posted December 29, 2012 06:12 PM            

Where I grew up, possession of a weapon is life imprisonment and use of a weapon in the commission of a crime has a penalty by execution.

I can use guns exceedingly well, and I have been very well trained to do so. However, should I bring a gun into public, I can be assured that 90% of men in the 18 years old to 55 year old age group can do a 2 cm grouping at 25 meters (75 feet), never mind the police. Every able bodied man can put three holes into the same spot on a skull without sweating it. Try to be a butthead and you wouldn't last very long.

For the last guy who smuggled an automatic rifle and held his family hostage, the country sent in its version of special forces and emptied as many rounds as they could into his pathetic body. There is no posse comitatus. You want suicide by cop, you get the equivalent of the US Rangers or Marine Force Recon. There are no gangs with guns. There is no gun violence. There is no bullying without severe consequences. Bullying in school gets the kid sent to the cop station and the parents bailing the kid out of the cop station lockup. End of story. Forget that, there isn't even civil protest: once those who riot see the soldiers get off their truck with belt-fed machine gun ammo and rocket launchers, they lose interest quickly.

posted December 29, 2012 06:32 PM            

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Originally posted by juniperb:
COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER !!

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The trouble with the above is religious nations (including Christian ones, including the US but I'm also thinking of how Ireland used to be, plus Serbia and Russia among others) tend to be a lot more violent than secular nations, so it seems unlikely. Throw in that most of our convicts are deeply religious (at the time they commit their crimes), and that I've known plenty who are secular who are actually much nicer than the typical religious person (be it New Age, Christian, etc), that Christians themselves can be exceedingly uncivilized (like when several posted and LIKED on a blog that atheists should be tortured, raped, and crucified), and that Christianity actually promotes bullying in the USA (many victims of which suicide and a few lash out with a gun) I just don't think it's plausible when there are so many other factors involved. Much more importantly, school prayer (not to include the pledge which had "under God" added in in the 50s IIRC) was officially stopped (not to be confused with "banned") in the early 1960s, whereas school shootings didn't start to rise until the very late 1990s (with many possible reasons that aren't as doubtful)...many of the shooters (including one of those at Columbine who urged the other to help him) were placed on psyche meds. It also ignores that crime in general has been going down and kids are getting better more often than not:

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Kids these days. We all know the basic jeremiad: They're media-addled, affectless, nihilist, subliterate, a Clockwork Orange-style army of "superpredators," teen gunmen, and garden-variety sociopaths waiting to happen. Advertising has hypnotized them. Video games have conditioned them to kill without feeling. And pop culture has hammered every conceivable kind of coarseness -- from anonymous sex to Satanism, from glorified violence to Internet passivity -- into their poignantly echoing little craniums. Is it any wonder that most of them are but a bully's slight or a chatroom flame away from raining hot-lead vengeance on schoolrooms or playgrounds?

Well, yes, actually. It is, indeed, a considerable wonder that any part of this hysterical caricature should command serious discussion in the first place. As almost no media outlet is going to tell you, kids these days are astonishingly well-adjusted, nonviolent, educated, and polite. Nearly all the leading indicators of social ills among American adolescents -- drug use, violent assault, teen pregnancy, drop-out rates, you name it -- have been declining for at least 10 years now. More teens are graduating high school and attending college than ever before. A record number of American teens volunteer their time to charitable causes -- twice as many as their counterparts of 20 years past. Math SATs are at a 30-year high. Hell, even teen literacy is increasing: A recent survey conducted by the National Education Association found that 41 percent of teen respondents said they read 15 books or more a year. How many adults can claim a comparable intake?

Meanwhile, social scientist Mike Males of the Justice Policy Institute -- one of the only honest inquirers into the condition of American adolescents -- has cataloged the remarkable degree and scope of the recent turnaround in teen conduct. (His most recent research is available online at alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=10904.)

In 1999 the number of homicides committed by teens was down 62 percent from what it had been in 1990. Over the same period, rapes in which adolescents were charged declined 27 percent, teen-perpetrated violent crime generally was down 22 percent, the incidence of sexually transmitted disease decreased 50 percent, births were down 17 percent, abortions were down 15 percent, and drunken driving offenses plummeted 35 percent.

