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Author Topic:   Parenting Style: The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection
YoursTrulyAlways
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posted January 02, 2014 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is especially for parents, but chime in anyway. What do you think is the preferred parenting style?

At the beginning of 2011, about this time of the year, there was a whole controversy about correct parenting style with the release of a satirical memoir about parenting, which I will call the "Tiger Mom debate." That book was written in jest, but with some sensationalism, it generated a firestorm, leaving the author with heavier pockets and the public full of anger.

I present two extremes first, and then I'll go into my personal style.

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One Extreme - Teddy Bear parenting - happiness of kids is the main measure: protective, comforting, accommodative, conforming to kids' expectations of themselves.

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The Other Extreme - Wolf Dad - no need to discuss. Set ultra high expectations and then whack the kids until they are blue, and keep whacking them as they achieve their goals, and then whack them some more for good measure. Clearly whacked out parenting.
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/14/143659027/and-you-thought-the-tiger-mother-was-tough

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The Tiger Mom
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/14/132940238/A-Memoir-Of-A-Tiger-Mothers-Quest-For-Perfecti on

I generally don't agree with the author, and I know her superficially. Her younger daughter is going to be my son's classmate next year, and her older daughter will be a senior.
http://nypost.com/2011/01/18/why-i-love-my-strict-chinese-mom/
http://tigersophia.blogspot.com/

Here is the African version called the Lion Mom
http://www.binoandfino.com/blog-black-african-kids-show/2011/2/1/battle-hy mn-of-the-lion-mother.html

Basically, it is "no nonsense," high expectations, "no breaks," ultra strict parenting.

My wife subscribes to this model, and she would argue that the results she achieves in terms of achievement from her sons validates this model of parenting.

I would surmise that this method is also commonly employed in Jewish families.

My wife isn't Chinese or Asian - I am.

-------------------------------------------

The modern method - Dolphin Dad model. Raising kids to be happy will allow them to be smart, and therefore successful.

This is the prevalent method espoused by psychologists. I find this a bit too laxed for my tastes.
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-welln ess/articles/2013/08/01/dolphin-parenting-raising-kids-to-be-smart-and-happy

------------------------------------------

I call myself a Panda Dad. Affectionate and protective, focus on having a cheerful disposition and set realistically high expectations. Reward as generously as possible and lavish lots and lots of praise. But behind the back are serious bamboo sticks if corrective action were ever to be warranted. And attack all detractors unfailingly with some serious bear claws - people forget that "cute" pandas are bears.
http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/03/29/tiger-mom-meet-panda-dad/

-----------------------------------------

What are your views?

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Kerosene
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posted January 02, 2014 03:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kerosene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My parents had a hard time with my sisters.... 3rd times a charm?
With me they were more smart with me and often used basic psychology to get what they want out of me. Manipulation you can say..
It did work because they were obviously smarter than me LOL.
My parents are highly plutonic Mother has Scorpio moon conjunct neptune, Pluto conjunct NN
Father has mercury,venus, mars conjunct Pluto

If I was ever in a circumstance where I had to parent child it would be in a manner best suited for the child's personality.
If they shy and sensitive I'll also be gentle with them Of course still having a firm hand etc.
If they are independent and have problems with authority I'll keep my distance but still monitor their behavior and call them out when they are stepping out of bounds.
With my personality I would have an easier time adjusting my parenting style to suit that child's needs

The problem with tiger mom is if you have a gentle and sensitive child it can be very horrible for them.. Such children do want you to be proud of them so why do you need to eat away at them?

I think you are good father YTA. I think while your are firm you aren't overbearing either which is a good balance.
Whatever works best for you, if it's unnatural for you to be a certain way you'll fail at parenting them properly.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted January 02, 2014 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, Kerosene.

I honestly grew into my parenting role and had no bright ideas off the bat.

My father was an overbearing man with ultra high expectations. My mother believed in the carrot and the stick, where the carrots were great but the sticks left me emotionally scarred.

