posted January 02, 2013 10:07 AM            

At times yes and at times no.

I think the Biblical illiteracy part is the situation one describes, some adore the OT and completely miss the purpose of Christ first coming to Israel.

And it also should be pointed out that slavery was also to be abolished every 7 yrs, for debtors, and every 50 yrs there was to be a Jubilee were all sold property was to be returned and all slaves were to be freed.

Of course, that never happened.

The tale of David and Bathsheba highlights man's terrible nature, even among those who were considered "righteous and upstanding". I see it as a cautionary tale of what lust does to those in power and by extension what then happened to the country.

Another fallacy is not keeping the era of the OT in context, slavery, adultery, even prostitutes (male and female) were pretty much SOP for the bronze age.

posted January 02, 2013 10:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:

Your average "Bible Teacher" will never engage such topics, they prefer the soft shoe rather than dealing with the ugly along with the brilliant and this is a disservice as it paints a false picture.

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posted January 02, 2013 10:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
Basically, preaching from the bible(s)
will not end violence.
Religion is at the root of the world's problems more often than not. http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000418.html
Also I do not believe in the Christ mythos. http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000004.html
I do not want to see that pushed in schools.
It also is showing favoritism to one religion and ignoring or even condemning other religions and atheists.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:

Your average "Bible Teacher" will never engage such topics, they prefer the soft shoe rather than dealing with the ugly along with the brilliant and this is a disservice as it paints a false picture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
A big disservice indeed.
Also following a book that is severely socially outdated/bronze age etc;
full of violence and intolerance;
is not a wise move.

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Atheism and Secular Humanism has put tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people into the grave.

For the relatively petty squabbles religion may cause it is piker compared to what State sanctioned violence has wrought

As for it being the Bronze Age, have people really changed in 4 thousand yrs or so since Israel was created?

Nope, not a bit, same stuff still happens every day around the world. With that in mind such an approach is not outdated if anything it offers insight into how people actually instead of how we would prefer them to be.

posted January 02, 2013 01:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
Atheism and Secular Humanism has put tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people into the grave.

For the relatively petty squabbles religion may cause it is piker compared to what State sanctioned violence has wrought

As for it being the Bronze Age, have people really changed in 4 thousand yrs or so since Israel was created?

Nope, not a bit, same stuff still happens every day around the world. With that in mind such an approach is not outdated if anything it offers insight into how people actually instead of how we would prefer them to be.

I find it cynically amusing that proponents of Evolution never quite getting around to embracing the fact (according to their pov) that we are merely a higher order of apes, with the same animalistic behaviors.

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posted January 02, 2013 02:14 PM            

Their rants provide a reverse view that the Fundalmentalists do and the extremes can be amusing. And more amusing is both parties take the Bible literal....

posted January 02, 2013 02:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
While I haven`t reached the cynical stage yet, I find the anti God, anti Jesus and anti Bible ranters amusing.

Their rants provide a reverse view that the Fundalmentalists do and the extremes can be amusing.

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To me the school system has reached the point of perhaps needing meditation or Tai Chi classes.

IMO, public schools/middle high school are pressure cookers with little in the way of offering positive, constructive, releases of the pressure.

posted January 02, 2013 03:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
For the relatively petty squabbles religion may cause it is piker compared to what State sanctioned violence has wrought

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Not really. POSSIBLY in the 20th century, though even that doesn't sound likely.

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
As for it being the Bronze Age, have people really changed in 4 thousand yrs or so since Israel was created?

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Western civilization has, by a lot, and the more they've put religion in the background the better off they've been. That said, I'm not sure if that's because religion gets in the way of progressive civilization or if the same factors that drive people to acts of violence (including by the state) are the very same ones that drive people to fundamentalist religions, which is to include making a fundamentalist religion out of the state (or conversely, if the factors that make a society more enlightened or civilized also cause the power of fundamentalist religion to wane as a matter of course).

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
find it cynically amusing that proponents of Evolution never quite getting around to embracing the fact (according to their pov) that we are merely a higher order of apes, with the same animalistic behaviors.

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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I do believe we're a higher order of ape...not even that much higher actually...but even apes don't torture and kill over matters of doctrine, and homosexual acts are rampant in nature while humanity is the only one I know of that displays homophobia (which is almost always religious based, and being unique to humans it's also the only thing that could be rightfully considered "unnatural"). And I see very rational reasons to embrace the Golden Rule (for reasons of Secular Humanism) without all the baggage that comes with religion, and I don't see that as contradictory to our natures. But then I don't see mind/soul as a dichotomy with our bodies, and I think many Christians do and that might explain why I'm having a very hard time understanding what you're getting at here because if so then you're envisioning "the nature of the beast vs. soul/Breath of God" whereas I'm seeing it as "we're beasts who can reason and act in our own enlightened self-interests with the realization animals are capable of love & beauty just as humans are."