The only behaviors registering upticks over the same period -- smoking (up 13 percent based on average monthly intake) and drug fatalities (up 11 percent) -- have been the targets of the most aggressive adult-sponsored "zero-tolerance" interventions, a development that Males soundly suggests is no coincidence.

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Yet you desperately wish, across the many alarmist pages of Parents Under Siege, The Maturity Myth, and their many literary cousins, that there was a different sort of "mindfulness" at work on behalf of younger Americans. Teens and young adults do have legitimate troubles, after all, but most of them have more to do with the behavior of the adults in their world. In addition to child poverty, two of the most salient "risk factors" that can determine teen maladjustment -- child abuse and divorce -- show no signs of a long-term downturn.

For all the hysteria over schoolyard shootings and the death-dealing culture of Goth rock and video games, 16 school-age victims were killed in violent crime incidents (including suicides, and one victim of something called "Fragile X Syndrome") on or near schools over the 2000�2001 academic year; 19 violent deaths, including suicides, occurred on or near school grounds the year before. Meanwhile, abusive adults still kill children at the remarkably high rate of five fatalities a day -- and even so, a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found in 1999 that deaths stemming from child abuse were being underreported by an estimated rate of 60 percent. A curious time, all in all, for Garbarino and Bedard to insist that the "socially toxic environment" of North America mandates that kids be subject to "more rather than less adult supervision, more rather than less intensive parenting, to reduce susceptibility to negative peer influences, to negative mass media influences, to the low self-esteem generated at school." To quote a non-Buddhist homily, charity begins at home

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posted December 30, 2012 12:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER !!

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quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
The trouble with the above is religious nations (including Christian ones, including the US but I'm also thinking of how Ireland used to be, plus Serbia and Russia among others) tend to be a lot more violent than secular nations, so it seems unlikely. Throw in that most of our convicts are deeply religious (at the time they commit their crimes), and that I've known plenty who are secular who are actually much nicer than the typical religious person (be it New Age, Christian, etc), that Christians themselves can be exceedingly uncivilized (like when several posted and LIKED on a blog that atheists should be tortured, raped, and crucified), and that Christianity actually promotes bullying in the USA (many victims of which suicide and a few lash out with a gun) I just don't think it's plausible when there are so many other factors involved. Much more importantly, school prayer (not to include the pledge which had "under God" added in in the 50s IIRC) was officially stopped (not to be confused with "banned") in the early 1960s, whereas school shootings didn't start to rise until the very late 1990s (with many possible reasons that aren't as doubtful)...many of the shooters (including one of those at Columbine who urged the other to help him) were placed on psyche meds. It also ignores that crime in general has been going down and kids are getting better more often than not:

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posted December 30, 2012 12:57 PM            

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Originally posted by Aquacheeka:
Not to be overly blunt, but myself and many non-Americans feel that it is too late for the US. Gun worship is deeply embedded in the national psyche, they're the most heavily-armed country in the world and guns are a part of their culture, which is why so many can't even fathom a country with few guns and gun owners - it's literally outside of their realm of comprehension. Imo, Americans will continue to be playing dodgeball with bullets forever because it's just too late for them. Their forefathers screwed them.

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posted December 30, 2012 01:09 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I love challenges like this but I'm a bit stumped as the numbers of mass shootings has gone up with more gun control while at the same time most countries with a lot less guns in legal circulation experience a lot less tragedies like this

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Bingo.

The issue surrounding the increase violence with guns isn't related to ownership laws or just access to weapons in general; Its the number of semi-automatic weapons in distribution right now and the EASE of access to some of them. The AR-15 is a common household name with most avid gun collectors with sales of the weapon jumping up each and every year. Outright banning the sale of Semi-Automatic assault rifles like the AR-1 isn't going to reduce the number of gun related violence nor will it stop high affiliated gang members and crime syndicates from having them (most crime syndicates have access to black market arms dealers who provide them either exported arms or stolen weapons.)

