posted April 17, 2012 08:26 PM            

I am pro-choice simply because I know that whatever decision a woman comes to is not always easy. Abortion is NOT a form of birth control and no woman would put herself through this kind of stress just because. There is anguish in making such a decision and to be forced to listen to the sonogram of an unborn child is torture. What good can come of this? Not to mention that the identity of the patients and doctors will be kept on record and is therefore a threat. For what? This is modern day stoning. There is so much pressure on women even to this day to get married and have children. Little has changed over the centuries when there is a potential threat to a person's career and life because they had to make a decision that does not effect the government or the rest of the world. But because someone with a penis and yes women have decided that sex is strictly for procreating (whether it was mutual or not) women are stripped of the rights to their own body because of the "ideology" of someone in power.

posted April 17, 2012 09:13 PM            

Let's just call it what it is. Our society is filled with many politically powerful misogynists and misguided religious fanatics who's soul mission in life is to control a womens right to breathe.

posted April 17, 2012 09:28 PM            

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posted April 18, 2012 12:22 AM            

If a state makes you wait a year to get a divorce (which is what I had to do in Maryland) so that a person understands the decision that they are making, why is it wrong for a state to make a person listen and see what is growing inside of them before getting rid of what "it"is?

posted April 18, 2012 01:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BearsArcher:
I think what they are doing by making a woman take "ownership" over her body and the conception is to also make her understand what she has growing inside of her.

If a state makes you wait a year to get a divorce (which is what I had to do in Maryland) so that a person understands the decision that they are making, why is it wrong for a state to make a person listen and see what is growing inside of them before getting rid of what "it"is?

I think sometimes people give more consideration to their pets than an unwanted pregnancy but if they understood the implications of their decision maybe they would still go through with it but make a better choice (birth control) the next time around?

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posted April 18, 2012 01:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
It's all about power and control. The power to control others. The power to control women. It feels as though consistently this has been the situation with gender dynamics in our society and with regards to religion. However the tensions surrounding this issue have more vividly then since the 60/70s come to the surface in recent months.

Let's just call it what it is. Our society is filled with many politically powerful misogynists and misguided religious fanatics who's soul mission in life is to control a womens right to breathe.

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Sadly, I agree with you on this. It's just so disturbing to know that a group of people who aren't going to be there to be financially, physically, and emotionally supportive get to play puppet master with our lives.

There was a huge scandal over the proposed bill that would redefine rape nationally. If any of those butts had gone through what any survivor has they would have smacked crap out of the person who even brought it up.

posted April 18, 2012 01:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
People get upset because some people think the baby is a life and the most helpless form of life with no rights and no voice.

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posted April 18, 2012 01:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Delilah:
I understand, but the people who carry on about how abortion is murder are not the ones who will be responsible for that child. Little thought is given to the women who have to go through this unless it's to brand them.

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posted April 18, 2012 02:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
I feel that the soul does not enter the foetus until about 12 weeks.
After the 3rd. month the foetus has fully formed all its parts and simply needs to finish maturing.
Before that point up to 33% of pregnancies are lost,
most before a woman even knows she is pregnant.
Twins can become a single often before 12 weeks.
It is illogical by what I have observed in my research,
for a soul to enter a foetus before the 12th. week and before it has its own aura, which does not generate until the 12th. week or so.
Astrologically this fits too,
as the soul comes into the foestus when the opposite of the sign they will be born (unless a premmie)
under is the sun at that time.
Like Scorpio comes in under the sign of Taurus.
I was a Scorpio born premmie so my opposite is actually Cancer not Taurus becaue I was supposed to be a Capricorn.
Well anyhow,
I feel anyone getting an abortion should do so before 12 weeks,
unless there are other valid reasons to wait.
I have myself been pregnant 26+ times and until the quickening, at about 12th week, but possibly not felt until around 16 weeks, there is in my opinion,
"no one is home" yet;
basically
no soul has entered the foetus body until the 12th. week or so.
Also,
one should know if they had unprotected sex, and or are late for their period.
At that early stage there are a few ways to ensure no pregnancy, which are not invasive as abortion.
So terminate early on,
well before it can be seen clearly on a sonogram.
Do not wait.

