posted January 28, 2014 04:05 AM            

A few of my work colleauges and me has a little discussion about our personal lives tonight. Keep in mind that we all come from various different racial, religious and cultural backgrounds and as such, we hold different views and different opinions when it comes to personal matters. So inbetween our converstion, the topic of relationships came up and we went onto dicussing the nitty bits of our relationships. During our conversation, one of my colleauges who happens to be a Suni Muslim, brought up a personal belief of his in which he highlighted that "being in constant romantic lust with your wife is wrong." Being a Muslim myself (I follow Sufism,) I was kind of offended by his remark but decided to give him the benifit of the doubt to explain his views. And what followed after that was a tirade of sexist remarks and plain simple nonsense coming from this guy. Suffice to say, I ended the conversation and have decided to talk with my other colleauge only for the duration of the night.

In my personal opnion, people of faith get too wrapped up upon focusing on the "purity" of their relationships rather than focusing on the essential needs of their partners. Love and lust are not the same thing yes but in a romantic relationship, they certainly work side by side. Lust for one's partner is NOT a sin! It works side by side with your spiritual love for them and sex and lust is just one of many channels through which you communicate that love.

My wife and I are an inter-religious, inter-racial couple. She and I are bi-racial. She is Catholic and I am Muslim . I respect her beliefs as I do my own and we both value our personal faith. HOWEVER, I am not blind to the fact that she has needs and wants that need satisfying as I do as well and THERE IS NO SHAME IN THAT!

Having said that, I am not going to deny the fact that there are times when things get a bit... Difficult for us in trying to maintain that balance between spiritual connection and personal needs .

For example: The following piece was written by my wife for our university's Lifestyle news column, highlighting an example of possible diffculties that might arise in a modern interfaith relationships.

WARNING: As funny as the article is, it is explicit and doesn't holds back when it comes to sexual themes and erotisism (The Scorpio / Libraness is strong with her .) I am biting the bullet and posting this since it highlights the main point of this topic perfectly. I have censored out a things from the article that IMO get into a deeper personal matter that both she I have dealt with and am not comfortable with discussing it on this forum right now:

quote:

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Confessions of a Ramadan Widow.

I love my husband. I have loved him ever since the day I laid my eyes upon him and it’s those attempts burning longing desire to have him capsulated and cuddled (molested) into submission that has tested the limits of my patience and self control. Soon enough, I will need all the patience and control I can muster since my husband is about to abandon the warm and soft caresses of his wife's skin for a month long meditation period that involves starving the living hell out of himself and avoiding all of life's pleasantries.


Now before you ask as to what I am doing married to a masochist, let me explain myself. See my husband is a Muslim and a very good hearted one at that. His devotion to the principle foundations of his faith has seen him at odds with the more extremist oddities in his community; - Section Omitted because of sensitive material -


There are times where his faith and my own personal interests lock swords; Particularly when I am interested in exploring the pinwheel of the ancient art of Kama Sutra and he is busy praying and doesn't wants to be disturbed. While these little nuances are painful hindrances in my self-interests, they are brief and do not occupy a lot of his time and soon enough, my husband is back in my arms where he belongs. But with every delectable treat comes the annoying possibility of overindulgence and addiction and my self-control is tested every year during the holy month of Ramadan.


Ramadan is a sacred time period for all Muslims. Muslims above the age of 14 are expected to part ways with life's extravagance and pleasures and fast from sun-rise till sun-set each and every day for a month. So my husband will devote his time thinking and remembering the blessings he has on an empty stomach while I suffer from a heavy withdrawn syndrome since I don't get a chance to have my morning nookie session. No morning half-asleep cuddles, no good-morning kisses, no morning sex; Just off he goes praying while I lay in our bed with pouting. The withdrawal syndrome stays with me throughout the entire day. Usually after a good morning period of lovemaking, I am usually as giddy as that guy from the Viagra commercials; Skipping and dancing my way to work eager to start a brand new day. During Ramadan, I would be lucky to call upon the strength to get myself out of bed let alone face a busy day at the hospital. And all those little things that were so much a part of my daily canoodling sessions suddenly disappear; Like I can't look forward to having lunch together with my Adonis since he is forbidden to eat or drink anything and that only fuels my irritation and turns me into a grumpy guss. Not only does this month takes its toll on me, it also tests the patience with my co-workers who undoubtedly try to limit their conversations about their amazing sexual episodes around my moody self in order to reduce the chance of getting into a rageaholic confrontation.


