posted November 24, 2014 10:56 AM            

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Originally posted by Geeky:
What's going on within myself is pretty clear. Some people here already know this about me, but you may not.

I am polyamorous, so the amount of love I can feel is not limited. I'm also pansexual, but that's another topic for another thread. *lol* So basically, my capacity to love people doesn't run out like a ketchup bottle. Similarly, a mother doesn't run out of love after her first child... she loves all of her children equally.

However, my husband is monogamous and thus, I married into monogamy. When I decided to marry him (he had to ask a few times), I decided he is worth it to me because he is a good partner. Looking back on that decision, I probably shouldn't have married him. Not because I can't be in a monogamous relationship (I can), but because he doesn't accept that part of me. He basically pretends it doesn't exist.

I do wish he would accept my capacity to love more than just him, but he doesn't. And like I said, it's not because he doesn't take care of my sexual needs (because he does). It's because it's who I am and I shouldn't have to be ashamed of that with the person I choose to live with for the rest of my life.

Yes, I chose the path and I accepted a monogamous relationship, but I shouldn't have to pretend the other part of me doesn't exist anymore just to soothe my husband's insecurity or his ego. If I say, "I will never cheat on you," that should be enough.

Does that make sense? It's like a part of my identity he ignores because he can't love that or understand it.

Aside from that, the dynamic between us is very comfortable. I always feel "at home" with him because he accepts all of the other goofy things about me. The only real problem we have in our relationship stems from how we communicate romance. His idea of romance does not = mine.

My ex husband was a jerk, and he messed up in many ways, but we did romance the same. Full body massages, written love letters, texts to each other all day, shared baths, gifts, long walks and long talks... we were very mushy romantics. We could stay up all night talking about our dreams.

My current husband... oh dear. He wrote the word "birthday" on a piece of cardboard for my birthday and presented it with a big ol' childish grin. He was like, "Get it? It's a birthday card!" He also thinks he is cute when he licks his finger and sticks it in my ear or pins me down to fart on me.

That's not what I am used to, so we are having an adjustment period while I figure out how he communicates his romantic feelings. Because he really isn't good at communicating, he just acts silly.

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posted November 24, 2014 11:33 AM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
No, is not emotional immaturity and no offense here either but I don't think you are wired to understand this one and is ok; we are all different.

I am not interested in killing that part of me; I feel it makes me a better person even though it comes with its challenges.

You need structure and security and you need things to be clear cut but some people are comfortable with a little uncertainty and chaos and don't know how to shut their heart off for the sake of confirming to society's expectations and its limited views on love.

For me ending my feelings for my ex who I have always felt in love with is like murdering him and I could never do that. I also love my husband a lot in a different way and could never hurt him; the things I have done and do for him proof this time and again; I am extremely loyal to him. It is what it is.

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Are you in love with your current partner? Like IN LOVE? Longing for him, wanting him, although he's there all the time, does he give you butterflies? Are you addicted to his smell, his body, his voice? coupled with the fact that making love to other people, their smell, their bodies seems strange,indifferent and even repulsive to you? Do you feel that he's extraordinary, that growing and living with him is an adventure? that you just can't wait to discover more about him, with him, as time goes by? Do you feel you can't believe he exists and you don't want to loose any second of his existence, of your time together? Are you repulsed by the thought of him feeling you're in love with someone else?

Because if you had been in love, you would have understood what I meant.

I was talking about LOVE and being IN LOVE with one's partner, not partnerships based on a compromise.

Don't tell me about being "wired" or not, I just explained I know what polyamorous feels like.

No one says you shouldn't love you ex husband, but that's different than romantic/erotic love. Because if the one you're really in love with is your ex husband, and not your current partner, to me it means you live in lie and hypocrisy, how else is this called? How does this work? Is your current partner in love with his ex too? How would you like that? Does he know and agree you're actually in love with someone else?

I'm just being blunt here, since there's this debate. This is how I feel and think about living with someone but being in love with someone else - romantically and erotically, so I hope you don't get offended, I'm raising these questions in general, not to you specifically.

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posted November 24, 2014 11:47 AM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:

You need structure and security and you need things to be clear cut but some people are comfortable with a little uncertainty and chaos and don't know how to shut their heart off for the sake of confirming to society's expectations and its limited views on love.

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"uncertainty" and "chaos"...please, give me a break! you meant duplicity and compromise.

Society has nothing to do with it; on the contrary, society accepts all kinds of dysfunctional behaviors, thank god. How else would we find out how dysfunctional they are? When the consequences finally kick in?

posted November 24, 2014 12:05 PM            

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:

I believe the opposite. Possessive pair-bonding is a product of evolutionary adaptation where a procreating mother HAD to bond with a protective partner to ensure survival of the offspring. We don't live -- or have to love -- in that B&W world anymore.