Law-enforcement officials can always initiate a buy back program to reduce the number of semi-automatic assault rifles currently in distribution. They certainly can't force legal gun owners to hand em over.

posted December 30, 2012 01:15 PM            

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which signs would you.. marry, kill, fcuk

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I AM EFFING GONNA KILL YOU

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posted December 30, 2012 01:28 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

If I were to be a contrarian to AG then I'd have to say that the number of guns enabled Adam (who was NOT bullied, btw) to carry out his massacre, and in my mind there is no excuse for him to have had access to those guns when his mom KNEW he was crazy (she was trying to have him committed after all). In fact, I feel almost nothing for Adam, he's just a rabid dog to me, insane and without accountability. It's similar to the person who knows their dogs are violent menaces but let them run loose anyway, I don't blame the dogs (though don't care if someone shoots the dogs either, in fact it's for the best, but that's more Vulcan logic than any form of hate), I blame the owners who know and don't care.

She should've had her guns locked away. It actually makes sense, safes help protect guns from both disaster (such as a fire) to burglary, so it's a wise investment (granted, good safes cost money which means less guns, but I can't say I'm all that sympathetic to that consideration when one has a dozen or more guns). And if she had a good safe, especially biometric (given her armory she had the money to afford such as well), Adam could not have gotten those guns. In theory he may have gained access to say one gun on his mother's person when he snapped, or he may have resorted to other weapons, but unless he pursued a very unlikely course of action (or luck was really bad at the time) then even in this case the death toll would've been much less.

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posted December 30, 2012 01:58 PM            

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
I find it unnerving that the most violent people I have personally known, from literally a 2 year old to adults,
were from "Good Christian" homes and they were very into prayer and tooting their horns as to what perfect people they were.
I and others I love have been abused and threatened, raped, and even death threats by these people

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I could really share some stories about a Catholic Church I used to live only 2 blocks from but I don't wish to derail this thread, but they were some of the most callous people ever with true evil among them and it's too bad that they weren't as concerned with child sex trafficking or the rape culture many of their members partook in (or the sexual abuse rampant in their own church) than with gays in love, and it's shocking that after several rude people (blocking driveways and stuff) came to pray for the passing of an antigay measure (more people showing up than for Easter!) one intentionally pulled out of his parking spot fast to run over a neighbor's cat while the neighbor watched (and she lost 2 cats that to vehicles, not just one), and that act of evil was done immediately after having prayed in church! (I'm sure he'd feel moral outrage if someone were to kill a cat in the name of Satan, however, rather than for the evil joy in his Christ-loving heart and probably wouldn't understand why I helped homeless cats instead of killing cats for fun like him.) And on a more trivial note it would've been nice if those who cleaned the lot could've picked up dog crap less than a foot off their property (and on the public sidewalk that their members used along with everyone else) but even that act of goodness was too much (I ended up cleaning it up for them). But I'm supposed to say they're better people than me? Forget that! (And it's not just Catholics, that church is but one example.)

Of course it gets much worse. I was at a lesbian club once when some men wrote down license plate numbers and I, in my naivete, tried talking sense into their leader. He was the type of Christian that made Westboro look sane, and he threatened that one of their members would kill me and/or my girlfriend of the time when we least expected it as they had our license plate number now and we wouldn't know who it was who was going to execute us as the Bible commanded until it was too late. Turned out the guy who threatened me was a convicted felon and a member of the Army of God (a Christian terrorist organization which normally goes after doctors who perform abortions but have gone after lesbians as well, which is interesting in that their most infamous member, the one who also bombed the Olympics, bombed a lesbian club in Atlanta for them and yet he had a gay male friend, which is just one more reason why I see pro-life as actually being a hatred of women rather than love for the unborn as it's the only thing that makes sense out of all their actions) and was told by a deputy who took my report (someone else called them because I wasn't the only one they threatened) to take the threat seriously and as a result I was able to get a CCW permit in California (those aren't easy to get, btw, but deputies determined it might be necessary to save my life from Christian fanatics).

