posted May 10, 2012 10:03 PM            

And please don't edit any posts. The whole goal is to have an objective discussion.

posted May 10, 2012 11:13 PM            

No one's really judging you or your wife for the way that you have chosen to raise your children... Well, it could be worse. However, no one's threatening to call child services or calling you and your wife names. True, her actions have made a few of us uncomfortable. How could they not? To some of us who have come into our own sexuality one way or another, this is kind of scary.

Anyway, do/would any of you stress to your children, nieces, or nephews how the other person should treat them and vice versa? I think that in a lot of cases this is where the ball has been dropped. It's one thing to say that boys should keep their hands off of girls, but another to say that they should be gentlemen. This doesn't lie solely on boys. I've known too many women who have drained men of everything they could get out of them. Why isn't there just as much attention given to "courting" (to be old-fashioned) and mutual respect so that children know how they deserve to be treated?

I'm a little bit of the rebel in my family because I won't accept the traditional forms of catering to just any man who comes along. An uncle (by marriage) once told me that most men won't accept a woman who doesn't know how to cook. I told him that most women won't even consider the kind of man who sits around on his a$$, stuffing his mouth, and yammering on about how he's the man of his house when he hasn't done anything to deserve the toilet as his throne. We don't get along. He seems to have confused just having a penis with being a man.

Before I receive bashing for what I just said, let me explain that for six years he did nothing to support his family financially or in the home. My aunt worked two jobs to support him and their children while going back to college to earn her degree. Her husband sat at home, ate the food that she bought left and right, never cleaned the house, mowed the lawn, picked the kids up from school when they didn't have baseball practice, picked up after himself, or did the laundry. When she finally got her degree, he decided that he wanted to become a nurse. When he was studying, he refused to work even part-time. He does not deserve to be called a man.

posted May 10, 2012 11:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
You are not alone on that. I didn't want to be as passionate about it, simply because I think YTA is aware that many people would disagree and criticise this behaviour.
And if he has mentioned this to others in the past, I'm sure they also had negative reactions.
So I didn't want to reiterate the obvious.

It's each to their own in the end. We make our beds & sleep in them. There are always consequences.

---

Passionate? My post was passionate? wow That was totally not the angle I was going for. lol I was trying to explain what would have happened if it involved someone like me, but trying to be diplomatic about it. I'll take passionate as a compliment though, that was my goal last year, to find passion. =D Gotta watch me though, I don't grasp tact... seriously, not an excuse, I just don't get it until well after the fact and only after people point it out.

YTA, there is nothing in this world that anyone can do to me that is worse than what I could do to myself if I did not follow my own set of values and it has always been that way. It's not something I was taught or learned behavior, it's who I am. Luckily most people who meet me understand that, and even when I did things that got me in trouble, usually people let me be because I was already punishing myself for it more than they ever could.

If you had a child with my mind set (when I was a kid), the more I was pushed, the more I retaliated... and I would NEVER give in if I thought that the other person was being unjust. A good parent would realize that, and teach rather than force... but everyone is different. Be forever thankful your children are nothing like me.

On a couple of side notes: I really do enjoy hearing opposing sides. Even if the other person only happens to be playing devil's advocate (which I understand you're not doing exactly).

And, it seems like it's more of a no watching porn and/or sexualizing women thing. If that's the case, I can completely understand. But... is it really a punishable offense to masturbate, say in bed after everyone goes to sleep with just his brain, in your household? I mean, is the masturbation the offense itself? If so, why? -Keep in mind, I am a serious science advocate... I won't argue with your point of view (well, I might but not in a mean spirited way) but that's where I'm coming from when reading it.

posted May 10, 2012 11:32 PM            

My mother also had that puritanical streak. I was totally going to hell if I had premarital sex, no if's, and's, or buts.

Yet she had a VERY HEARTY appreciation for how great marital sex can be. I know because she grossed me out by talking about it.

Now here's where I will not compare to YTA's wife, I am not trying to suggest anything about her.

