posted August 23, 2015 09:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
That is what I like about you though, when you answer something you answer it usually in depth, you put your heart into it and give it 100%. Naturally this means you can't answer everything, that would be too draining. I did not know your moon in virgo was in the 12th. I get easily drained myself and need a lot of alone time to recharge. It makes so much sense that your moon is in virgo in the 12th; it has to be very similar to my moon in pisces opposite Sun in virgo in some key ways and that tendency to give a lot, feel drained and disappear into recharge mode.

I feel these are the aspects that explain the religion thing for me: I do have Sun and Mercury in the 9th house intercepted. Mercury is retro and my Sun squares Vesta in gemini and Neptune in Sag. It would make sense that my spirituality would be very unique and offbeat and that the norm dictated by my culture in that area would clash with me and lead to me questioning it a lot and that I would end up with someone with similar inclination since mercury is in my 9th but rules my 7th.

I have sun-horus-moira opposite Moon forming a grandcross with Neptune-Morpheus-Lachesis-Pyramus-AC opposite Vesta-DC.

I feel making people feel that they have to follow a certain religion to be promised salvation and not go to hell or using guilt to manipulate others to feel they owe god something or must follow a certain path to be loved or else is oppressive and fear based and yes a type of trauma bonding in a way. I also see that people NEED this structure to feel safe and get that sense of belongingness and community and see why people find it beneficial to be a part of this type of indoctrination/religion.

Everyone is were they need to be I suppose but if your instincts are calling you to evolve and break away from something its a good thing to have the courage to do so and you and I are examples of that!

There are a lot of reasons why I left religion, I have never liked Abraham's story of god asking him to kill his only son to prove his faith for starters, I have a big problem with that story. Also religion made me feel that I couldn't be into astrology/mediation/yoga etc and that I had to choose either or giving me an ultimatum and I don't like an ideology to decide for me what is right or wrong, I like to decide that for myself and follow my instincts.

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Wow!!
Our reasons for wanting no part of religion are nearly identical! The guilt and manipulation your speaking of...I see it just like that and I feel it's cruel. But I don't believe god is cruel, so I don't believe they are serving the true God. I don't want to serve a manmade hateful god. God is love and anyone following him and who has his spirit is embodying love not hate, cruelty, manipulation and guilt all those things are fear based and fear is what destroys love.
Fear is the emotion that opposes love and makes ppl unable to freely love others and themselves. It destoys the soul, not uplifts it! Why would an organization following god lead with fear?
The story of Abraham is one that had always made me question if the "God" in the bible was the true god...I just don't think a god of love would require that. It sounds to much like an immature man looking for someone to stroke his ego, or a evil spirit wanting to be glorified as a god. But definitely not the real "God"!

posted August 24, 2015 01:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
Wow!!
Our reasons for wanting no part of religion are nearly identical! The guilt and manipulation your speaking of...I see it just like that and I feel it's cruel. But I don't believe god is cruel, so I don't believe they are serving the true God. I don't want to serve a manmade hateful god. God is love and anyone following him and who has his spirit is embodying love not hate, cruelty, manipulation and guilt all those things are fear based and fear is what destroys love.
Fear is the emotion that opposes love and makes ppl unable to freely love others and themselves. It destoys the soul, not uplifts it! Why would an organization following god lead with fear?
The story of Abraham is one that had always made me question if the "God" in the bible was the true god...I just don't think a god of love would require that. It sounds to much like an immature man looking for someone to stroke his ego, or a evil spirit wanting to be glorified as a god. But definitely not the real "God"!

The fact that religion tries to say you can't do meditation, yoga and astrology always bothered me to.
1st) Meditation helps you connect to higher vibrations or spirituality.
2nd) Yoga does the same and clears out negative energy from our physical bodies.
3rd) Astrology is a map that had been given to us by God to be used to understand the path we are to follow in this incarnation.
Why would religion want to take away our personal ways to clear ourselves from negative energy and further connect to god? To me the answer is, religion isn't fully looking out to help us find god, it's looking out for it's own interest first even if those interest hinder our spiritual growth. Why? To make money, to keep us reliant on them and feeling if we don't have a big place to go and find god through them we will be lost. They don't want to empower us and help us become independent leaders for ourselves, they want us to always feel we need to be spoon fed by them.
Religion to me is like kindergarten spirituality. Once you learn how to find god inside your heart and then realize churches are big empty buildings until WE bring god to them, that's when your free and no longer need religion to hold your hand as you cross the street. Your big enough to do it alone.
Religion doesn't want ppl to get there...they want them to remain dependent and that's holding ppl back and abusive! That's not god, thats a man made organization full of egos not hearts!!
I think you and I have come to same conclusions based on our very similar thinking, our conscious, our hearts ability to see love in it's highest form and our similar experiences and backgrounds. It's truly amazing how we see this so much alike!
I'm on my phone sorry for typos!

