t find that strength in himself, and instead used manipulation and fear :-\ But in my ex’s case, he hadn’t done anything or been anywhere that would give him a feeling of pride in accomplishment, to give him a sense of self-esteem. He had a skill – he was a welder for the railroads – and if he could have gotten into a union, at that time it would have been a guaranteed $70k income per year. But he felt “prevented” from exploiting that skill (which made him bitter), so to build his now nonexistent self-esteem, he manipulated and controlled others to get a (warped) sense of success and accomplishment – something we all need to feel in our lives…..IP: Logged |
T
Knowflake Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 03:26 PM
Zala & Gypsee, I'm really really loving reading your wise and insightful posts. Just wanted to say a quick thanks while i've stopped in for a sec. Love~ IP: Logged |
GypseeWind
Moderator Posts: 5546
From: Love Street, she lingers long on Love Street..
Registered: May 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 03:43 PM
T :heeart: I'm glad you are getting something out of this.. that makes it so worth it.
Zala, is your scientist single??
Remember last winter I told you that in a years time you would be into someone? Can it be him!!!!!! *crosses fingers*
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Azalaksh
Knowflake Posts: 988
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 04:21 PM
T ~ {{{ hugs }}} Gyps ~ yes I remember what you said about this November - I don't know if Mr Algae Scientist is the one you "saw" tho..... I have his chart, but gawdhelpme he's a Scorpio full of 11's (born on 11/11 and his b'day adds up to 11)
Dunno if I can handle that.....
Also, this birthday year is what the Part of Marriage specifies is MY YEAR. Unfortunately, the POM assumes that someone WANTS to get married, and I don't: I just want to have a companion to share life's ups and downs
I do NOT particularly want to live with a man again and wash dirty underwear IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 6984
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 10:32 PM
a long time ago i came across the concept that it is not what our parents did to us but how we INTERPRETED what they did, that causes the distortions in our outlooks. this seems to make sense from my experience. especially since i turned my relationship with my mom around unilaterally by deciding to do so, taking back my power in the equation. and this is something we learn in surviving abusive relationships with SOs too. it does seem to me that we choose our parents, though the reasons may be unknown to us why we would pick, especially, the seriously abusive ones... but i have never seen a family where the charts didn't dovetail in some way, ie, the patterns are there in the baby's chart as well as the parents and siblings. so from birth at least the possibilities are visible if you study the charts. my ex is basically a softy, but he often covers it well and his scorp rising makes it easy to protect that cancer center...he can cut you dead with a look, though, or cut you out of his life as well as any true scorp. abusive? not in his eyes, and truly he wouldn't hurt a fly, but for years she only got involved in guys who were unavailable in various ways,and had tempers, and tho i've expressed concerns about her current quasi relationship it is a vast improvement on some of them! which i attribute to the fact that in the last 5 years she has finally had a pretty good relationship with her dad even though they are miles apart except for visits...interestingly she has kept this one at arm's length for the most part does not want to live with him and is happy making her own space in life. despite everything most "normal" people look for, for her this is a big step. hoping she can continue moving forward despite her tendency for self-sabotage. and tho physical abuse is more likely to be man on woman, women can be abusive too. especially in the verbal way though there are women who make punching bags of their men too! IP: Logged |
GypseeWind
Moderator Posts: 5546
From: Love Street, she lingers long on Love Street..
Registered: May 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 11:35 PM
Kat, I can barely understand astrology, but I see exactly what you mean about the charts of parents and children. 'Dovetail' is a perfect word. Just like the drawers in a dresser, when you start putting it together, the peices all fit like a big puzzle, even going back and back and back.. generations. It's amazing.Zala *Facepalm* My God, the Scorpios are taking over the world this year.
SIGH.
Well, nobody says you HAVE to wash his dirty underwear.
Who knows? He may go commando. Brainy guys are so sexy aren't they? xox. IP: Logged |
SunChild
Moderator Posts: 2416
From: Australia
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 08, 2010 12:34 AM
T *hugs back at you* quote:
I really don't like it when people jump to conclusions and quickly think or say, well you wouldnt have attracted them in, if it wasnt in you. I dont think the quirk also has to be in the other person, but could just be an opportunity to learn something and grow from. Am I making sense?
Yes I think that is a misshaped way of perceiving it- there are many more reason for it to occur, and in every case it is unique. I draw from it now and then and find something absolutely meaningful and positive from it, even give myself a pat on the back once in a while. "I am so proud of me"
quote:
It wasnt too long ago that a member here pointed out something that i had mentioned going on in my life and used it to make me feel bad (or try to anyway) and boasted about what he had "manifested" and attracted into his life. Look at me! Look what I did, because I am more advanced than you! You are a bad person because you were in an abusive relationship! And just look-y here what Ive done and got!
I remember that, I see that all too much (not here) but elsewhere too and from self proclaimed enlightened people- far from it. That is materialistic thinking even if it's not about material items. It's spiritual materialism. IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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