posted September 22, 2009 11:50 AM            

It starts to feel to me like a bunch of fisherman sitting on the dock and bragging about their catches, even though there aren't any big fish in sight: "The fish I caught was 27 feet long and it's very, very rare to ever even find a fish that big!" "Oh yeah? Well, my fish is 27 feet long and we were both priests in Atlantis," "Oh yeah? Well, my fish is Johnny Depp, and even though I've never really caught a fish, I'm meant to catch a fish in the next life that is 37.5 feet long!!!"

I wish we would address non yes/no questions more often--like "WHICH dynamics are at play in this relationship and HOW do they manifest themselves?"

And we can't really know that with strangers we only know from their publicity materials. We can't TOTALLY know it with our friends or in our own synastries, either, but at least we can make a richer discussion.

posted September 22, 2009 12:45 PM            

I agree to the most part. Of course we don`t know what is going on behind closed doors, all we can see is THAT t hey hooked up and HOW LONG they are (at least officially) staying together. But even just knowing these frame dates can be enlightening.

posted September 22, 2009 01:41 PM            

I think Glaucus is right, astrology is a conroversional topic.
There are many theories out there. And if you have read the title closely, you will see that I wrote: "MY take on...". So it`s just my opinion, which I have formed after seeing many synastry charts and I am of course still researching.
NO theory is ever infallable, yet it should be true for a high percentage of cases. If it does not hold true so often, the theory has to be reevaluated and modified.

The discussion has triggered some question in me.

Is it maybe only valid for long lasting romantic relationships?
Maybe parens and chidlren fall into another category, as neither of them consciously "chooses" their partner.
Yet I am convinced in most cases there will be connections of that sort.
I would actually be very interested to see your and your father`s charts, Lucia, if you want to share them.

Yet, even in the case of parents-child relationships or in friendships or in romantic relationships, sometimes partner do not get each other or a part of the other one?s personality, no matter that there may be attraction or sympathy present.
It`s like they either can`t see the other one in parts too clearly or these parts somehow let themselves be pretty "uninfluenced", they will not feel a strong emotional reaction when those traits become visible, but can maybe maintain a rather detached and maybe more objective distance.

It is the case with my best friend. Neither of her planets aspects my Sun-Mercury-conjunction, and it is clearly the part of my personality she accepts, but doesn`t understand. It`s like this is MY OWN SPACE, and she has got no entry pass for this; most of the times she doesn`t even see it.
On other levels our friendship works superbly and we definitely trigger strong responses in each other, it`s just that one part she doesnīt get, and thus I can`t express it too clearly in my friendship with her, or if I do, there will be no response or I have to explain my behaviour verbally.

I think the same happens if in a synastry of a romantic relationship a planet is not aspected; it will have its own life without really "meshing" or "merging" with the other person`s personality.
If this is true for all core planets, Sun, Moon and ASC, there will be big parts of the personality that just donīt evoke strong responses.
Of cousre there can be relationships despite that.
But I have found t hat most people, especially if they ask questions about their relationships on LL, want the All-or-nothing deal, a deep and thorough mutual understanding and closeness.
It is my conviction, that this is shown by strong and multiple linkages to core planets.
Of course we can argue about what these "core planets" actually might be.

Another thing I noted, is that often in romantic relationship, and ESPECIALLY between parents and children, there will be strong Saturn and Pluto-aspects. So maybe those should be taken into account, too.

Now, short affairs seem to work in different ways as they are mostly shortlived and "grow-experiences".
I definitely think that the Vertex-connections, and probably also Venus and Mars and even Uranus will be pretty much emphasiszed here (including the progressed charts).

But per definitionem they seldom last longer than for either the excitement to wear off or the transformation to take place.
It is certainly different than a relationship based on dominant Sun-Moon-ASC connections.

posted September 22, 2009 02:05 PM            

But I also think that what I proposed here could be a good guideline for a START To the interpretation.
And it could lead to a more systematic approach, which I feel is lacking, if we just add up one aspect interpretation to the other.
We have to understand HOW each person "ticks" and how their personalitie`s touch each other and mesh, or even have to see if there are areas of personality where the personalitie`s do not mesh at all.
That should not be considered a judgement, it is just an observation.
There may be people who welcome that space in a relationship, where the partner does NOT have an entrypass to, some place to withdraw into themselves.

I also want to avoid getting lost in details and draw the conclusion, that X and Y are soulmates and destined to married (in my opinion there does not exist something like a destiny to marriage btw), just because they have a Jupiter-Neptune trine and Boda conjunct Fiducia.

What I am trying to find is just a system, that differentiates between those aspects that will be in the centre, hot spots, and those which will be more in the background.