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I honestly could have not have said it better, even though I think like you, the way you expressed and put it is brilliant and even expanded my view on it further.

I feel you are a leader in the area of spirituality, when you talk about spirituality you really shine, you are truly in your element .

posted August 24, 2015 11:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I honestly could have not have said it better, even though I think like you, the way you expressed and put it is brilliant and even expanded my view on it further.

I feel you are a leader in the area of spirituality, when you talk about spirituality you really shine, you are truly in your element .

Impressive you wrote all this over the phone btw.

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Awe....thank you! I love having someone who gets this and feels like I do!! Thank you sooooo much!
I really am truly amazed we have been put off by all the same things. We noticed all the same inconsistencies and didn't just accept it as our own issue.
To doubt religions teachings or to not fully understand what they teach is seen as OUR issue according to them, like we need to have more faith! Lol...that's just another mind game they play with us.
Religion wants us to think when we question or have doubts about the inconsistencies they teach it's a lacking on our part. Truth is if we were allowed to question them and they were expected to teach these things in a way that made sense, the correct way god intended for us to learn about him and his spirit, they would be forced to give us information that empowered us and built us up. Religion isn't going to do that!
Doing that would make religion a tool(which is what god meant religion to be) meant to help us.
No...they want to be a god within their own minds. So that we go worship at their feet or else we are lost and have no god at all without them.

I find it so amusing and disturbing that the very organizations that killed Christ, the organizations that Christ condemned and called hypocrites...decided after his death to pick him up as one of their own, their leader, their follower!
Wow!! Christ hated them!! He preferred the company of "sinners" because the sinners were real, honest, humble and open to learning the truth about god, to learn about the simplicity of god...religion makes god convoluted and confusing, way to hard to understand.
Jesus made god something tangible so all could find god within themselves. Religion hated that because they don't want ppl to find god within themselves, that would put them out of business.

Another thing I find amusing and disturbing is that nobody catches on as they read the bible that they are part of the organizations Jesus was calling hypocrites. They don't see that the organization picked up Jesus as their mascot after they killed him? How can you miss that?
I guess because religion has manipulated their minds, brainwashed them into fearing for their own lives if they doubt what they are being taught. Reality....Jesus wanted nothing to do with the religion, so religion killed him. But the ppl loved him, so religion picked up his followers as their own by manipulating the scriptures at the Council of Nicaea- 325 AD
The pope hand picked what was holy and what was not to fit their needs and make manipulating us easier. Then they called it the holy scriptures, the Bible.

If anyone is going to pay, it will be these false religions who have led so many ppl away from god to serve their own interest.
That being said, because of their ability to prevent ppl from finding god within themselves they have accomplished their goals....the majority of ppl need religion. It appears to be their only life line to god!
So, it's actually a good place for most ppl to go to. Without most would be lost, they've been train to not think for themselves. Ppl try to do what's right because they go to church and are told that's what they should do.
It's sad, but religion has a monopoly on spirituality because they have been able to stop ppl from believing they could do it on their own. That's exactly as they wanted it to be.

The few who have risen above the manipulation see the truth, but we are very few! But good energy when focused is so much more powerful, it only takes a few having it to override the negativity.
Those of us with our independent good energy that comes from god and found inside ourselves are fought against by religion. They don't want to exposed.
The ppl in the organizations fear us to because of the brainwashing and being terrified to see what we see, if they open their eyes and see it...they believe they are going to die for it. God will destroy them.
It all goes back to religion teaching them to question what they are taught is a sign of a lack of faith, lack of faith means god will punish you or worse cut off by god. It's a mind trap to keep ppl stuck in a bad place out of fear. Abusers use these same tactics to keep their victims trapped, even when given the opportunity to get out they stay out of fear of what's on the outside. Our brains naturally fear the unknown more than we fear what we have become accustom to even if what we know and feel accustom to is hurting us.