One would think that this month would end up promoting a lot of early inter-racial divorces with Muslims but every cloud has a silver lining. The fasting session only lasts till sunset and after when my husband breaks his fast and finishes up with his evening prayers, he is all mine for the picking; Well fed and well rested. It’s true what they say about absence making the heart grow fonder for the time spent apart only enhances my desire to do unspeakable things to that teasing imp.


In closing I would just like to make a personal pact with Allah; While my husband is obligated to remember you from sunrise till sunset; At night I own him body and soul. No hard feelings ok?

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As informative as the article is, I can tell you without a doubt that I probably suffer during this month moreso than her (No food, no water, no sexy time with wife = VERY unhappy Xodian.) Having said that, I am not blind to her wants and needs and always make up for neglecting her needs during the month of Ramadan in a big way by the end of the month . Last year, I got her 30 Roses (fort he 30 days I neglected her needs) and pretty much took the day off from work and planned up a huge romantic day for two.

posted January 28, 2014 05:10 AM            

It should always be held in the Highest Honour, as it is a Sacred Union.

posted January 28, 2014 11:34 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Xodian:
See, I don't necessarily agree with that. I do agree with the fact that there are times where love and physical intimacy are interconnected through a spiritual medium and that it allows you the reach heights on spiritual connectivity that you can't experience through any other means.

Other times, a good f**k is just a good f**k , and has little if no connection to spirituality; And that is perfectly fine! Its a need that shouldn't be overlooked nor should people hold antagonistic views on it.

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But isn't this basically what Padre was saying in AG's thread, that casual sex is perfectly fine, as long as you don't expect it to be something else? And you and Odette jumped all over him for being "sexist". Which he might well be, but that certainly wasn't.

posted January 28, 2014 11:58 AM            

quote:

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See, I don't necessarily agree with that. I do agree with the fact that there are times where love and physical intimacy are interconnected through a spiritual medium and that it allows you the reach heights on spiritual connectivity that you can't experience through any other means.
Other times, a good f**k is just a good f**k , and has little if no connection to spirituality; And that is perfectly fine! Its a need that shouldn't be overlooked nor should people hold antagonistic views on it.

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I.just.LOVE.you.

I completely agree.

posted January 28, 2014 12:09 PM            

quote:

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But isn't this basically what Padre was saying in AG's thread, that casual sex is perfectly fine, as long as you don't expect it to be something else? And you and Odette jumped all over him for being "sexist". Which he might well be, but that certainly wasn't.

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No. This is not "basically" what Padre was saying.

Padre very openly says that he thinks casual sex brings much sexual satisfaction to men who can, according to him, be with a new woman every night and then.. as he put it "kick her out the door"---- while on the other hand it brings only misery to women who lose their value and are looked down upon if they engage in casual sex.

posted January 28, 2014 02:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
No. This is not "basically" what Padre was saying.

Padre very openly says that he thinks casual sex brings much sexual satisfaction to men who can, according to him, be with a new woman every night and then.. as he put it "kick her out the door"---- while on the other hand it brings only misery to women who lose their value and are looked down upon if they engage in casual sex.

This perspective is indeed sexist and there is no "common sense" involved in it.
That's not to say that it isn't still prevalent in some parts of this world.
But I live in the Western world and my views are liberal and not conservative ... and of course I have multiple reasons to criticise conservative and oppressive ideology.