I didn't know how to be a parent in my 30s. I pretty much wanted a high achieving kid but I didn't want to govern with a firm hand because I had a miserable childhood.

My wife has been uniformly firm.

We are blessed with an older one who has been outright cooperative and compliant. I have a younger one who is going to be much more of a challenge because he is fiesty and talks back.

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Padre35
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posted January 02, 2014 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Good article YTA

For me the key is to have structure and discipline but also to allow creativity to flourish.

Then it would become structured creativity, say piano lessons, or unstructured creativity say learning how to identify wild edible plants.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted January 02, 2014 05:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Padre. So you'll still have some structure and discipline.

The most common style I have encountered is no structure and basically no discipline. The Dolphin Dad model depends on the child's happiness as a gauge of success. I find it a tad too lax.

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Faith
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posted January 02, 2014 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had high expectations of the conventional sort going into motherhood (I bought books with titles like "How to Teach Your Baby to Read" and "Give Your Child a Superlative Mind") and tried to coerce my oldest son to do things that he adamantly, stoutly, absolutely refused to do (Sag sun conjunct Pluto; Cap moon trine Taurus ASC conjunct Saturn.)

It just became obvious that we couldn't mold him without cutting away some of his essential nature and creating a counterproductive bitterness that might sour his entire life. Sooo...we had to try a bunch of different approaches and also respect his right to a veto, or we were getting nowhere. This is how his Latin lessons in kindergarten went by the wayside. LOL

I emphasize him, because he's the one who forced us to reconsider our parenting style...completely. And then we saw the upside of a more lax approach, saw families that did flourish with more freedom. At this point I think it's not a matter of better or worse but qualitative differences in people's lives. Happiness can be attained a number of ways, and to me, that's the main objective of life. I mean deep happiness that comes from living in tune with who you are.

Some rules that do need to be followed, some coercion that has to be applied for their own sake. "No pain, no gain" is a pretty good axiom. But we tend to reserve that for basic rules around the house, manners, hygiene, etc., and then encouraging them with bigger goals that they set for themselves, while being flexible.

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Padre35
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posted January 02, 2014 07:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Thanks Padre. So you'll still have some structure and discipline.

The most common style I have encountered is no structure and basically no discipline. The Dolphin Dad model depends on the child's happiness as a gauge of success. I find it a tad too lax.


Oh my no, that won't work very well.

The child should be happy doing well at whatever they put their hands and mind to doing.

The "dolphin" model relies on what a immature brain will find pleasant, not what it requires to succeed in the world at whatever one is doing.

Getting up at 6 am is not pleasant, reading Milton is not always pleasant, working out is not always pleasant, studying at 10 pm on a Friday when ones friends are out and about is not pleasant.

Yet, life requires such things

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted January 02, 2014 07:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just to clarify, I grew up with this, and I absolutely detested it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBMBVpsuwo

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12muddy
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posted January 02, 2014 08:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12muddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd agree that your Panda style seems to be best. Supportive yet firm but not too overbearing, which may cause resentments.

My parents' style is a mix of high expectation, too much whacking and little support/guidance - "throw her to the wolves, if she lives, she lives". – Wolf parents lol.

They didn't fail that badly coz I turn out to be not too bad <scratch head> but I don't live up to their expectations - so they failed at that.

They did give me opportunities n chances, I'm grateful for those.

Personally if the time comes, I’ll choose a style where I have expectations, I’ll give plenty of rewards, support and will see to their emotional needs n happiness. Discipline is a must but I won't be very heavy-handed.

Seems like my husband will play Tiger dad – relentlessly firm – “live under my roof, follow my rules” kind of person. Although I believe that imposing too many and too strict rules would hinder the development of the kid's personal identity.

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12muddy
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posted January 02, 2014 08:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12muddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Padre35:

For me the key is to have structure and discipline but also to allow creativity to flourish.

Then it would become structured creativity.


Yeah, basically I want to be able to parent my kids in this way.