posted January 02, 2013 03:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I do believe we're a higher order of ape...not even that much higher actually...but even apes don't torture and kill over matters of doctrine, and homosexual acts are rampant in nature while humanity is the only one I know of that displays homophobia (which is almost always religious based, and being unique to humans it's also the only thing that could be rightfully considered "unnatural"). And I see very rational reasons to embrace the Golden Rule (for reasons of Secular Humanism) without all the baggage that comes with religion, and I don't see that as contradictory to our natures. But then I don't see mind/soul as a dichotomy with our bodies, and I think many Christians do and that might explain why I'm having a very hard time understanding what you're getting at here because if so then you're envisioning "the nature of the beast vs. soul/Breath of God" whereas I'm seeing it as "we're beasts who can reason and act in our own enlightened self-interests with the realization animals are capable of love & beauty just as humans are."

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Rampant?

Not really, they do occur but for obvious reasons there are no purely homosexual animals in nature.

An ape is an ape, hard wired to the same stuff that went on when the OT was first penned.

As was sagely opined :

"A monkey in a silk suit is still a monkey in a silk suit".

Even more interesting is the structures that the Christian religion supplied in the West, secular humanism was born.

quote:

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I also see wanting to establish a religion as dominant as very simian behavior. That is, trying to impose Christianity in the schools at the expense of all other belief systems is similar (if more sophisticated) to the simians that fling crap at rival simians and mark territory with excrement to establish territory. (That said, I see a lot state worship the same way, such as the examples given of the USSR, China, and North Korea.)

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I'm not one of the people who believe Christianity should be imposed on anyone at all, quite the opposite I'd prefer the State keep their hands off as it reduces Christianity to political pawn of the State.

As with anything politicized it then draws opponents not based on itself, but b/c of the perceived alliance between a political faction and the religion.

As for simians flinging crap, happens all the time in so called "civilized" environments, the back stabbing, manipulations, seething hatred, these are merely dressed up forms of that behaviour.

posted January 02, 2013 03:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
Even more interesting is the structures that the Christian religion supplied in the West, secular humanism was born

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As a reaction against Christian barbarism. And it was the Enlightenment that also did a lot of detoxify Christianity itself as well.

posted January 02, 2013 03:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
there are no purely homosexual animals in nature.

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posted January 02, 2013 04:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
there are no purely homosexual animals in nature.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:

Untrue!
I have personally witnessed many homosexual animals of several species.

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No, you witnessed homosexual acts among animals in nature.

A purely homosexual animal would face the evolutionary end of the line due to a lack of procreation.

This is one of the ideas I really do wonder if evolutionists have considered, the full ramifications of that belief in application?

Interestingly enough, the two Colombine murderers were hard core atheists.

posted January 02, 2013 04:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
As a reaction against Christian barbarism. And it was the Enlightenment that also did a lot of detoxify Christianity itself as well.

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And as the State moved further away from a Christian world view, the slaughter has grown to staggering proportions.

Christianity badly needed the Enlightenment and Reformation to happen. It also led to the protestant work ethic that is slowly withdrawing as society moves further away from that is the voluntary ideal.

I posted a link earlier that showed a timeline of all of the school shootings, since 1980 all but 2, one of the prior attacks was committed by a mentally ill ex marine with a brain tumor.

8 of 10 or so have happened since 1980, one generation from the official removal of any mention of God, or Religion, in public schools.

posted January 02, 2013 04:14 PM            

Those who have no interest at all in the opposite sex, evolutionary theory would then, logically, lead to that trait being bred out due to a lack of procreation.

Interestingly enough, the Soviet used to consider homosexuality a mental illness, and they were as Atheist a State as has existed.

Which once again, has nothing to do with CT, I've never heard of Darrel Scott, have heard of the Westboro bunch and think they are trying to be provocative rather than speaking for God or a Biblical world view.

posted January 02, 2013 04:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
there are no purely homosexual animals in nature.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lexxigramer:

Untrue!
I have personally witnessed many homosexual animals of several species.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
No, you witnessed homosexual acts among animals in nature.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
A purely homosexual animal would face the evolutionary end of the line due to a lack of procreation.

---

posted January 02, 2013 04:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
That is an absurd conclusion!
Just like with humans;
a few homosexuals within a species
does not mean extinction of a species.
Not all would be homosexual just like humans are not all homosexual.
And homosexual humans do procreate by various means.

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posted January 02, 2013 07:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:

I think religion causes friction among those who should be natural allies for no real reason at all.

Further I think there are those who crave power and use Religion to acquire it.

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posted January 03, 2013 04:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre35:
the Soviet used to consider homosexuality a mental illness, and they were as Atheist a State as has existed.

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Not at first. But when Hitler cracked down on the gays Stalin decided he couldn't be any softer. The 2 were in a competition to be the biggest butt hole because they were proud of being ruthless dictators, and they thought punishing others proved their superiority and fitness to rule. Every time one went further in being a tyrant the other would step up and often take it a little further, and it was a vicious circle for the unfortunates living under both governments.