But my mother died of ovarian cancer. I believe in mind-body medicine, I believe this was part of her very conflicted views on sex. Like it's either heaven or hell (literally) and no middle ground whatsoever. I wince just thinking about this.

posted May 10, 2012 11:49 PM            

He wanted to go roller skating.

My mother said no, we would go to the mall and watch a movie, then maybe have dinner at the food court.

I was mortified. Not because my mother decided what we were going to do, that was well within her right. Heck, I was just happy to get out of the house.

I wanted to go roller skating, and tried to tell her this. She kept saying no, because we wouldn't go skating, we would sneak off somewhere. She was convinced that if we decided to go roller skating we wouldn't go. So we went to the movie.... and she sent my cousin to the mall to check up on us, before we purchased our tickets and then again when we made it to the food court.

The thing is, she created such a level of fear... and a lack of honest communication through out my life, I couldn't explain to her:

I wanted to go roller skating because he was a much better skater than I. We wouldn't be near each other that much. And he would never get the opportunity to try and kiss me. While I didn't really have romantic interests in the guy, maybe I could get out of there and make a new friend.

In a theater, we would be sitting uncomfortably in a dark room. I knew he would at least try and kiss me once.

And guess what, he tried to hold my hand, and during the credits he tried to kiss me.

I was protecting myself by saying skating... but because I was afraid to talk to her about sex, relationships, or anything like that... I couldn't explain it to her. She was trying to do the right thing, but she didn't understand that the right thing for her was not what was in my best interests to protect me from exactly what she wanted to protect me from. I knew it, but couldn't say it.

posted May 11, 2012 12:21 AM            

My mother died when I was 14 but she made dumb mistakes like that too. (Where is the "eye roll" emoticon?)

And I make mistakes with my kids and see it happening but feel like I am trapped in this bubble of imperfection. Like sometimes I just have to suspect that one of my children did something wrong and is lying. And they cry and plead with me to believe that they are being honest. I remember doing that with my mother and really guilt tripping her for not believing me, like writing tear-stained letters and such. But if I recall correctly, I sometimes did this even when I wasn't sure if I was guilty of a crime or not. Like if I got blamed for losing something and really just had no idea what happened to the thing.

So when my children act like that I tend to just resolve, "I WON'T be like my mother, I will take THEIR side!"

But hey they have manipulated me this way! Kids are so smart, they know exactly what works and what doesn't.

Venting here, had a looooong day.

posted May 11, 2012 12:56 AM            

Let’s just say I had and still have a lot of issues with relationships and intimacy. I definitely had sex before marriage-with multiple partners, but I have a really hard time feeling comfortable with my own body and my sexuality, most of the time I don’t even enjoy sex to be honest. The guilt trips worked in that regard.

I’m sorry but for the parents who think they are doing the “right thing” by making their kids feel guilty about their own bodies and their sexuality because of the own issues they experienced growing up, this is extremely messed up and counter-productive imo. This causes psychological damage for years and years to come. And to say that preaching abstinence works is really disregarding the statistics, it seems a little ironic that the U.S. is so fixated on abstinence only sex ed in schools, yet we have one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the world….

posted May 11, 2012 01:28 AM            

To this day I'm still amazed by that. For someone raised with that so that it does make sense then imagine being told that the only use for your nose is to breathe, any enjoyment of baked goods was a sin and scented candles were a perversion that made you a sick, filthy person headed for eternal torment as it strikes me as equally unbelievable. (There's also “Kissing Hank's Butt” that explores that and other religious concepts, though an internet search didn't show me any that wasn't profane, I guess the cleaner versions are well hidden or expired.)