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But there is a problem when people are taught abstinence only as a way to prevent pregnancy. In the South, abstinence is taught without the explanation of how birth control and condoms can prevent an unwanted pregnancy or std. Because of this, we have the highest percentage of teenage pregnancies in the country; Mississippi is leading. It's baffling how the school boards can settle to teach both evolution and creationism quicker than parents and school boards can agree to just discuss informing teenagers about abstinence and protective sex in case they choose to have sex.

posted April 18, 2012 02:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
The heartbeat will be negligible early on.
A sonogram will very early reveal very little but a possibly pulsating blob.
Again,
ny pov,
terminate the moment one thinks or knows they are pregnant.
Why wait until it is far enough along to be clear on a sonogram?

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posted April 18, 2012 02:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Delilah:
[b] I understand, but the people who carry on about how abortion is murder are not the ones who will be responsible for that child. Little thought is given to the women who have to go through this unless it's to brand them.

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Yep.
That is how many think. [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh my God! I don't know why I'm still shocked by human behaviour. I'd like to ask that person what they would do if they were raped by a stranger or a victim of incest, would they keep the baby? Was the rape God's punishment for insensitivity and heartlessness?

posted April 18, 2012 02:18 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Delilah:
I did not know that. I just thought about the woman's emotional state and how trying to make her feel guilty would only make things worse for her.

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posted April 18, 2012 02:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Delilah:
Oh my God! I don't know why I'm still shocked by human behaviour. I'd like to ask that person what they would do if they were raped by a stranger or a victim of incest, would they keep the baby? Was the rape God's punishment for insensitivity and heartlessness?

You know what? That person sounds like they're from the Westboro Baptist Church. I'll likely edit this later in case those miserable blobs do gooogle searches of their church.

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posted April 18, 2012 02:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Delilah:
[b] Oh my God! I don't know why I'm still shocked by human behaviour. I'd like to ask that person what they would do if they were raped by a stranger or a victim of incest, would they keep the baby? Was the rape God's punishment for insensitivity and heartlessness?

You know what? That person sounds like they're from the Westboro Baptist Church. I'll likely edit this later in case those miserable blobs do gooogle searches of their church.

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[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, I would bet my front teeth that person belongs to that horrible church. They love to blame and demonize victims. Bad things happen to everyone, why that person feels that they are above being human like the rest of us is just ridiculous.

Their attitude is reflective of those who wrote and support such bills. They give little thought to others for whatever delusional reason. For this nameless individual to say such a thing is in a way begging for it themselves.

posted April 18, 2012 02:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Delilah:
Oh, I would bet my front teeth that person belongs to that horrible church. They love to blame and demonize victims. Bad things happen to everyone, why that person feels that they are above being human like the rest of us is just ridiculous.

Their attitude is reflective of those who wrote and support such bills. They give little thought to others for whatever delusional reason. For this nameless individual to say such a thing is in a way begging for it themselves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Delilah:

Also, I'd like to believe that there were logical reasons for the women from the documentary to have aborted so late in their pregnancies. I just don't want to believe that a person would willingly go so far and then decide that they no longer want the child. I imagine that it becomes more so a part of you after the first trimester.

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posted April 18, 2012 05:46 AM            

What really shows just how insane their hatred of women is like (as just one example) how Georgia wants to force women to carry even stillborn fetuses to term (that is, "protecting" DEAD fetuses, and gets popular support showing it's not the life that's the issue, but the control--and punishment--of women). And I recall a friend from Argentina telling me how her deeply Catholic country likes to not only force women to carry babies conceived in rape BUT RAISE THEM, and this even included when an 11-year-old was raped by her her step father. I've heard of women who were excommunicated for having an abortion but the man (sometimes relative) who raped her (conceiving the baby that was aborted) was not, but I suppose that's parallel to politicians today who worry about insurance covering birth control but not viagra.