Also, let`s say we have two couples. Couple A has a Moon-Moon-conjunction, couple B has a Mercury-Mercury-conjunction (for neither of them moon or Mercury rules any angle or 5th or 8th house, and they do not fall in these houses either).
Of course we have to describe what these aspects mean, and we probably will describe it pretty well, if we say that couple A shares an emotional bond, or maybe not even that, but that they are very similiar emotionally, and thus understand the other one`s moods.
Couple B will probably share an intellectual bond, or at least their communication style will be pretty similiar.
Leaving out any other considerations (which we of course can`t in a real life case), which one would more likely lead to a romantic relationship?
It of course depends on our definition of "romantic relationship" and what we expect of such, but really the majority of people I have spoken to, made it very clear that both was important for them, but that it is more important in their relationships for them to feel emotionally at home, safe, at ease, to find a comfort zone there.
Of course anyone can make a different decision and say that he does not want any emotional sharing in his relationships, and he would probably not like the Moon-Moon-conjunction.

Another thing I have often pondered upon, and Diana emphasized this point, too, is that most likely we MUST look at the natals to see what everyone wants in a relationship.
Probably we seek out in relationships, what we already have in our natals. It somehow resonates with us.

for example:
A woman has a Venus-Neptune aspect natally. Probably she would be attracted to men, with whom she shares Venus-Neptune or Mars-Neptune aspects in synastry.

If another one has Venus-Saturn, she could even be turned off by the Neptunian aspects.

That would actually explain a lot of onesided attractions, too.

Letī`s say I have Venus-Pluto square and the man of my dreams has Venus-Uranus-conjunction.

Well, this comparision alone tells us, that there could be problems in a relationship, as our needs would be too different, even though at first it could even be an attracting factor. But over the course of the relationship, if there forms one, it could definitely lead to problems. He would spend all his nights on the computer, chatting with his female friends. And I would probably become jealous and demanding of his attention. But the more demanding I would become, the more time he would spend at his computer to escape my tiresome tirades.

(I am not saying that every couple who has that is doomed; NO couple ever is doomed, it just might be more of a challenge to this particular couple to work out a more constructive expression of these energies; and unfortunately, if things get difficult, many couples or even only one partner decideds to break it off and not work it through)

But now let`s say in the synastry there is a Venus-Pluto-conjunction.
It speaks of passion and a very intimate entwinement and getting under each other`s skin.

Now, I, with Venus-Pluto, would be in seventh heaven. EXACTLY what I need, what I want. All that sharing, that passion. And probably it would lead me to be completely compelled by this man, who is the reason that I can feel all this (becuase this situation or aspect is created through our synastry).

But what about him? The poor guy feels that passion, and sharing everything together, too.
But his Venus-Uranus might scream loudly: I can`t breathe.

He probably would be feeling completely locked in, overwhelmed and even suffocated by this intensity, and maybe would reject the one who became the reason for these feelings in the first place.

But again those are just thoughts, I haven`t researched the frequency of shared or repeated natal aspects, that come up in synastry again, so far.

posted September 22, 2009 02:23 PM            

Where i get confused is when you have this scenario, taking venus as an example:
(mixed bag)

she has say:
venus conjunct saturn
venus quincunx neptune
venus quincunx uranus
venus quincunx pluto
mars trine Uranus

and he has:
Venus trine Neptune
Mars opp saturn

synastry:
Venus sextile Uranus
Venus trine Neptune
Venus quincunx Uranus
Venus quincunx neptune

posted September 22, 2009 02:34 PM            

yes, that`s where it gets complicated in real life.

Personally (only my opinion) I think that conjunctions are the aspects that will be most prominent and visible in a person, followed by square and opposition, while the others, trine, sextile and quinkunx, are in the background.

So, in this case I see that their most prominent aspects fit together like key and lock.

She has Venus conjunct Saturn.
He has Mars opposite Saturn.

It means that, just from the comparision of the natals, they have a complimentary sexual or relationship oriented(Venus/Mars) balance, through their mutual aspects to Saturn.

It also means that Saturn aspects would be probably pretty attractive in a synastry to both of them, and that both would appreciate finding such aspects in their synastry.

Is there really no strong Saturn aspect?
How about Saturn aspects to the ASC-DSC-axis, or the ruler of DSC or ASC aspecting Saturn?

EDIT:
I also think there is a (minor) balancing, as both have Venus-Neptune aspects and it appears in the synastry again.

posted September 22, 2009 02:45 PM            

Actually in this example i am using myself because of all my connections to uranus!

so i have
moon/venus cj saturn

he has
AC trine saturn
mars opp saturn

synastry has
my saturn opp his mars
my saturn trine his AC
his saturn Q my AC
and other minor aspects too.

My take, and it's probably wrong - is that my venus - uranus/pluto aspect probably see saws between intense closeness and space.