When I was once talking with some Christian goths (not that all are like this) some girls were talking about how guilty they felt about masturbating, which they considered cheating on a husband they haven't even met yet. Now that may be bizarre, but nothing wrong with being a little strange, yet they were TORTURED by their lack of purity and I couldn't help but pity them and be very grateful I wasn't raised that way. And they're not the only ones:
http://www.utne.com/Mind-Body/Dirty-Girls-Ministries-Evil-Female-Masturbation.aspx

What compounded the tragedy of that was how many married early just to relieve themselves of the pressure only to find they were still plagued by the instincts the Creator gave them (as well as likely having made a mistake that could mess up the rest of their lives):

quote:

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Many girls in Renaud’s ministry think that once they get married, they will be free to express their sexuality and enjoy orgasms with a man. This causes some to take the fast track to the altar, only to find that after they’ve married, they still feel the same taboo urges. One forum commenter married at 19 in the hope that pious matrimonial intercourse would rid her of her sinful thoughts—only to find that during sex with her husband, she would have the same fantasies. “I cannot cleanse my mind of these images,” she says. “I try so hard to focus on my husband only, but my thoughts are so warped.”

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posted May 11, 2012 04:56 AM            

quote:

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I believe in mind-body medicine, I believe this was part of her very conflicted views on sex.

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Faith - I also believe in that. I completely agree with what you said.

Pixie -

quote:

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that is to make money off of people feeling guilty for a natural instinct which would be a huge money maker), or at least justify their existence (if you're guilty, then you need forgiveness, and even if the church doesn't charge money for it they can make up for it in tithes, as well as political power

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Absolutely spot on!

You can't expect everyone to pick up on these things though. Not everyone thinks outside the box.

I used to care, but I've lost interest.
As I said above - each to their own. I have my own life & destiny to worry about and my own choices to consider.
I've wasted too much energy trying to change things/people/the world around me -- in the past -- when I found something upsetting.

But I just grew out of this phase in my life... because it is not up to me, at the end of the day.
They have their own brain - They can make their own decisions & their decisions do have consequences... so it is not actually my problem. They can learn from their own mistakes.

That's my take on this now ^

And the victims of their mistakes.. well... that is really sad -- but I am not God.. so I can't singlehandedly protect all the innocent people of the world from injustice. Injustice *just* is.

posted May 11, 2012 05:00 AM            

quote:

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I just can't imagine inflicting that psychic pain and pointless guilt on anyone

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If you want to survive in this world, as it is.. you cannot be so sensitive.

posted May 11, 2012 05:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
My mother also had that puritanical streak. I was totally going to hell if I had premarital sex, no if's, and's, or buts.

Yet she had a VERY HEARTY appreciation for how great marital sex can be. I know because she grossed me out by talking about it.

Now here's where I will not compare to YTA's wife, I am not trying to suggest anything about her.

---

posted May 11, 2012 05:37 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sashar:
On a couple of side notes: I really do enjoy hearing opposing sides. Even if the other person only happens to be playing devil's advocate (which I understand you're not doing exactly).

And, it seems like it's more of a no watching porn and/or sexualizing women thing. If that's the case, I can completely understand. But... is it really a punishable offense to masturbate, say in bed after everyone goes to sleep with just his brain, in your household? I mean, is the masturbation the offense itself? If so, why? -Keep in mind, I am a serious science advocate... I won't argue with your point of view (well, I might but not in a mean spirited way) but that's where I'm coming from when reading it.

---

It's primarily a matter of matronly respect and self respect. It's a matter of disciple. Most of all, it's a matter of faith and belief, and living by principles set forth by religion.

I myself don't take things that far, but likewise, no porn in the house and no masturbation. There's no time or energy left for masturbation after I've pleased my wife!

When I was a teen, I was oogling and lusting after girls at Bible Study and from the church pew, and we would have sex right after leaving church!

posted May 11, 2012 06:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
This is what my parents & grandparents did with me.. so I'll do the same thing. They were always very honest.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Delilah:
Anyway, do/would any of you stress to your children, nieces, or nephews how the other person should treat them and vice versa?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
I can post another 10 perfectly good reasons why I think - chastising sexuality is wrong... But is that really going to change anything at all in anyone's lives?

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posted May 11, 2012 06:41 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
It's primarily a matter of matronly respect and self respect. It's a matter of disciple. Most of all, it's a matter of faith and belief, and living by principles set forth by religion.