And back to the USA the Republicans have also been attacking women in other ways as well, not only in attacking birth control and pay but also like when State Sen. Glenn Grothman & State Rep. Donald Pridemore said a battered woman should stay with an abusive husband as it's in the Bible (and this was NOT political suicide as it would've been if there wasn't a war on women going on right now).

And of course that supposed passionate love for the unborn evaporates once the baby is born, and are often even opposed to neonatal care, birth control (to prevent unwanted births that would cost even more money and thus make it harder on the unwanted children forced to exist), and are even often against any kind of welfare, including school lunches for impoverished kids (as most babies who would be aborted would be born as if not aborted). The religious orphanages that do exist are often horror stories and devout Christian parents who adopt have been known to kill their children through extreme abuse over petty offenses (an ironic one was a girl murdered by her adoptive Christian mother by a severe beating for lying and then called 911 and LIED about the adopted little girl killing herself) and churches have also run extremely abusive (even tortuous) teen gulags that again belie their love and compassion for children. That is to say their love and compassion only exists where politically convenient. It's kinda like how many fundies will say the Taliban hate America and our freedoms but then say they love America and stand for freedom as they attack those same freedoms the Taliban hates.

Don't try to make sense out of it because there's no sense to be had in it. It actually reminds me of Humpty Dumpty who summed up his contradictions and confusing use of language with "the question is who is to be master, that is all."

I personally hope that their waging a war on women, gays, separation of church & state, and the like has doomed the Republican Party (at least those who engage in this) to fail in 2012, and fail badly enough they no longer act so vile. And I know some independents have shared that they voted Republican in 2010 for the economy (as Republicans promised to focus on) and were infuriated when the newly elected Republicans began their war with a huge number of bills and other attacks (sure, the Republican Party has never been that friendly to these issues but in 2010 they became their raison d'être rather than side issues) that the independents saw at best as a waste of their time (and not what they voted for) and often downright offensive to them. I'm not happy with the Democrats but this war simply cannot be allowed to succeed so I'm planning on voting Democrat as much as possible (and taking a long shower after), as too many Republicans seem too much like the Taliban trying to get elected into power (and thus a greater evil), and the last thing I want to see is America continuing to become more like Iran instead of the Land of the Free. And if it affects me and plenty of others I know that way (including a few moderate Republican voters I know) then maybe it's affecting many others the same way so that their war is going to blow up in their face.

posted April 18, 2012 08:28 AM            

People are afraid of women, it seems. They feel threatened when we don't just take things lying down and when we fight for our rights. Maybe men are afraid that we really won't need them at some point.

Honestly, my belief is that you get your soul when you are born. A fetus is just that--a fetus. Potential life, not actual. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me, it's live birth.

I also believe that outlawing abortion perpetuates poverty, child abuse/neglect, and other problems. If someone cannot afford good prenatal care, the fetus is more likely to turn into an unhealthy child. The cost of care for such a child could financially cripple a person.

And, too, sometimes even with good prenatal care, a fetus can have something seriously wrong with it, or something can happen to the mother during pregnancy (like Gene Tierney and her daughter Daria).

The emotional cost of raising an unhealthy child is also very high. Autism, for example. There is no cure for that. Care is expensive. Those children can be violent and harmful. Even with a healthy and normal child, there can be a lot of stress, complicated feelings, postpartum depression or psychosis, etc.

It's so stigmatized to talk about the stresses of being a parent, and a lot of people who need help don't get it for that reason.

In the case of rape, obviously, there is a HUGE trauma involved.

Financially, sometimes a couple simply cannot afford another baby or prenatal care, or can't do so without seriously jeopardizing the existing family.

Sometimes, a woman has health problems, or the fetus does, that would endanger the woman's life, or else send the family into poverty, putting them all at risk for problems, such as a highly unsafe living environment, lack of access to health care, etc.