But the really sad thing was I went to a gun range to refresh my shooting skills and the range sold my membership info to several right wing organizations including antigay groups and I got a lot of scary spam (and reminders why I wanted a gun). And one member there thought it was ok to shoot gays who made advances and another (after having seen an incredibly silly FOX News lie by O'Reilly) told me that if I came across any Pink Pistol lesbians (he thought I was a heterosexual Christian, my Texas accent works wonders like that sometimes) to "shoot to kill." I eventually stopped going as it freaked me out. Of course many support "kill the gays" bill in Africa showing what they want to happen here (and one of those Christians, btw, gave the prayer at Obama's inauguration showing the political clout they have, or at least had, I think enough people saw the ugliness of their spirits after major Republicans backed by them and sharing their message started being a lot more open in 2010 and it has hurt their cause), and I heard a few others say gays should be executed or put in ghettos, but they usually only say it when they think they're among kindred spirits, they stay silent (sometimes even lie) if they think others won't be sympathetic.

Anyway, I mentioned that Christians said atheists should be tortured, raped, and crucified earlier so here it is:
http://onemansblog.com/2011/08/06/christians-openly-advocate-killing-a thiests-on-fox-news-facebook-page/

I love what Alyona had to say about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjmLnC3T9Ds

For more (and as I used to follow ZJ I know she skipped a lot of hateful comments and even wishes for death and damnation):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWyD-ae2iCE

That attitude also serves as an example of what's wrong with this country and why I'm not surprised it's so violent. People think that's acceptable behavior when they think they can get away with it. That is, they're showing who they really are. It's why I'm not surprised we live in such a violent nation when people don't feel ashamed to be that hateful.

posted December 30, 2012 02:22 PM            

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Originally posted by hannaramaa:
Read Amanda Todd's story and try to tell me bullying is a healthy exercise of darwinism. Or this one: http://jezebel.com/5844523/bullies-continue-to-taunt-gay-teen-who-committed-suicide

"Bullying" isn't normal school-yard bullying today, it's not just roughing someone up on the playground because he's small. It's an epidemic and one in which both parties suffer from mental illness, I think. What kind of healthy person who is exercising their dominance has no empathy? It's impossible.

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You won't see me say it is healthy, not at all, it is however, reality.

Society happily assigns roles, this starts in the 1st grade and continues unto death.

I personally cannot stand bullies, they smell like **** to me, I hold them in the highest contempt imaginable.

Got into several fights in school b/c of these slugs.

A group of middle schooler boys were working this girl I somewhat knew and it was obvious to me they were trying to get her to sleep with the whole lot of them.

Told the leader to STFU, he said do you want to make me?

Sure.

When he saw I was serious he said "after class"

He and his little clique spent the class clatching like old hens about how bad ass they were.

Class ends, we go out back, I deck him (he tried to use Tae Kwon Do kicks) and hopped on him and proceeded to beat the snot out of him.

So much so I was suspended.

When I returned to class guess who was no longer in that class?

posted December 30, 2012 03:02 PM            

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Originally posted by juniperb:
A lump em all together Christian bashing party

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Nope. I've described many Christians I get a long with (just one example). I've mentioned Russian Orthodox I've admired and gotten along with and homeless Christians I helped form a Bible study before when even a preacher wouldn't help them as well. However, a majority of Christians are being overlooked and we're supposed to pretend they don't exist, and I'm not willing to go along with that. Even many Christians are willing to stand up and say "Westboro is not with us" and yet why don't they with say Exodus International? (In fact, a great many support groups like that, including Chick Fil A.)

In any case it goes to show that Darrell Scott is wrong about the reasons for violence. And that's just one of the reasons.

posted December 30, 2012 03:12 PM            

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Originally posted by juniperb:
A lump em all together Christian bashing party

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"If the world hates you don't be surprised, remember it hated me first"

posted December 30, 2012 03:36 PM            

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Originally posted by juniperb:
A lump em all together Christian bashing party

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posted December 31, 2012 05:07 PM            

Of course history provides even more examples, from Jim Jones to the Branch Davidians (the majority of the members of both raised in deeply religious homes, and in some cases, with mandatory school prayer), and even Hitler exploited the strong Lutheran values of Nazi Germany with many references to God (from a Lutheran perspective, Luther being very antisemitic as well as not liking Catholics, of course) in speeches, medals...and school (mandatory school prayer, IIRC). And even Stalin spent years of his childhood in a religious school (didn't appear he accepted the religion, but he certainly was raised with mandatory prayers, commandments, etc).

posted December 31, 2012 05:20 PM            

The truly sick thing about Sodini is he had guys actually supporting what he did afterwards.