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Padre35
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posted January 02, 2014 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 12muddy:
Yeah, basically I want to be able to parent my kids in this way.

Yep, I think the toughest thing is to realize creativity is absolutely required today

The sort of "worked there 40 yrs and got a pension" is passe', to not mentor in creativity is to line up ones child for failure now

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PixieJane
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posted January 02, 2014 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My style is authoritative (not to be confused with authoritarian). Granny was that way with me.

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Faith
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posted January 02, 2014 11:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Window shopping over at wikipedia's parenting styles page, I found this:

quote:
Historic developmental model
Also called the Child as Apprentice model. As a child's independent capacities emerge, opportunities are continuously presented at an age appropriate level. The child gains self-worth simultaneous to the emergence of various competencies in an ever-growing number of essential venues, as adulthood is approached. From the initial highly dependent relationship with parents, high levels of independence are attained seamlessly while special skills and abilities of the child have emerged in a manner relevant to adult vocational choices and life interests.

I like that...my concern is that parents would dictate too much and not listen enough.

The definitions for parenting styles sort of match people I know, but there are endless variations on each theme. And when I look at so many "successful" people.. so many of them seem to have missed the mark, for all their striving, awards, and fame.

I just finished a book by one of the foremost gastroenterologists in the world. His wife was dying of stomach cancer and the book chronicles how he grappled with her need to try alternative medicine to keep her hope alive. He fed her doughnuts, bagels, white pasta, and lots of coffee throughout the book. Mind boggling.

I also love vegan advocate John Robbins, son of the co-founder of Baskin Robbins, who gave up his inheritance to live in the backwoods and write books on food ethics. He talks about raising his son in this pristine environment of total love with his wife. Regardless, I look at videos of his son and I'm alarmed at how frail he is. As if the diet theories are entirely wrong or being misapplied after all.

The list goes on and on of people who are ostensible "successes" who can be viewed as failures just by looking at them from another angle.

Or you have successful people who are tormented because they had wolf parents and never recovered. Beethoven.

Meanwhile there are kids who just did their own thing, and by being granted a nice mix of freedom and resources, propelled themselves along in the path of their choosing, and attained what is commonly perceived as success as well. E.O. Wilson comes to mind.

So...if success isn't always success, and both regimentation and "dolphin parenting" can massively backfire...what's left? I just figure there's room for improvement in how we listen to and honor children. With that in mind I admit to being a huge fan of John Taylor Gatto (author of "Weapons of Mass Instruction"), and I love John Holt (founder of the notorious "unschooling" movement) as well. But the devil's in the details, and without familiarity with these approaches, one would assume they are just negligence in disguise...which is wrong. Basically most alternative education books that I've read harp on attentiveness and respect above all things.

Just in case I haven't annoyed everyone by posting this huge message that no one will read anyway, I will lengthen it even more by including this brilliant Alan Watts video:

2 minute comment on education: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4

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PixieJane
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posted January 03, 2014 02:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
Just in case I haven't annoyed everyone by posting this huge message that no one will read anyway, I will lengthen it even more by including this brilliant Alan Watts video

That seems to transcend this thread entirely (though I see how one went from parenting & upbringing to there), but I LOVED that!

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12muddy
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posted January 03, 2014 04:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12muddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks Faith After watching the vid you posted, I've been watching some of those Alan Watts vids. I don't understand everything, but I guess eventually I will lol (very optimistic here)

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted January 03, 2014 06:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been criticized for spoiling my kids outlandishly and using rewards as a tool for accomplishment. But in my case, it has worked!

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mockingbird
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posted January 03, 2014 10:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mockingbird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your style seems a good one, YTA, and about what we do - though we can't spoil our children quite so lavishly.

(While my husband is bringing home enough for me to stay home with our children - and that's saying something in my area, as you know - we're also living in a quasi-inherited house and are a good deal more frugal than most of our neighbors.)