All I can say is someone was a brilliant mastermind to put this all together! They knew human downfalls and the mind traps that would get US TO FEAR breaking free from THEIR control. Crazy!!
It's like a skilled chess player who's always ten steps ahead but uses that skill to break ppl down efficiently and makes it easy to control and manipulate others. Bravo to those brilliant evil ppl or possibly evil spirits that used ppl to mastermind their plans, they did an awesome job! Sadly it worked very well, we bought it and we fell right into their hands.

posted August 24, 2015 04:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Soltze:
What do you think on Echo opposite Mars?
Can I interpret as reflecting aggressive energy back to its source?

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posted August 24, 2015 04:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
Awe....thank you! I love having someone who gets this and feels like I do!! Thank you sooooo much!
I really am truly amazed we have been put off by all the same things. We noticed all the same inconsistencies and didn't just accept it as our own issue.
To doubt religions teachings or to not fully understand what they teach is seen as OUR issue according to them, like we need to have more faith! Lol...that's just another mind game they play with us.
Religion wants us to think when we question or have doubts about the inconsistencies they teach it's a lacking on our part. Truth is if we were allowed to question them and they were expected to teach these things in a way that made sense, the correct way god intended for us to learn about him and his spirit, they would be forced to give us information that empowered us and built us up. Religion isn't going to do that!
Doing that would make religion a tool(which is what god meant religion to be) meant to help us.
No...they want to be a god within their own minds. So that we go worship at their feet or else we are lost and have no god at all without them.

I find it so amusing and disturbing that the very organizations that killed Christ, the organizations that Christ condemned and called hypocrites...decided after his death to pick him up as one of their own, their leader, their follower!
Wow!! Christ hated them!! He preferred the company of "sinners" because the sinners were real, honest, humble and open to learning the truth about god, to learn about the simplicity of god...religion makes god convoluted and confusing, way to hard to understand.
Jesus made god something tangible so all could find god within themselves. Religion hated that because they don't want ppl to find god within themselves, that would put them out of business.

Another thing I find amusing and disturbing is that nobody catches on as they read the bible that they are part of the organizations Jesus was calling hypocrites. They don't see that the organization picked up Jesus as their mascot after they killed him? How can you miss that?
I guess because religion has manipulated their minds, brainwashed them into fearing for their own lives if they doubt what they are being taught. Reality....Jesus wanted nothing to do with the religion, so religion killed him. But the ppl loved him, so religion picked up his followers as their own by manipulating the scriptures at the Council of Nicaea- 325 AD
The pope hand picked what was holy and what was not to fit their needs and make manipulating us easier. Then they called it the holy scriptures, the Bible.

If anyone is going to pay, it will be these false religions who have led so many ppl away from god to serve their own interest.
That being said, because of their ability to prevent ppl from finding god within themselves they have accomplished their goals....the majority of ppl need religion. It appears to be their only life line to god!
So, it's actually a good place for most ppl to go to. Without most would be lost, they've been train to not think for themselves. Ppl try to do what's right because they go to church and are told that's what they should do.
It's sad, but religion has a monopoly on spirituality because they have been able to stop ppl from believing they could do it on their own. That's exactly as they wanted it to be.

The few who have risen above the manipulation see the truth, but we are very few! But good energy when focused is so much more powerful, it only takes a few having it to override the negativity.
Those of us with our independent good energy that comes from god and found inside ourselves are fought against by religion. They don't want to exposed.
The ppl in the organizations fear us to because of the brainwashing and being terrified to see what we see, if they open their eyes and see it...they believe they are going to die for it. God will destroy them.
It all goes back to religion teaching them to question what they are taught is a sign of a lack of faith, lack of faith means god will punish you or worse cut off by god. It's a mind trap to keep ppl stuck in a bad place out of fear. Abusers use these same tactics to keep their victims trapped, even when given the opportunity to get out they stay out of fear of what's on the outside. Our brains naturally fear the unknown more than we fear what we have become accustom to even if what we know and feel accustom to is hurting us.

All I can say is someone was a brilliant mastermind to put this all together! They knew human downfalls and the mind traps that would get US TO FEAR breaking free from THEIR control. Crazy!!
It's like a skilled chess player who's always ten steps ahead but uses that skill to break ppl down efficiently and makes it easy to control and manipulate others. Bravo to those brilliant evil ppl or possibly evil spirits that used ppl to mastermind their plans, they did an awesome job! Sadly it worked very well, we bought it and we fell right into their hands.

Ok...I'm done! Il get off my soapbox now! Lol
I really love having someone who understands this stuff to talk to!! Thank you!