I expect equating homosexuality with capitalism (the USSR was a dark reflection of the USA, and vice versa) and the fact they wanted more babies (Russia is one of the very few countries where they have more deaths than births) contributed to that attitude (especially for whites, they hide it better than the USA but they have a strong racist white supremacist streak, though oddly many get angry if you point out how the invading Swedes changed their racial stock & linguistics). And on top of all this, a great many Russians remained religious (and, after Stalin at least, they were allowed full freedom to function as long as they didn't proselytize and minded their KGB babysitter, at least the Russian Orthodox did and I believe so did the other religions at work, perhaps because it was too much trouble to fully prohibit it). Showing up too often wasn't good for one's career prospects so the ambitious did not...until they retired when they started going to church again (because it didn't matter). Which is to say Christian values still had their effect (be it in competition with Hitler's Lutheranism or their own Russian Orthodox heritage).

posted January 03, 2013 06:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Not at first. But when Hitler cracked down on the gays Stalin decided he couldn't be any softer. The 2 were in a competition to be the biggest butt hole because they were proud of being ruthless dictators, and they thought punishing others proved their superiority and fitness to rule. Every time one went further in being a tyrant the other would step up and often take it a little further, and it was a vicious circle for the unfortunates living under both governments.

I expect equating homosexuality with capitalism (the USSR was a dark reflection of the USA, and vice versa) and the fact they wanted more babies (Russia is one of the very few countries where they have more deaths than births) contributed to that attitude (especially for whites, they hide it better than the USA but they have a strong racist white supremacist streak, though oddly many get angry if you point out how the invading Swedes changed their racial stock & linguistics). And on top of all this, a great many Russians remained religious (and, after Stalin at least, they were allowed full freedom to function as long as they didn't proselytize and minded their KGB babysitter, at least the Russian Orthodox did and I believe so did the other religions at work, perhaps because it was too much trouble to fully prohibit it). Showing up too often wasn't good for one's career prospects so the ambitious did not...until they retired when they started going to church again (because it didn't matter). Which is to say Christian values still had their effect (be it in competition with Hitler's Lutheranism or their own Russian Orthodox heritage).

I haven't noticed other Communist countries that weren't originally Christian being harsh on gays. China seems to shrug them off (they officially banned them but by now almost completely shrug it off, though anything to lessen the demand of available women for men might have something to do with that) and Viet Nam is actually one of the more progressive nations on this issue and even allow for gay pride parades without harassment (just try one of those parades today in Russia, it's guaranteed to result in both police & vigilante beatings, jail time for the most vocal, etc, and many Russians today cite their Russian Orthodox faith as to why).

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Hmm, one seems to have ones history mixed:

-Hitler went to confirmation at 13, never went back the to Catholic Church

-The SA, (Brown Shirts) was completely run by serious homosexuals, Hitler only dumped them when their leadership posed a threat to his power.

-Cuba used to institutionalize homosexuals as well, especially during their own version of the Aids epidemic.

-In the Soviet even baptisms were banned.

The US very very likely had the first homosexual President in the mid 1800's

-The DSMV, like it's Soviet counterpart, classified homosexuality as a mental illness until the early 70's when political activism, not science per se, had it removed, the Soviets did not do the same.

-Both Stalin and Hitler sent clergy to either death camps or gulags for being threats to the state.

posted January 03, 2013 07:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Difference between theory & practice. Just because there's gays running Nazi organizations doesn't mean that those in death camps with a pink triangle were there for something other than being gay (much like how many churches will condemn others for being gay, pedo, cheating spouse, etc, while excusing such clergy in their own church guilty of the very same thing and even aid and abet them in criminal behavior while demanding harsh laws for those not of their clergy doing the same thing), nor does it discount Hitler's speeches, medals, state run schools, etc, which were clearly Lutheran Christian (and also one of the biggest reasons why Germany embraced him and his message). And that, btw, is relevant to the thread at hand, by showing Christianity doesn't necessarily make people less violent or horrible.

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Heh, it merely shows when one does not have an ax to grind one can have a clearer sight of what actually happened, not what a bias would like to believe happened.

A politician pandering a to constituency group?

Say it ain't so.

Hitler, in fact was very "new age" until Hess flew to the British Isles presumably on advice of a psychic counselor.

quote:

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And I'm using a lot of history from Russians who lived it and/or interacted with it (and the news). American historians lie about the Russians just as much as the Russians lied about us. It's morbidly fascinating to get both official sides. But then I haven't heard of a government (or religion) yet that didn't lie in the history classes of the schools they run (which promotes a lot of historians with a subconscious political and/or religious bias, though the really serious ones can overcome that, especially when they go to the source and get other viewpoints).

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Eh, I've rarely seen a secular humanist engage the millions of bodies on their resumes' either.

Suspect what this discussion really comes down to is the folly of thinking any law, or moral position can effect a single persons actions more then that persons' heart and internal thought process can.