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True romantic love is exclusive. I wasn't talking about marriage or being in a relationship, which seems to be disconnected from true romantic love for some people. However others still believe in it and try to keep it pure, sometimes with impressive sacrifices. Hence the uncompromising attitude.

I have no problem with other people living in compromise as long as they know what they do and what it really is and don't try to "romanticize" it and give it fancy names. It's like spraying some Nina Ricci deodorant on a pile of **** .

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posted November 24, 2014 12:25 PM            

You don't get it; I love them in different ways and each way is very valuable. How I love my ex is not more valuable than how I love my husband and how I love my husband is not more valuable than how I love my ex and I am not living a lie bec I am honest to myself and my husband does make me happy in many ways including in ways my ex was not able to make me happy and it goes the other way around as well.

There are species that are monogamous and non-monogamous. The human species mostly resembles a pattern of serial monogamy at this time but some people are not wired to be monogamous and that is why polyamorous arrangements exists. In fact there are many cultures still today and more so not in the distant past who engaged or engage in polygamy and it works for them and the person married to the multiple partners does feel "in love" or that he loves all his partners in a romantic manner.

Polyandry is also part of our history and now is been expressed with polyamorous arrangements.

posted November 24, 2014 12:26 PM            

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Are you in love with your current partner? Like IN LOVE? Longing for him, wanting him, although he's there all the time, does he give you butterflies? Are you addicted to his smell, his body, his voice? coupled with the fact that making love to other people, their smell, their bodies seems strange,indifferent and even repulsive to you? Do you feel that he's extraordinary, that growing and living with him is an adventure? that you just can't wait to discover more about him, with him, as time goes by? Do you feel you can't believe he exists and you don't want to loose any second of his existence, of your time together? Are you repulsed by the thought of him feeling you're in love with someone else?

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Congratulations, you just described my dream relationship

posted November 24, 2014 12:37 PM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
[B]Its always very obvious that something stings for you in this matter and needs to be healed but you don't really think it does, this topic is personal for you.

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True. I hate hypocrisy and duplicity.

And desperate housewives fantasies

Nope. It's not gonna heal, it's gonna stay an open wound: I'll always hate hypocrisy and duplicity.

quote:

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You don't get it; I love them in different ways and each way is very valuable. How I love my ex is not more valuable than how I love my husband and how I love my husband is not more valuable than how I love my ex and I am not living a lie bec I am honest to myself and my husband does make me happy in many ways including in ways my ex was not able to make me happy and it goes the other way around as well.

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It looks like they both satisfy specific functions/needs for you. How utilitaristic! Do they know about the different ways you love them or does your husband believe you love only him? Since you mentioned "honest" in your post.

quote:

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There are species that are monogamous and non-monogamous. The human species mostly resembles a pattern of serial monogamy at this time but some people are not wired to be monogamous and that is why polyamorous arrangements exists. In fact there are many cultures still today and more so not in the distant past who engaged or engage in polygamy and it works for them and the person married to the multiple partners does feel "in love" or that he loves all his partners in a romantic manner.

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Good. Then why aren't you honest with yourself and your husband and live as you are inside: a polyamorous lifestyle? Society permits it, there are others as well, why perpetuating the lie and illusion of monogamy? Honest question here! Thanks.

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What I care about the most is love, companionship, and loyalty; that the person I am with honors our commitment; I don't think is unnatural to have feelings for multiple people.

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posted November 24, 2014 12:49 PM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
The other person is seen with absolute clarity, as if under a magnifier, their flaws, imperfections and all, but is nevertheless seen as perfect. Absolutely and utterly perfect.

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You moved me deeply with this, to tears, Vajra, thanks, how you managed to describe it

posted November 24, 2014 12:55 PM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Originally posted by hypatia238:
[B]Its always very obvious that something stings for you in this matter and needs to be healed but you don't really think it does, this topic is personal for you.

True. I hate hypocrisy and duplicity.

And desperate housewives fantasies

Nope. It's not gonna heal, it's gonna stay an open wound: I'll always hate hypocrisy and duplicity.

quote:You don't get it; I love them in different ways and each way is very valuable. How I love my ex is not more valuable than how I love my husband and how I love my husband is not more valuable than how I love my ex and I am not living a lie bec I am honest to myself and my husband does make me happy in many ways including in ways my ex was not able to make me happy and it goes the other way around as well.