I myself don't take things that far, but likewise, no porn in the house and no masturbation. There's no time or energy left for masturbation after I've pleased my wife!

---

The first I can understand even if I don't agree with it.

The second, I got an image of my ex husband trying to say the same thing. It's a nice thing to say, but from him it would have had me running for the door. Four to five hours every two or three days was enough if not too much for me. To get him to that level of satisfaction, I don't think I'd be able to walk, and I'd be in pain all the time. XD

Anyway, everyone is different. I'm sure you and your wife would take a different approach if your children's personalities were ones that this approach would cause an opposite reaction. That's part of being a parent, learning the person and teaching your values accordingly.

posted May 11, 2012 09:46 PM            

So was my mother. Mid-August must be sex fiend birthday time.

Odette: I'm glad you agree, about the mind-body connection.

I forgot to clarify this other issue: when I said sex could be heaven or hell literally, I meant that my parents were strict Catholics who believed they HAD to "be fruitful and multiply" (or at least try their best) OR they were going to hell.

I don't know if my mom even WANTED six children but she agonized over the decision to have her tubes tied after six. She was really scared God was going to clobber her for that.

Again...no wonder she got ovarian cancer.

This is such an interesting conversation and I really appreciate all your honest responses. I do feel that I was harmed by Catholicism's draconian, twisted, dark view of sexuality, even though it was never in my personality to be promiscuous, anyway.

And I'm fine now- happily married with no issues about that.

It helps that I defied my parents' wishes by leaving the Catholic church as soon as I could (refused to get confirmed, refused to attend mass) and so I escaped what would have been, to me, just more psychic abuse.

posted May 13, 2012 09:17 PM            

I empathize with your upbringing as a Catholic. The difference between you and I is that you had no choice because you were born Catholic, and you walked out.

My parents were as far away from being Christian as possible. My dad worshipped whatever deity brought him the most money each year, and my mom worshipped whatever deity kept my dad as far away from her as possible. I walked into Christianity on my own accord against their will and got myself baptized a Christian twice. I started out at five years old and my parents just saw Bible Study as Sunday babysitting service. I went to church because two very cute sisters asked me, and i was five years old and they were mu play buddies. I found God that way.

As to how an Asian kid in Southeast Asia became a Charismatic Evangelical Southern Baptist, glory Hallelujah but praise God that's for a different story. And my wife born in Atlanta and raised in Knoxville, Tennessee is a Soutgern Bsptist too. I tried us with the United Methodists but apparently, it isn't hardcore enough.

posted May 14, 2012 08:37 AM            

LOL about your mom praying to whatever diety would keep your Dad away, too.

Question for you, feel free to ignore it since it's admittedly nosy: did you have a lot of guilt while you were, uh...waiting to get married?

If so, do you think the guilt served any constructive purpose in your life?

Looking back on the sex-guilt I had, I feel that it was purely negative and served no good purpose. My first experience was with a man I truly loved, and I felt he truly loved me.

But I was still recovering from Catholicism and he could tell. Like Odette said before, anyone with "issues" is a turn-off, and that's how my boyfriend must have felt about me. He didn't want to cause me any guilt so...he just went on his merry way after a while.

The whole experience would have been better, as I define "better," if I didn't have those psychic battle wounds from the religious tyrants of my past. If I had just been free and whole.

posted May 14, 2012 09:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
[b]OM Goodness!!!

LOL about your mom praying to whatever diety would keep your Dad away, too.

Question for you, feel free to ignore it since it's admittedly nosy: did you have a lot of guilt while you were, uh...waiting to get married?

If so, do you think the guilt served any constructive purpose in your life?

Looking back on the sex-guilt I had, I feel that it was purely negative and served no good purpose. My first experience was with a man I truly loved, and I felt he truly loved me.

But I was still recovering from Catholicism and he could tell. Like Odette said before, anyone with "issues" is a turn-off, and that's how my boyfriend must have felt about me. He didn't want to cause me any guilt so...he just went on his merry way after a while.

The whole experience would have been better, as I define "better," if I didn't have those psychic battle wounds from the religious tyrants of my past. If I had just been free and whole.