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Thank you so much for sharing your views and knowledge with me. YOU are blowing my mind! I love your analysis! Seriously, I am so impressed, I admire you.

Its sad but I had lost interest in Jesus bc religion turned me off so much bc it used him to manipulate me but reading your analysis its helping me separate the two as you are pointing out he didn't even like religion! Crazy.

The mind fu*k indeed started when he was turned into a Mascot for religion, absolutely love that analogy of yours it really puts things into perspective and love how you point out that religion is suppose to be a tool, not this all or nothing thing that leads to dependency, inadequacy or emptiness without it.

You are describing Nessus/Dejanira dynamics but on a macro level involving spirituality. Nessus is using force and intimidation to get Dejanira to belief in him (religion), ignore her instincts and stick around out of fear and dependency. Dejanira has this perception that she or he is nothing without god. Dejanira needs to realize that she is already God and so is each and everyone one of us. We end up looking for God in all the wrong places except in ourselves because if we realize that the power is within us the Nessus-Dejanira spell is broken and you become a force to be reckon with, no longer weak and easy to control.

posted August 24, 2015 04:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Soltze:
[b]What do you think on Echo opposite Mars?
Can I interpret as reflecting aggressive energy back to its source?

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[/B][/QUOTE]

posted August 24, 2015 04:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Soltze:
What do you think on Echo opposite Mars?
Can I interpret as reflecting aggressive energy back to its source?

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Perhaps it would come off as passive aggressive until you figure out how to make the opposition work together...

Like you either explode or do the silent treatment, maybe disappear and hide into a shell.

Or maybe assertive or aggressive people easily intimidate you and you lose your voice around them.

Maybe you have to learn to stand up to bullies and speak up for yourself!

Do you relate to any of that?

posted August 24, 2015 05:05 PM            

WEll said. YES!

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posted August 24, 2015 05:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Perhaps it would come off as passive aggressive until you figure out how to make the opposition work together...

Like you either explode or do the silent treatment, maybe disappear and hide into a shell.

Or maybe assertive or aggressive people easily intimidate you and you lose your voice around them.

Maybe you have to learn to stand up to bullies and speak up for yourself!

Do you relate to any of that?

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Yes, yes and yes! I do give the silence treatment when it's just getting too much.
Sometimes there's no purpose in keep fighting anyway.

Oh, trust me I was the victim of bullies in my childhood but now no one will step on me no more.

posted August 24, 2015 05:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Soltze:
Yes, yes and yes! I do give the silence treatment when it's just getting too much.
Sometimes there's no purpose in keep fighting anyway.

Oh, trust me I was the victim of bullies in my childhood but now no one will step on me no more.

Thank you

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posted August 25, 2015 10:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Thank you so much for sharing your views and knowledge with me. YOU are blowing my mind! I love your analysis! Seriously, I am so impressed, I admire you.

Its sad but I had lost interest in Jesus bc religion turned me off so much bc it used him to manipulate me but reading your analysis its helping me separate the two as you are pointing out he didn't even like religion! Crazy.

The mind fu*k indeed started when he was turned into a Mascot for religion, absolutely love that analogy of yours it really puts things into perspective and love how you point out that religion is suppose to be a tool, not this all or nothing thing that leads to dependency, inadequacy or emptiness without it.

You are describing Nessus/Dejanira dynamics but on a macro level involving spirituality. Nessus is using force and intimidation to get Dejanira to belief in him (religion), ignore her instincts and stick around out of fear and dependency. Dejanira has this perception that she or he is nothing without god. Dejanira needs to realize that she is already God and so is each and everyone one of us. We end up looking for God in all the wrong places except in ourselves because if we realize that the power is within us the Nessus-Dejanira spell is broken and you become a force to be reckon with, no longer weak and easy to control.

What would be the antidote of Nessus-Dejanira? Nessus-Dejanira makes us feel incomplete and like we need something outside of ourselves to feel complete so what asteroid makes us look inside? Maybe chiron takes away and forces us to face our dependencies and false illusions and heal ourselves, look inside and transcend? Maybe chiron helps unlock this other spiritual realm BUT facing our illusions and fears is painful hence why chiron is often associated with pain. Or is it Horus, Isis and Osiris the antidote?