It looks like they both satisfy specific functions/needs for you. How utilitaristic! Do they know about the different ways you love them or does your husband believe you love only him? Since you mentioned "honest" in your post.

quote:There are species that are monogamous and non-monogamous. The human species mostly resembles a pattern of serial monogamy at this time but some people are not wired to be monogamous and that is why polyamorous arrangements exists. In fact there are many cultures still today and more so not in the distant past who engaged or engage in polygamy and it works for them and the person married to the multiple partners does feel "in love" or that he loves all his partners in a romantic manner.

Good. Then why aren't you honest with yourself and your husband and live as you are inside: a polyamorous lifestyle? Society permits it, there are others as well, why perpetuating the lie and illusion of monogamy? Honest question here! Thanks.

quote: What I care about the most is love, companionship, and loyalty; that the person I am with honors our commitment; I don't think is unnatural to have feelings for multiple people.

Who cares about outside loyalty if the inside is another story? Wouldn't this be just pretense, playing mommy and daddy?

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I am not a hypocrite, I have asked him for an open relationship numerous times and he declined and at some point asked me to stop asking, he does know I have feelings for my ex but he also knows I would not leave him for him and that I love him.

posted November 24, 2014 01:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I am not a hypocrite, I have asked him for an open relationship numerous times and he declined and at some point asked me to stop asking, he does know I have feelings for my ex but he also knows I would not leave him for him and that I love him.

I am loyal on the inside and outside; having feelings for others as well does not mean that I dont love them or that I am disloyal. You are talking about fidelity not loyalty IMO. Loyalty to me means been there for the other person no matter what and always loving them.

I swear the more "kind" people appear to be to the whole world the more of a dark, ugly and judgmental side they have hidden from themselves and others; I am realizing this lately. I would say that is a kind of duplicity.

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I'm not hiding this "dark, ugly and judgmental side" if that's what you mean and if this is how you perceive me. You have to understand how weird it is for someone "wired" as I am, to see someone coming here - or elsewhere - and promote polyamory when that someone lives in a monogamous relationship, probably with a partner who doesn't know about their polyamorous feelings, as it usually happens. In your case, you say your husband knows about it, so it's a compromise on both sides.

Who am I to condemn other people's compromises? With this, you are right.

Pretending I don't see it for what it is would be hypocrisy as well.

As far as I'm concerned, in this matter, one plus one makes two, I agree with you, I'm uncompromising about this-maybe it's a flaw, in this case, I honestly don't care: you promote polyamory? you are polyamorous? be a model, be true to yourself and live like this! I see no reason in being in a monogamous relationship if you don't believe in it - I call this hypocrisy and I don't apologize for that. Maybe others have different definitions of the word.

You have to understand that there are millions of people who live in a monogamous relationship because they believe in it, because they love, and coming here and lecturing them about not being "open" enough or properly "wired" or lecturing them about humans not being monogamous by nature - wth?? then why are you married? nobody forces you to be married nowadays - is more than annoying.

posted November 24, 2014 03:25 PM            

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Originally posted by Koniucha:
I can barely deal with one man, let alone two or more! :P

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Best quote of the day!

I'll stick around this forum (here comes the Leo Drama Queen: if y'all can put up with me for a while longer), there are still three things I haven't seen here yet:

- two twinflames in a relationship
- a polyamorous in an actual polyamorous relationship
- a pansexual sleeping with everyone in their path

posted November 24, 2014 04:00 PM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

- two twinflames in a relationship

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posted November 24, 2014 05:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
I'm not hiding this "dark, ugly and judgmental side" if that's what you mean and if this is how you perceive me. You have to understand how weird it is for someone "wired" as I am, to see someone coming here - or elsewhere - and promote polyamory when that someone lives in a monogamous relationship, probably with a partner who doesn't know about their polyamorous feelings, as it usually happens. In your case, you say your husband knows about it, so it's a compromise on both sides.

Who am I to condemn other people's compromises? With this, you are right.

Pretending I don't see it for what it is would be hypocrisy as well.

As far as I'm concerned, in this matter, one plus one makes two, I agree with you, I'm uncompromising about this-maybe it's a flaw, in this case, I honestly don't care: you promote polyamory? you are polyamorous? be a model, be true to yourself and live like this! I see no reason in being in a monogamous relationship if you don't believe in it - I call this hypocrisy and I don't apologize for that. Maybe others have different definitions of the word.

You have to understand that there are millions of people who live in a monogamous relationship because they believe in it, because they love, and coming here and lecturing them about not being "open" enough or properly "wired" or lecturing them about humans not being monogamous by nature - wth?? then why are you married? nobody forces you to be married nowadays - is more than annoying.

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I dont know why you use the word compromise like is a bad thing; everyone in a relationship compromises.