I would like my children to be very prudent about sex, but also free and whole. That's the balance I am looking for.[/B]

---

I felt tremendous guilt.

A good Christian girl of the South Baptist faith is supposed to rebuff and reject any man who has had premarital sex, period. Since divorce is also taboo, the only way a man could have had sex is if he is a widower. Likewise for a widow.

I questioned my wife twice. I made my background clear and gave her the full option of walking away if she felt a need to. Twice she refused. I didn't bother her a third time.

As you are probably aware, we mutually chose to live together for the two months between the time of the engagement proposal and the marriage. We slept in the same bed and never engaged in anything. Keep in mind that she sleeps in the buff (only panties) and all that time I kept my hands to myself.

She asked me for my ground rules. Mine were: if we were supposed to sleep in the same bed and not have sex, then we will not have physical contact should she be topless, and that should she be compelled to parade around in front of me, then she shouldn't feel offended should I look away. Her rules were standard for the denomination: no sex, no masturbation, no porn, no Johnson at attention ever (even though its natural), no sexual innuendo.

Oh I didn't seem to carry any psychic religious battle wounds when I was with a whole bunch of women! Guilt before and guilt after was common, but not during the acts, for sure.

You know my background: sexually raped by a homosexual at 10 years old. First sex forced upon at 13-1/2 years old by a group of silly friends with a prostitute. Imagine being held down by teenage girls and being mounted by a prostitute. That was also like being raped.

From then on, there were episodes of sex out of love, and many episodes of sex for the heck of it, by just being bored. It was almost routine: go to a party, pick up a drink (even though a minor) and therefore proceed to have sex.

Yes, guilt was prevalent at marriage. Imagine trying to honestly recant how I had sex with three women in the same bed in graduate school. Imagine trying to explain how there was a social club by invitation only, where you were selected by resume and interview, as though it were a job, so that women could select from a pool of eligible bachelors with high income producing potential and yet have prowress, where the ratio of women to men was intentionally kept at 2-to-1. I was ashamed of all that after the fact, naturally. After about 110+ women, it would be hypocritical for me to say "oh, I was actually guilty before I decided that I shouldn't be guilty."

I never said that I'm a saint. Never been one before, and will never be one. I gather things may have been quite different if I had not been raped as a child, but that's just making excuses. I'm fundamentally a h0rny kid that grew up to become a practical man.

posted May 14, 2012 01:35 PM            

I don't know how a ten-year-old can ever recover from rape but nobody can blame you for being screwed up after that. Seems doubtful that your experience at 13 made it any better.

Can I ask what you were looking for? JUST the physical pleasure or something else?

Was your Taurus girlfriend's betrayal an issue in that, too? Like you were getting revenge? Just curious.

Your story reminds me a lot of another Gemini moon guy I know; his girlfriend died when he was 18 and he was mad at the world and didn't want an emotional connection with other women, but he made up for that by sleeping around on a colossal scale.

Feel free to ignore my questions, as usual.

Your restraint in living with your wife before marriage seems almost superhuman.

I don't want my kids to feel like they HAVE to be like that. But I think religion makes for those extreme situations, where you have to deny your feelings and pretend/repress/constrain for the sake of propriety or your own moral code.

posted May 14, 2012 02:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
Thank you for the honest answer!

I don't know how a ten-year-old can ever recover from rape but nobody can blame you for being screwed up after that. Seems doubtful that your experience at 13 made it any better.

Can I ask what you were looking for? JUST the physical pleasure or something else?

Was your Taurus girlfriend's betrayal an issue in that, too? Like you were getting revenge? Just curious.

Your story reminds me a lot of another Gemini moon guy I know; his girlfriend died when he was 18 and he was mad at the world and didn't want an emotional connection with other women, but he made up for that by sleeping around on a colossal scale.

Feel free to ignore my questions, as usual.

Your restraint in living with your wife before marriage seems almost superhuman.