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Wow, I never thought of Nessus/Dejanira in that way but yes it totally fits! I do think Chiron the wounded healer could be a place to find the answer...or maybe Nessus/Dejanira midpoint?
Funny my cancer Nessus sits on my asteroid Church and my Mars. My Dejanira sits on Asteroid Christian and my 12th house unaspected Moon.

posted August 26, 2015 12:16 AM            

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Originally posted by Gabby:

Funny my cancer Nessus sits on my asteroid Church and my Mars. My Dejanira sits on Asteroid Christian and my 12th house unaspected Moon.

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You must be in SOME ways similar to my partner in your dislike for religion. Him and I feel very similar but his dislike goes deeper; he really feels religion is a form of abuse and as you can see I get that but with him is more personal and it turns into hate. He has "bad blood" with religion and a lot of resentment for religion and his family. He still has not forgiven the church or his family for FORCING him to go through with CONFIRMATION even though he did not want to and considered it abusive. His uncle was the most religious out of the whole family and he holds the most resentment towards him and his mother as well for a number of reasons.

His Nessus trines exact Church and he has nessus square dejanira by 2 deg. He has a very deep dislike and hate for religion more so than me, I am more accepting and chill about it even though I disagree with it. He doesn't even like to use the word "spirituality." He believes in the "no self doctrine" though and he believes that "existence springs from the void of nothingness and that life is the universe looking in on itself." He can get very deep but he calls it metaphysics, don't you dare call it spirituality. I feel you and I are more similar though, like with him at some point we kind of go into different directions bc he rejects not just religion but also spirituality which is sad for him. However, Uranus is transiting through his 12th and will be there forever as his 12th is pretty big so maybe there will be a shift at some point.

We would have pretty bad fights but once he cut ties with his mother things started to improve. She would pop up and it would invoke such strong emotions in him and "bad blood" that it will flow over to me and I ended up paying for his negative feelings and resentment for his mother and not wanting to ever forgive her.

It makes sense, he has nessus in CANCER square Dejanira in LIBRA so his nessus in cancer trine church issues would spill over to his committed relationships/marriage bc the square makes it hard for him to know how to handle that nessus energy. As soon as he completely cut ties with his mother and his family our relationship changed drastically for the better. He feels like the victim of his mother, family and religion and nessus won't allow him to forgive and forget and been around those things exacerbates his nessus and agitates him leading to destruction which usually meant screaming and destroying expensive stuff around the house and leaving wholes in the wall. He has to forgive to resolve that karma but he doesn't want to so the next best thing is cutting off his family and religion bc it poisons him and then I become the receiver of that poison. I can't persuade him to forgive with spirituality bc he doesn't like the word or the concept; he associates it too much with religion to get him to separate the two in his mind.

Anyways you don't realize it but you just helped me understand his nessus-dejanira aspect and how it manifests in his chart, like I knew all the issues he has but I hadn't understood it in the context of nessus and dejanira and how it feels for him and how that in turn leads to poor coping skills as nessus can be hard to control. Even though in my mind I would have preferred for him to forgive his family and accept certain things and let go I have to say that he is able to keep his nessus in check well since he cut them all off and is no longer spilling over to me so I guess that is how he has coped with that nessus SQUARE to Dejanira and learn to live with it in a way that is not destructive.

ADD:

posted August 26, 2015 08:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
... It's sad but I had lost interest in Jesus bc religion turned me off so much bc it used him to manipulate me but reading your analysis its helping me separate the two as you are pointing out he didn't even like religion! Crazy.

The mind fu*k indeed started when he was turned into a Mascot for religion....

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Love what you're saying! So true.

posted September 08, 2015 02:23 AM            

She also has Dejanira conjunct Venus which would explain her limitations with self expression socially as I mentioned that at home with her family she has no issues at all but everywhere else she has difficulty expressing herself.

Her ECHO is in PISCES and squares EROS in GEMINI so her Eros is ruled my mercury which rules communication and also rules her saturn. Further her ECHO is ruled by NEPTUNE which squares DEJANIRA!!But Neptune also conjuncts her Northnode so I feel she is meant to overcome this.

In essence I feel her ECHO squaring EROS which is ruled by mercury already hints to issues with self expression. You then add that the ruler of her ECHO squares her Dejanira which conjuncts her Venus and that really stamps the issues with self expression she has specially in connection to the outside world and her social self bc with her family she expresses herself great.

posted September 08, 2015 02:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gabby:
It would mean his fears of being hurt inhibit those planets expression to an extent. When he does express those planets he has reservations of feels vulnerable to being hurt. That's a difficult placement. Of course the tighter the aspect the more the issues created will be seen and felt by the chart holder.

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