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Biology is oppressive and sexist. The world is oppressive and sexist. You can believe whatever egalitarian ******** you want, Odette. Everyone is equal and nobody loses because you want to live in such a world. You keep telling people such as Pixie they "must be really young" to believe as they do, but I think you're probably younger than either of us. Didn't you say at one point you aren't having relationships anymore? Could it be so you can actively play pretend?

posted January 28, 2014 02:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by page one:
Biology is oppressive and sexist. The world is oppressive and sexist. You can believe whatever egalitarian ******** you want, Odette. Everyone is equal and nobody loses because you want to live in such a world. You keep telling people such as Pixie they "must be really young" to believe as they do, but I think you're probably younger than either of us. Didn't you say at one point you aren't having relationships anymore? Could it be so you can actively play pretend?

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posted January 28, 2014 02:22 PM            

Re: Biology -- Perhaps you need to retake the class.
When I read 'biology is sexist'.. I may as well be reading 'astrology is purple'. It makes just as much sense.

posted January 28, 2014 06:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
I.just.LOVE.you.

I completely agree.

Your wife is such a talented writer. That was totally hilarious and sweet - but also very real and down-to-earth and the same time. I loved reading it! You guys make me smile. I'm so glad you found each other <3

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D'awwww! I hearts you too .

Really, your views are a perfect reflection of how times have changed and that the modern woman doesn't needs to be (and shouldn't!) defined by some 14th century imposed role on her.

Don't ever change that .

quote:

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Originally posted by page one:
But isn't this basically what Padre was saying in AG's thread, that casual sex is perfectly fine, as long as you don't expect it to be something else? And you and Odette jumped all over him for being "sexist". Which he might well be, but that certainly wasn't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
No. This is not "basically" what Padre was saying.

Padre very openly says that he thinks casual sex brings much sexual satisfaction to men who can, according to him, be with a new woman every night and then.. as he put it "kick her out the door"---- while on the other hand it brings only misery to women who lose their value and are looked down upon if they engage in casual sex.

This perspective is indeed sexist and there is no "common sense" involved in it.
That's not to say that it isn't still prevalent in some parts of this world.
But I live in the Western world and my views are liberal and not conservative ... and of course I have multiple reasons to criticise conservative and oppressive ideology.

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Not to mention that he followed his post up with this (and I quote: )

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
Cheap Sex is highly highly overrated, just be 100% that is what you want, it will save you a tonne of bitterness on down the road

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posted January 28, 2014 06:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Xodian:
Other times, a good f**k is just a good f**k , and has little if no connection to spirituality

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I haven't read the other thread, it's too many pages and I don't have enough interest in it (I did read the first that started it and I have no idea what she's thinking or consciously wanting to happen or conflicting desires with anything close to certainty so I'm pretty much staying out of it) but I thought you might find an experience of mine interesting.

As part of an unschooling project to learn about various things I took part in an extended Pascha observation of the Russian Orthodox church, over a month before actual Pascha (Easter) and going a week after. There was fasting but the rules changed as it went along so that on certain days there were only specific restrictions while on other days nothing but water was allowed. Some members expressed surprise that I was able to get through it all because they never saw an American do it on the first try (and they also knew I wasn't Russian Orthodox though they hoped to convert me).

And then it got to the point where Jesus ritually died and I believe that's where the fast got very intense to represent death. (I recall a ritual where we carried some representation of Christ to take to the tomb.) The intense fasting mixed with standing through the entire service which on Pascha was nearly all night and in that night of deprivation and chanting I remember how the icons seemed to come alive through the incense that somehow seemed intoxicating. I saw people reverently touch the robes of the priest as he passed (the belief that what the robes representing to even cure things like cancer) and I understood their belief, it was a magical night, the entire experience seemed shamanic to me and I was in some very sacred space mentally, not of belief but of letting the world go and being surrounded by all the energy of those around me (at one point when "Christ is Risen" we even started kissing each other, I exchanged cheek kisses with countless people including complete strangers and didn't feel the least bit awkward about it).