It's not so simple as "just adopt", either. For one thing, again, prenatal care would be needed. For another, special needs children, as well as children with emotional or mental health problems, are FAR less likely to be adopted. Even healthy minority children are less likely than whites to be adopted. The US adoption laws are so tough that many adopt from overseas, from countries that don't always tell you if there's a problem with a child (like Russia--I've read SO MANY cases about problems with Russian children, likely linked to the high rate of alcoholism as well as to the environment in orphanages). Plus, the cost of adoption (financially) is extremely high. There's also the issue of biological parents sometimes changing their minds and also problems with the adoption if the parents don't know ahead of time about problems with the child. There could be emotional problems, too, if the child seeks out birth parents, as well as a lot of complications if the adoption is "open". Thus, sometimes even if people would choose adoption, the child may never get adopted, or could end up in a horrible home.

And even if one is financially, mentally, and emotionally stable, there's the love factor. I believe that children should be born to loving parents that are fully prepared to care for it, will love it, want it, and will give it a good home, and who have a good support system around them. If a parent doesn't want a child, that is not going to happen. No one should EVER be forced to have an unwanted child.

And, too, sometimes people are in other really difficult circumstances that would make having a child NOT a good idea at all.

Sometimes, birth control can fail. If people are going to say "don't have sex", I ask you: are you willing to do that? If not, you really don't have the right to tell others not to have sex if you yourself would not go without it.

Outlawing abortion also wouldn't stop abortion. People used to do it in very dangerous ways back in the day that resulted in a lot of maternal death.

Personally, I don't feel that people should EVER judge those who have abortions or who choose simply to never have a child at all. It's a tough choice, and there is no easy answer. We should treat these women with compassion. Parenthood is NOT for everyone, and those of us like myself who opt out of it should NOT be ridiculed, criticized, judged, told we would "change our minds", or any of that crap.

posted April 18, 2012 05:00 PM            

Interesting about the 12 weeks, Lexx. I guess you would be against partial birth abortion, then?

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posted April 18, 2012 05:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
Attempting to outlaw abortion is oppression, pure and simple

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Communist Romania was a horror story in many ways, just one of them treating women almost exactly like the Christian Right wants to treat them (particularly in regards to turning women into breeding machines). Due to such vigilance abortion seemed successfully stopped (after all every miscarriage was investigated as a possible homicide as some Republicans want to get done here in the USA, and IIRC women were required to take yearly tests to make sure they hadn't had an abortion in case she got one before the state knew she was pregnant, and then they taxed those who didn't conceive once she was cleared of murdering any fetuses) and the results show the horror...indeed, they had some of the most infamous (and overpopulated) orphanages in the world.

Interesting enough they're the only country where Communism ended with the leaders being put against the wall and shot, and the bulk of those who made the revolution were those children who were "saved" from abortion (and had the most rage at growing up unloved and abused), many of those executing the Commies were themselves kids. Even some adults were brought in by such kids, like one man said he was goaded into joining in the revolution by a 13-year-old girl who probably wouldn't have been born had it not been the ban on abortion.

It's also been noted how crime rose in the United States with the boomers (that is, the more born, the more violent crime) until it was rampant in the 1970s, and some feared the country would collapse do to it (this was also the reason vigilante movies like Death Wish became so popular in the 70s), but then it suddenly and dramatically dropped and the only likely cause is that because it was legalized abortions meant a lot less impoverished kids from broken homes were suddenly gone. Who knows, maybe if abortion had remained illegal our government would've been thrown up against the wall and shot by now, too. (I'll leave that up to you to decide whether that would've been a good or bad thing.)

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
my belief is that you get your soul when you are born

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This view makes sense to me if you believe in astrology.

posted April 18, 2012 06:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
[quote]Before 12 weeks I sensed no sapient or soul presence.
I could not abort after the 11th week or so.[/quote}

Interesting about the 12 weeks, Lexx. I guess you would be against partial birth abortion, then?

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posted April 18, 2012 06:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
my belief is that you get your soul when you are born

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I do not buy that at all.
I know there were souls within the foetal bodies that made it to betwixt 12 to 37 weeks.
I guess one would have had to been pregnant some 26+ times like I was to know that.
No one "home" before 12 weeks, but oh yes, the sense of being after that point!
And the sadness from each one as each died within me, and their bewiilderment and the falling away from my mind.

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
This view makes sense to me if you believe in astrology.

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