posted March 16, 2013 12:08 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I`m totally amused men see breasts as sexual. A breast is for the express purpose of feeding an infant... what does this say about our menfolk

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nothing brilliant to add.

posted March 16, 2013 12:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ail221:
So if anything that is sexually arousing should be covered maybe men with their deep voices and scruffy chin hair should wear veils and carry voice scramblers.

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posted March 16, 2013 12:17 AM            

quote:

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Pisces-Sweety: I don't think it's normal for a woman to go topless at a beach. What's wrong with just wearing a swimsuit bikini? A woman's body is sacred and I don't think she should be exposing herself like this. I mean, there has to be limits to what a woman should expose to the public.

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I'm going to challenge you with the spirit of debate in mind.

It isn't normal, for sure, but normal means that it happens fairly constantly at the moment. In the future, it could become normal, so that's not a good point to use.

posted March 16, 2013 03:10 AM            

quote:

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Pisces-Sweety: Self respect and topless dont go together in the same sentence

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posted March 16, 2013 03:15 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
inm gtoo setxy dfpor mtu sghirt

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posted March 16, 2013 03:17 AM            

re: " .gge"

I think he meant to type "giggle".

posted March 16, 2013 04:58 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Pisces-Sweety:
Self respect and topless dont go together in the same sentence. If you have self respect, you wouldnt be exposing your sacred body to strangers. And its not about denying her the right to do what she wants.. Its about a human being knowing the limit to what they can and should do.

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Circular reasoning.

quote:

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Originally posted by Pisces-Sweety:
a reason why many associate eve with the serpent

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Eve is one of the few mythical characters in the Bible whom I admire. In case anyone wonders why I'll let these 4 speak for me:

"Eve and the Serpent were right. [She opened up] a whole new world of consciousness. Every advance in literature, science, the arts can be traced mythically back to this event and in this light it is indeed Eve who is the original creator of civilization." --teacher n a theology class, before passing around an apple for all to bite and declare oneness with Eve.

"What could be more foolish than a being unable to distinguish between good from bad?...In short, God refused to let man taste of wisdom, than which there could be nothing more of value. So the serpent was the benefactor rather than a destroyer of the human race." --The works of the Emperor Julian, trans. Wilmer Cave Wright, 3 vols. (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1961), III, 327

"Human history begins with man's act of disobedience which is at the very same time the beginning of his freedom and development of his reason." --Erich Fromm

"Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion." --Oscar Wilde

posted March 16, 2013 05:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Pisces-Sweety:
Pixie: It's not circular reasoning. At least not in my opinion.

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You assert it's true because it's true, that is it's showing self-respect because someone with self-respect wouldn't do it.

Now if you could show how she damages herself...not just anyone, sure someone without self-respect could seek attention by stripping because that's the only way she'll be noticed, but that doesn't mean those on a nudist beach are that way, or a mother breastfeeding an infant in public is not respecting herself, they may simply not be ashamed of their body. If a woman feels no shame then how is she not respecting herself? Can you give any other reason than, "If she had self-respect she wouldn't do it"? If not then it's circular because it says she must cover her breasts if she has self-respect and you don't explain it you just assert it's true. That's circular reasoning. Or as defined by the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "the reasoner begins with what he or she is trying to end up with."

posted March 16, 2013 05:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Pisces-Sweety:
somethingexcellent: Also one more thing, I don't really think you're in a position to tell someone that their idea of something is restricting. I think it's absolutely ridiculous. So if I don't agree with you it means i'm on some level close minded? What kind of ******** logic is that? Don't ask for a reason (Which will create a debate) if you don't plan on going through with it. People come from different cultures and you NEED to UNDERSTAND that. You can claim that you understand that all you want but you don't. If you did, you wouldn't end the discussion abruptly simply because you got ticked off by what I said. I never forced you to accept it. Ps. Please travel more. Get out of your cultureless society. You'll be surprised by the beliefs and attitudes and norms of other people's cultures.

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No, she's saying it's because you can't explain it, that it's circular reasoning (though here you also add argumentum ad populum). She wanted a reason but all you could give is "because." She's looking for deeper thought than that. I'm not even sure she's ticked off, I think she's more exasperated you can't justify your position.

posted March 16, 2013 05:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
You assert it's true because it's true, that is it's showing self-respect because someone with self-respect wouldn't do it.

Now if you could show how she damages herself...not just anyone, sure someone without self-respect could seek attention by stripping because that's the only way she'll be noticed, but that doesn't mean those on a nudist beach are that way, or a mother breastfeeding an infant in public is not respecting herself, they may simply not be ashamed of their body. If a woman feels no shame then how is she not respecting herself? Can you give any other reason than, "If she had self-respect she wouldn't do it"? If not then it's circular because it says she must cover her breasts if she has self-respect and you don't explain it you just assert it's true. That's circular reasoning. Or as defined by the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "the reasoner begins with what he or she is trying to end up with."

Btw, is a man not respecting himself by going topless? If you believe a man can go topless and still show self-respect, then explaining the difference on why this is might help you not be circular in your reasoning.

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posted March 16, 2013 09:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Eve is one of the few mythical characters in the Bible whom I admire. In case anyone wonders why I'll let these 4 speak for me:

"Eve and the Serpent were right. [She opened up] a whole new world of consciousness. Every advance in literature, science, the arts can be traced mythically back to this event and in this light it is indeed Eve who is the original creator of civilization." --teacher n a theology class, before passing around an apple for all to bite and declare oneness with Eve.

"What could be more foolish than a being unable to distinguish between good from bad?...In short, God refused to let man taste of wisdom, than which there could be nothing more of value. So the serpent was the benefactor rather than a destroyer of the human race." --The works of the Emperor Julian, trans. Wilmer Cave Wright, 3 vols. (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1961), III, 327

"Human history begins with man's act of disobedience which is at the very same time the beginning of his freedom and development of his reason." --Erich Fromm

"Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion." --Oscar Wilde

I could say a lot more, but I'll leave it at that.

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posted March 16, 2013 09:56 AM            

This is slightly off topic (but maybe that's why they're called "threads" - they can wind and meander a bit), but I've never understood those who would assert atheism (or even a belief in and a hatred of a higher power) because "a good G-d would not allow suffering".

A universe without suffering is one without choice, a creation of automatons.

And now we can get into an impossible conversation regarding the possibility (or impossibility) of an omniscient G-d true free will

posted March 16, 2013 10:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mockingbird:
^ And the exercise of free will.

This is slightly off topic (but maybe that's why they're called "threads" - they can wind and meander a bit), but I've never understood those who would assert atheism (or even a belief in and a hatred of a higher power) because "a good G-d would not allow suffering".

A universe without suffering is one without choice, a creation of automatons.

And now we can get into an impossible conversation regarding the possibility (or impossibility) of an omniscient G-d true free will

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posted March 16, 2013 11:51 AM            

Re: self respect and breasts: For me, breasts are about as scintillating as any other part of the body - especially when they're being used to feed a baby.
But, I try to be cognizant of others' comfort.
I probably wouldn't nurse in public on the National Mall (except when using a Hooter Hider - that's a real product name, Google it) because DC's not known for being especially liberal regarding the human body and because there are likely to be tourists from around the world on any given day.

In a Mom's group, though, or in an especially granola town, I've done so uncovered.

I'll leave blazing a new trail on that front to others.
For now, this fish'll swim in the waters that be