And then, to represent Christ (spring?) had returned we were led to a huge room connected to the church (not sure if it was officially part of the church or not) that was filled with every delicious food, this was intended as a joyous celebration, and with it was all sorts of alcohol that the Russians and Russian Americans even gave to children, including me (17 at the time, and I told them about the Bible Belt dry county I was raised in that considered alcohol a vice that defiled the temple of the body at best and they told me that was absurd when Jesus turned water into wine) and the sudden delicious food after that fast was intoxicating all by itself...I could FEEL the rebirth of the god (and if you wanted to define that, the return of Spring, as the resurrection of Christ then I had no problem with it) and with it the bounty of life, I appreciated food in a way that was truly sacred and appreciative. And the vodka and other spirits I drank were especially intense for me given all the fasting I'd been doing (and lack of sleep having been up all night chanting!), and just one more way to celebrate the return of the god/sun/Son.

And then coming out of the bathroom a drunken boy a year older met me, kissed me, I returned the kiss, he pushed me back in (it wasn't forceful) and closed the door again, and for the very first and last time in my life I had drunken sex in a bathroom with a boy I barely even knew...possibly on consecrated ground. And that was holy to me then, too, and he laughed when I said, "Voistinu Voskrese" ("Indeed, he is risen" and had been chanted so many times the night leading up to the feast). I've always wondered if he confessed that to his priest later.

Thing was there was no love, other than the love I felt for all people and life at that moment, there was absolutely zero romance or even consideration of marriage, for both of us it was quick bathroom sex and yet, at least for me, it was all sacred and celebratory, and though I never saw him again (and have no interest in doing so) I wish him well to this day and appreciate the few minutes we had together which were as sacred and holy to me as they were erotic (that is, no regrets).

Ironically, I never got to do the Great Rite of Wicca in the literal sense as I've wanted to do at least once in my life, which would be a mix of sex and spirituality but almost certainly not with any lover. If it works as I'd hoped it would then it would transcend it completely, to become all lovers and the sacred act of life, creation, and rebirth, of which we all are apart of whether we know it or not. I'm technically Ignostic but if I were to become religious then Wicca is the most likely one for me to embrace.

posted January 28, 2014 06:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
Re: Pixie.. That was a very stupid comment to make. As I said I am not ageist. Consider it a brain fart

Re: Biology -- Perhaps you need to retake the class.
When I read 'biology is sexist'.. I may as well be reading 'astrology is purple'. It makes just as much sense.

Re: Egalitarianism... That's your personal perspective. Many wouldn't share it. I'm not sure why your reply seems to insinuate that I am the only person here with egalitarian views.. or that we are all apparently a little "crazy" ... lol
I don't insinuate conservative people are crazy. I just think their views are very outdated and don't belong in this century

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The problem isn't "egalitarianism", it's utopianism, and your stupid harangues in its name. It's ALL "personal perspective". I don't know how much any of it is anything you've actually seen yourself, though.

So, in what biology class do they tell you men really do get pregnant? This whole "argument" of yours is beyond stupid.

posted January 28, 2014 06:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I hope what I shared isn't offensive, it's not meant to be, but sharing an experience that I thought might be in the spirit of and contribute to this thread.

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Offcourse not , and I don't expect the discussion to be limited to just one belief system. Infact, the counter-argument I presented in this thread about sex just being sex totally goes against an important tenant of my belief system (i.e. Sufism) which states that love and spirituality are indistinguishable and that the act of love is the pathway of the divine.

Sting was even inspired by this belief system to write a song on it :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3lWwBslWqg

(One of my fav. songs BTW.)

HOWEVER, I also believe that my belief system is hardly the prevalent viewpoint for many people of this world nor does it include the viewpoint of those who might not accept the idea of spiritual connections at all.

How about Atheists for instance? To insinuate that every sexual encounter has a deeper spiritual meaning behind it is to say that Atheists don't experience the FULL POTENTIAL of what sex entitles to spiritualists; And I believe that this is a load of bull.

posted January 28, 2014 06:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Xodian:

"Cheap Sex is highly highly overrated, just be 100% that is what you want, it will save you a tonne of bitterness on down the road".

And that is something that didn't go well with Odette and me. If two adults agree to have sex with no attachments then that is perfectly fine and its not something that should be judged as a negative thing. In fact, it shouldn't be judged at all!