I do find this fascinating and i absolutely think you have an extremely valid point when it comes to these comparisons.

posted September 22, 2009 03:03 PM            

"synastry has
my saturn opp his mars"
This one would be absolutely significant.
As you have Venus-Saturn and he has Mars-Saturn natally.

An attraction with a Saturnian note.

"My take, and it's probably wrong - is that my venus - uranus/pluto aspect probably see saws between intense closeness and space."
Yes, I would see it this way, too.
WEll human beings are complex. And the simultaneious presence of Uranus and pluto CERTAINLY brings a lot of complexity.
It is probably not easy to find someone who can deal with that in you.
Probably someone with Uranus and Pluto would be best for that,t oo, as he has an innate understanding of these inner tensions (tension as in different expressions and needs; like the need for closeness with the need for space)

"I find your posts so enjoyable cos they really make me think, thank you "
Thank you. And I feel the same.

posted September 22, 2009 03:08 PM            

geez, you just made me realise something. His DC ruler is uranus and 4th ruler is pluto.

Yes, i find it hard to deal with myself with these aspects - it's like i don't know what i really want

Thanks DD.

posted September 22, 2009 03:13 PM            

Of course maybe he only used her as a reason to not have to be king.
I am just kidding.

Oh and NEVER underestimate the DSC-ruler, it is very important, and luckily not dependent on which house system you use.

posted September 22, 2009 03:16 PM            

I guess my only real disagreement is with the attempt to sort relationships into two objective categories, but I guess that only matters with romantic relationships. Because, obviously, we will look at parent-child connections whether they strongly effect us or not.

Dad=very private Taurus, I would feel weird asking to post his chart online even with the DOB taken out...

BUT everything I "feel" in the relationship is reflected in the synastry in a more-then-3 degree orb:
-Moon opp Mars (9)
-Merc conj IC (5)
-Mars conj Venus (between 3 and 4)
-Pluto conj Venus (6)
-MC conjunct Mars (between 3 and 4)
-Neptune conj Pluto (btwn 3 and 4)

We have a Sun-Sun square (btwn 3 and 4), and an exact (0) conjunction between my 7th house Venus and his 8th house NN. His Pluto, Mars, NN fall in my 7th and his Sun in my 5th...my Moon, Saturn, Venus fall in his 8th and my Sun in his 9th.

posted September 22, 2009 03:41 PM            

"BUT everything I "feel" in the relationship is reflected in the synastry in a more-then-3 degree orb:"
I am still skeptical of that and think it probably is being emphasised by other connections, also. But hey it`s your feeling!

"-Mars conj Venus (between 3 and 4)"
Well, I would definitely consider that as valid. If I am talking about the 3 degree orb, I mean that those aspects, if present, will be on the forefront. But that doesn`t mean a 5 degree orb is completely invalid. I guess the intensity becomes weaker though.
And I have seen very often that people will rave about a 7 degree conjunction of Venus and Mars as so beautiful and exciting, and yet ignoring the Moon-Saturn-opposition at 1 degree.
Imo there will be much wishful thinking attached to that, but that is a problem with astrology in general.

"-Pluto conj Venus (6)"
Personally I definitely think that is too wide of orb, especially since Pluto is moving so slowly.
You or your father, depending who is the Venus-person, would have that with all people being born in several years.

Let me give you an example, since Pluto will be transiting my Venus in a few years.

My Venus is on 6 Capricorn; so if that 6 degree orb is valid, then all people born between December 2008 and December 2014 would have this conjunction with me. This is hardly very individual.
It is different for the Pluto person, though, as Venus moves a lot faster.

My Pluto is on 9 Libra, using that 6 degree orb, this would apply to men, whose Venus is from 3 to 15 Libra, which equals 5th october 1974 - 15th october 1974.

Maybe there ARE different orbs valid depending on the movement of the planets. I don`t know. Another thing worthy to research.

-MC conjunct Mars (between 3 and 4)
This is actually also an opposition between IC and Mars and since IC is a lunar point, it could have similiarities to a Moon-Mars aspect.

"-Neptune conj Pluto (btwn 3 and 4)"
Those generational ones I find pretty intriguing between children and their parents.

"and an exact (0) conjunction between my 7th house Venus and his 8th house NN. "
So there is a connection, an EXACT connection between the 7th house and the 8th house, and 7th house equals Venus and 8th house is a pluto house, so you have the emphasis over the houses here.
I put so much emphasis on houses and housrulers, because they change so fast and therefor are the most individual placements.
Even if you met someone who has been born on the same day as your Dad, he probably would not have the same houseplacements or house-rulers.
Of course that can only be done if the birthtime is known.

"His Pluto, Mars, NN fall in my 7th"
Pluto in 7th. Another Venus-Pluto equivalent!