You also alluded to something else that I think is important: Kids are different.
My eldest needs a stronger hand (a Taurus Sun with a Gemini Moon/Venus/Mars Stellium in the 11th, a Leo Asc, and an Aries Merc, if anyone's interested). "Argument" is her middle name. Her bull-headedness and verbal fire mixed with acuity will serve her well if we can teach her some d*mn humility.
But she's like a raptor - always testing the fences.

My middle (a Taurus Sun, Pisces Moon + (er...I forgot) Stellium, Saggie Asc) melts into a puddle of blech with anything much more than encouragement and gentle reprimand. She loves to bake and create and cuddle, but can be dogged if she's pointed in the direction of something interesting and given the space to explore it. She's just a pliable, happy joy. If anything, we're going to have to teach her to stand up for herself and assert her will when it matters.

Our youngest - oy.
She's still young, but already clearly possessing a dogged determinism, a soft heart, and (for her age) an uncommonly analytical, ordered mind.
*thinks for a second*
Cancer Sun, Pisces Moon, Virgo Asc, Gem Merc.
For now, she requires only slight reprimand.

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It lets me know not to take them seriously.
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Violets
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posted January 03, 2014 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Violets     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hm. We only have one, but I can easily identify with your situation, Mockingbird.

Particularly with your first Taurus that you spoke of (we have a Taurus Sun with Aries stellium and Cancer AC here).

We also live in a fairly expensive area, and my husband has to work his soul-sucking job so that I can stay at home and we can enjoy reasonable comfort.

I would say that I'm more of a "Malcolm In the Middle" mom.

But really...
I don't push my son too hard (he's only two and a half, and sort of like Dennis the Menace on steroids), because he's sensitive in spite of his stubbornness and temper (yes, I know all toddlers are like this, but...I don't think these characteristics are going anywhere anytime soon).

I teach him the things that he's interested in, and don't push him to learn the things that he's not. He knows the alphabet, shapes, colors, counting, and to some extent reading (I think through memorization). It's hard to mix paints with him or teach him about music because he throws things when he's excited or frustrated. But I give it a shot. I want him to have as much knowledge as he can, without pushing him to the point of insecurity.

As a Pisces, it's hard for me to enforce discipline, but I know that he needs structure so I do my best.

We don't have any "expectations" of him in the sense that we're trying to plan out his life.
If he's interested in college, that would be great. If he wants to go to trade school, that's fine as well.
If, like his father and many other relatives, he's smart enough to go through a little or no schooling and still end up with a job that he's happy with, that's also great.

If he wants to play music like his dad and uncle, that's also great. If he wants to be an artist like my mom and father in-law, also cool.

I just teach him the best that I can, insist that he shares his toys but am very protective when other kids are mean, and try to coax him into letting me brush his teeth without feeling like I've traumatized him.

If he wants video games or junk food, though...he'll be buying them with his own allowance money that he worked for.

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Faith
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posted January 03, 2014 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mockingbird!!!!

Happy New Year! So happy to see you again!

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Faith
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posted January 03, 2014 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@PJ & 12muddy

Glad you liked it!

quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
I've been criticized for spoiling my kids outlandishly and using rewards as a tool for accomplishment. But in my case, it has worked!

Bribery

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aquaguy91
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posted January 03, 2014 11:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think spankings are too often overlooked.

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Faith
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posted January 03, 2014 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^ Overlooked by Child Protective Services or overlooked as a way to shape children?

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aquaguy91
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posted January 03, 2014 11:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A way to shape children.

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Faith
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posted January 03, 2014 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I mean this as a compliment, I'm willing to bet you will not spank your children much, if at all.

Unless they're Leos. Then your opposing sun will take its vengeance.

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aquaguy91
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posted January 03, 2014 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
I mean this as a compliment, I'm willing to bet you will not spank your children much, if at all.

Unless they're Leos. Then your opposing sun will take its vengeance.


I was spanked as a kid and it didn't kill me . I will spank my kids if I have them. disclaimer: there is a marked difference between a beating and a spanking.

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