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Ha, so that's it. He's judging casual sex as cheap and overrated. Well, God forbid someone should advise you to know what you're getting yourself into, because if you don't you can get burnt. There is something very strange going on here that has nothing to do with that quote.

posted January 28, 2014 06:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by page one:
Ha, so that's it. He's judging casual sex as cheap and overrated. Well, God forbid someone should advise you to know what you're getting yourself into, because if you don't you can get burnt. There is something very strange going on here that has nothing to do with that quote.

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No you are right, there IS something strange going on here and it and I believe has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with self issues.

As I see it, those who try to THUMP down on casual sexual encounters with a person "high horse" mentality have a very personal PREACHY streak that originates from some self-perpetuated personal issues and try to impose their "Waaah! I got burnt and now this is bad for everyone!" bull on every person they encounter because it was a situation that didn't work out for them.

In short, its personal issues is what it is and that has little to do with the OBJECTIVE disposition of an argument or giving someone an objective outlook on THEIR relationships.

If it didn't work out for you, that's just fine. DON'T impose your bull on everyone else's freedom. Don't generalize it. Just say that this is a situation that didn't work for me for this and this reason and then end the argument.

posted January 28, 2014 07:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Xodian:
No you are right, there IS something strange going on here and it and I believe has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with self issues.

As I see it, those who try to THUMP down on casual sexual encounters with a person "high horse" mentality have a very personal PREACHY streak that originates from some self-perpetuated personal issues and try to impose their "Waaah! I got burnt and now this is bad for everyone!" bull on every person they encounter because it was a situation that didn't work out for them.

In short, its personal issues is what it is and that has little to do with the OBJECTIVE disposition of an argument or giving someone an objective outlook on THEIR relationships.

If it didn't work out for you, that's just fine. DON'T impose your bull on everyone else's freedom. Don't generalize it. Just say that this is a situation that didn't work for me for this and this reason and then end the argument.

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Now I'm convinced it's a problem. He only gave advice, AG or anyone else could take it or not. But both your and Odette's responses have been WAAY oversensitive. It's as if you're afraid of being judged, and THAT'S bleeding into the argument now, that and everything that's played out over various threads in Sweet Peas. I'm perfectly familiar with the usual spiels of Padre, AG, Odette and you, and yes, Xodian, you're completely reacting to this one quote!

Not that casual sex has anything to do with AG's situation, really. It isn't REALLY a question of casual sex, there's some emotional involvement here, so yeah, make sure of what you want.

posted January 28, 2014 07:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by page one:
Now I'm convinced it's a problem. He only gave advice, AG or anyone else could take it or not. But both your and Odette's responses have been WAAY oversensitive. It's as if you're afraid of being judged, and THAT'S bleeding into the argument now, that and everything that's played out over various threads in Sweet Peas. I'm perfectly familiar with the usual spiels of Padre, AG, Odette and you, and yes, Xodian, you're completely reacting to this one quote!

Not that casual sex has anything to do with AG's situation, really. It isn't REALLY a question of casual sex, there's some emotional involvement here, so yeah, make sure of what you want.

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If his PREACHY ways were just limited to one thread, it wouldn't have been such an issue and to tell you the truth, both me and Odette have been VERY patient with him and quite a few others here on this board for a VERY long time; We usually just either ignored him his GENERALIZED arguments with NO (I repeat, ABSOLUTELY NO) objectivity with them whatsoever, or just brushed it off as a casual remark.

HOWEVER, there is just so much bull that you can take and when that bull starts spilling over to threads where the argument in question has NOTHING to do with generalized PERSONAL perspectives then its time to put a stop to it.

posted January 28, 2014 07:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by page one:
Now I'm convinced it's a problem. He only gave advice, AG or anyone else could take it or not. But both your and Odette's responses have been WAAY oversensitive. It's as if you're afraid of being judged, and THAT'S bleeding into the argument now, that and everything that's played out over various threads in Sweet Peas. I'm perfectly familiar with the usual spiels of Padre, AG, Odette and you, and yes, Xodian, you're completely reacting to this one quote!