I don't want my kids to feel like they HAVE to be like that. But I think religion makes for those extreme situations, where you have to deny your feelings and pretend/repress/constrain for the sake of propriety or your own moral code.

I'm still working out how I feel about abstinence, with respect to my children. I value restraint, and would prefer if they waited until marriage. On the other hand, I have no interest in telling them what to do, that's their private life, and I want them to have the luxury of just that....a PRIVATE life.

---

Oh I secretly hated all women inside my heart after my Taurus girlfriend. I was monogamous for the 2+ years we were together, even though I went to school abroad and had ample oppotunity to sleep around in high school.

After that, it was pure aggression. I was in the military and my job required high levels of physical activity and danger, and it produced inordinate amounts of testosterone. I was around buff men all week, and at times I spent three weeks in the jungle not seeing a single female. When I let out on the weekends, I was let loose. With no committed girlfriend, I simply "went for it."

Then, I came to America to go to college. I started off at UCLA, basking in the warm sun, beach and all that.

And then I transferred to New York. It was rough developing a true love relationship at first because I still had a foreign accent and still had the demure demeanor developed my my early years in the UK. That didn't stop the women rotating through my life.

Money didn't buy love, but it sure attracted the girls. College girls would readily flock to whichever guy who could pamper them with fine food and possessions. It inordinately led to a bedding session.

I had committed girlfriends in college, and most lasted for as long as they could. The girls themselves wanted variety and one broke off the relationship mutually so that she could sleep with another guy. I said, sure; your BFF wants me anyway lol

As I grew older, all my girlfriends were Capricorn/Taurus. They were all attractive, but heavily career/success focused.

When I met my wife, I knew that marriage was a foregone conclusion. I was willing to sacrifice anything to ensure that the marriage succeeded. As to how I managed to remain celibate for two months, I don't know and understand, but I did. It was time to "man up" and be the Christian I said I was. I made a vow to my wife that I would always be a true Christian. That was the fine print in the underlying contract I signed with her.

Your kids should never be like that. If they are raised as Catholics, then they would always have to look to confession to relieve themselves off the guilt of sin.

I personally wasn't raised a Catholic, and redemption of sin is through Faith. It means coming clean within my own heart.

I would suggest the concept of sensible restraint, and no necessarily total celibacy until marriage. Love has mysterious ways. Just ensure they understand that sex should only occur when love occurs, and that it's never to be some form of bargaining chip.

posted May 14, 2012 04:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Yin:
Faith, you have this calm mothering energy about you. I really like it.

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Thank you Yin! You're nice, too!

Ian, thanks again, I'll be back later, 'got more to say and try to interview you about.

posted May 14, 2012 09:06 PM            

Ian, one thing you cleared up for me is the link between soldiers and prostitution. That testosterone increases when you are out there being aggressive in general...why did that never occur to me?

So we hear of Nazi soldiers having a...*fumbles around for euphemism*...good time, sexually, while killing people.

That's the extreme. Prostitution looks minor compared to that. I guess the difficult question I want to ask you is, what's the solution?

I wouldn't want to be a military wife having my husband take everything out on me; I wouldn't want him sleeping around abroad either.

This is the kind of situation where *self-care* seems the most moral, healthful release possible. OR people can just stay out of the military.

quote:

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It was time to "man up" and be the Christian I said I was. I made a vow to my wife that I would always be a true Christian. That was the fine print in the underlying contract I signed with her.

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Well I believe in God. So maybe God intervened on your behalf. Sometimes we just get a break, right?

quote:

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If they are raised as Catholics, then they would always have to look to confession to relieve themselves off the guilt of sin.

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No, I haven't been Catholic for a long time and I married into the Presbyterian church. We don't go to church but we consider ourselves Protestant- me, almost nominally so; my husband is devout. Our kids know and respect the Bible but not nearly as much as they would if I were also devout. I prefer it this way.

quote:

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Just ensure they understand that sex should only occur when love occurs, and that it's never to be some form of bargaining chip.

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Will do, Ian. That's the bottom line, I agree for many reasons.

Cheers, nice talking with you!