" Moon, Saturn, Venus fall in his 8th and my Sun in his 9th."
Venus in 8th, Yet another Venus-Pluto equivalent. Now you have three, even without the wide orbed conjunction. And if something appears three times, they say, it is a theme.

"I have Pluto-Venus stuff happening with 90% of the men I get involved with romantically."
I sometimes wonder if we inherit certain aspects from our parents or seek out these dominant themes in our relationships.

In your case you have so much Venus-Pluto-connection with your Dad and it reappears in your relationships.
Not saying that you seek your father in relationships, that would be somewhat icky thougth, but maybe something about the energy or athmosphere at home gets translated in the relationships or we feel that resonance, when we encounter similiar aspects as we have experienced them with our parents.

I also have strong Venus-Pluto synastry, usually, but natally I have Venus-Pluto square, my Dad has Venus-Pluto-opposition natally and my Mum has Sun in Scorpio.
And in the synastry with my Dad his Mars exactly conjuncts my Pluto, and his Pluto opposes my Moon exactly.

"ith whom I have insignificant synastry and an exact Venus-Pluto square.)"
Since you have that affinity to Venus-Pluto, I DEFINITELY think, in your case that may be more valid as other sweet aspects may be, like Moon - Venus or something like that.

posted September 22, 2009 04:28 PM            

Here are a few observations:

Something I've noticed about 7th house cusp/Dcs rulers recently:
Where that house ruler sits might say a lot about how that person is in relationships... and if you activate that house and that planet, it would be similar to a 7th house connection.
I do think angles are important, but I also agree that their rulers are important too.

Also, I think that if someone has formation in their chart, a t-square or a grand cross or the like, and another's planet(s) conjunct or oppose those key planets *closely*, then you'd have something similar to a Saturn bond, IMO. Granted, it's no guarantee (well, what is lol), but the energies generated by that will act like a glue and fuse people together.
My own t-square goes crazy when the apex planet is activated (Jupiter) and I can't get enough of the person... I know Jupiter is nice and benevolent, but there's still a bond, and it's as though my Jupiter is relieved to find a planetary best friend

And what about other things, such as houses in synastry? One thing I've noticed for myself, is all my longest term relationships as well as closest friends have put their suns or at least even stelliums into the top half of my chart. I know with my ex-husband we had the same dynamic.

And I wonder about missing elements in someone's chart.... for instance, what if a person has no fire in their chart and you activate their fire houses? Or water houses? I would think this would really count.

posted September 22, 2009 08:20 PM            

What sign's your Jupiter in, Lara?

The guy I'm seeing right now has a t-square with Venus at the apex and it conjuncts my Jupiter very closely. I sometimes wonder if that's what's got us feeling so close so quickly (well, and the moon-moon conjunction helps too).

Sometimes it's interesting in synastry when you see a lot of recurring themes:

-Moon-moon conjunction
-Sun/4th house (his sun in my 10th)
-Moon/Chiron conjunction DW
-Chiron/Chiron DW
-Sun/Moon midpoint (Cancer) conjunct anti-Vertex

posted September 22, 2009 08:21 PM            

My man also has his moon cj my sun.

I don't like anyone aspecting it from aquarius though, now a personal planet right on mars/neptune.

posted September 22, 2009 08:28 PM            

Jupiter isn't considered the great benefic for nothing.

I'd rather have Jupiter instead of Saturn in a t-square.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 22, 2009 08:47 PM            

I agree it can be hard to tell which aspects we "feel"--I most blow my own mind with astrology when I look at a chart and use it to accurately predict how someone will BEHAVE by looking at aspects and imagining how they might play out.

MVM, re: the nonstop blabbing Mercury-Mercury couple...I think lots of times so-called "good" or "harmonious" aspects play out in a way that isn't necessarily so easy, and vice-versa. I have Mercury square Mercury and DW Sun-Mercury square with someone, and our communication is actually very sweet.

The way aspects play out doesn't necessarily fit a value judgement ("Sun-Moon trine is great!")...but it DOES show up("Sun-Moon trine means the Moon Person has an emotional understanding of the Sun person's personality.") Nonstop senseless yapping seems like an unsurprising way for a Merc conjunction to play out between two people who have fairly un-blocked abilities to express their natal Mercury. I have this sometimes with other Leo Mercuries, especially if we also have a Sun-Merc conjunction...we blab and blab about our favorite topic. Which, well, you can guess what THAT is.

It's BETTER with my Scorpio friend and all the squares...we have to work hard to find a place to meet. And we either talk about very deep things, or we communicate on the vibe level, or we get whimsical and childlike and just have crazy, silly fun (activating his Jupiter trine my Sun-Mercury and my Jupiter trine his Sun-Mercury.)