Not that casual sex has anything to do with AG's situation, really. It isn't REALLY a question of casual sex, there's some emotional involvement here, so yeah, make sure of what you want.

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posted January 28, 2014 07:39 PM            

I just wanted to point that out to you.

Xodian -

quote:

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DON'T impose your bull on everyone else's freedom. Don't generalize it. Just say that this is a situation that didn't work for me for this and this reason and then end the argument.

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I could not have said that better. That's the exact the problem. The "know-it-all" and preachy attitude.

Page one -

Then I guess 90% of people now in their 20s/30s, living in central urban areas in the Western World - are all living in utopia... because they are all having casual sex before marriage.

posted January 28, 2014 07:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
I think Xodian wants to win points with the majority on this forum, I think that's what it all it boils down to. If you think about it his outrage at me and Padre for having more conservative views on sex doesn't make any logical sense. He is "supposedly" a devout Muslim and a married man, so why in the h*ll would he have a problem with people upholding the values he is supposed to cherish? Islam is a very "sexually repressed" and "misogynistic" religion, so how can he really be a devout follower of it if he is all about feminism and wanting women to be promiscuous? It just doesn't add up to me... This is why I am done with organized religion , there's too much hypocrisy and picking and choosing which beliefs to follow while still clinging to the notion that their holy books are infallible. I identify myself as a Christian and hold onto a lot of the values of Christianity but I don't get involved in the church or rituals, it's too much bs for me to handle. [/B]

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Wow... Just wow...

Let me guess... All of this originates from your infallible "common sense" right? Seriously...

So when you aren't generalizing women based on your ISOLATED encounters, you are generalizing a person's belief system for them. But since you brought up the ideology of Islamic values, let me tell you that this is a religion that was founded on the basis to give women open and guaranteed rights. Women in Islam have the God given right to be educated, to own property, to own their own businesses, to lead a household as they see fit, etc. Hell in Islam a woman isn't even supposed to take on her husband's last name and the husband has NO RIGHT to impose his belief system on her either.

All of this however has been either completely ignored by conservative Islamic communities or has been reworded to suite their own purposes.

Maybe it didn't dawn onto your "common sense" self that my belief system and my negative views on backwater social conservatives stems from my own encounters with conservatives in my community. Hence why I stay the hell away from them and have HUGE issues with anyone who is STUPID enough to make generalized sexist comments in this day and age.

So yes, much like you, I have an issue with the conservative elements within my own community.

posted January 28, 2014 07:44 PM            

Btw.. I cannot believe you just asked me in what biology class they would tell you that men get pregnant.
laughing.my.a**.off.

Do you COMPREHEND the difference between political and social equality - and one's biological body?
Do I really need to explain this step by step to you?

What in the world does pregnancy have to do with this?
There is this thing called: the pill.. and this other thing called: a condom.
You may have heard of them O_O

posted January 28, 2014 08:46 PM            

quote:

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People have the right to do what they want but others also have the right to have opinions on other peoples actions

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Preaching that "one" option is best because that is the option you personally decided to take.. is not the same as having "an opinion" regarding another person's behaviour.
It is trying to indoctrinate the other person that your way is the only way and the best way.

quote:

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risks and dangers involved including STDs,unwanted pregnancies etc.

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Please explain how in the world someone would get an STD or get pregnant or end up in any other unwanted or upsetting situation - purely as a result of having casual sex?

The consequences you mention are a result of people being irresponsible and failing to use protection appropriately and also failing to choose safe/non-toxic sexual partners.

There are PLENTY of mentally and physically healthy people out there who would be perfectly safe as sexual partners and who one can explore their sexuality with.
It is not like there is a shortage of people in the world who are *safe* to have sex with.

In as much as you have the option to avoid "certain" people as friends or as acquaintances if they are aggressive/violent/physically or psychologically threatening and abusive ... you can just as well avoid potential sexual partners who would have such a negative impact on your life.