All I am doing is defending people's right to be in the kind of relationship they want to be in without having to feel judged because of it and all I am doing is defending my self from been judged for having feelings for more than one person; I shouldn't be demonized because of it, I shouldn't be interrogated because of it or be treated like you are treating me. I met me ex first and it did not work out; I am not the type to stop having feelings for someone If I truly felt for them and if I had a rich history with them; I can't just kill off those types of feelings.

And bc I got my heart broken and it did not work out it does not mean that I should stay miserable and single forever; how dare I try to be happy with someone else even though I still have feelings for my ex, its called facing reality and making the most of things.

Who are you to judge me or anyone and to interrogate me or question me. I did tell my husband once that I had feelings for my ex and he asked if I would leave him if he were to return to me and I said no bc I wouldn't and that was that. I am not a hypocrite, I am just not going to break someone's heart bc I want to experiment with a polyamorous arrangement. I asked him many times to give this a shot and he declined; that doesn't make me a hypocrite.

The fact is that I am not that attached to polyamorous arrangements more so just curious about it but I do defend the right for people to be curious about one even though they are in a monogamous relationship without been harshly judged because of it or for deciding to stay in a monogamous relationship if their partner declines experimenting with that lifestyle; sticking around is loyalty and is what marriage is about whether is mono or poly and that does not make me a hypocrite nor should I be judged for it.

So your solution is to break up with my husband over this?! bc you somehow belief that people should never compromise when ALL relationships require this. For example, my dad did not want to marry my mother bec she was a workaholic but in the end decided to compromise, my mom continued to be a workaholic and arrive home late throughout their marriage but he supported her and accepted this was a sacrifice he had to make to be with her.

There is always a compromise, there is not a perfect guy or girl or perfect relationship.

posted November 24, 2014 05:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I swear the more "kind" people appear to be to the whole world the more of a dark, ugly and judgmental side they have hidden from themselves and others; I am realizing this lately. I would say that is a kind of duplicity.

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It sucks, don't it?

I suspect that's a part of the parting gift from tSATURN on my nMOON. Not only have I discovered the errors, hypocrisies, and intolerances in my own thinking, now I'm able to detect it immediately in others.

posted November 24, 2014 07:06 PM            

I hate faerie-tales, by the way. I can't stand the delusion they engender in youth alike. I prefer reality; to know what, why, and how things work. While the universe is my bailiwick, before that, it was human sexuality and psychology. Little surprise it led me to study what we call 'love'.

Lee, what you've described as true love would be what a scientist calls infatuation. (And, if it's lasting, limerence; but I won't jump ahead to that yet.)

It's a legitimate lunacy caused by our bio chemistry going cuckoo for a number of reasons -- most of which have nothing to do with emotional suitability, level of maturity, compatibility or longevity.

While we've created scores of romantic poetry and some of the most passionate art in such a state, we should be thankful it's temporary, as it's very biologically taxing. Hearts and flowers are the symptoms of a brain surging with three chemicals in a unique orchestra of human frenzy: dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin.

I know, I know. Leave it to the Vulcan to be all, 'Actually, the feeling you're describing as love is ... ' but bear with me here. It's not bad information to have.

For most of what you've stated, Lee -- the throes of passionate love -- dopamine is the genuine cause. In fact, my partner and I toyed with it in many ways to explore its role in falling in love. It was fascinating. Dopamine is what stimulates the dependence upon one's romantic interest or object of desire.

At its core, infatuation is the sweetest and craziest drug addiction; a literal chemical dependency. It's the cause of fretful phone calls and dramatic scenes and the stuff of what rom-coms and Shakespeare was made.

That's dopamine. It's also why we crave sex, since it directly increases testosterone in both sexes. Cool, no? There's a reason the old adage is 'sex, drugs, and rock n' roll'. And that we give chocolate on Valentine's.

Norepinephrine is the next in play, which is a close cousin (derivation) of dopamine. It contributes to the 'love sickness' feeling, along with the added trait of such focussed attention we're able to recall the smallest details. That's because our memory is encoding in overdrive.

And last, but hardly least, serotonin -- which gives us the biggest characteristic of all. Obsession.

Ohhh, you can't have infatuation without obsession. Racing thoughts. Constant fantasising. Desperate fears of abandonment. A need to check up on and be near the desired one.

Low levels of serotonin were first hypothesised in conjunction with surges of dopamine and norepinephrine by Helen Fisher, upon doing a brilliant study. What she uncovered was amazing. It's changed our understanding of what we call love, and its effects on the body.

Indeed, SSRIs have been known to decrease the passion or intensity of emotion in the individual for which they're prescribed -- and the relationship, as a result of the decrease.

Okay. So you know the 'chemistry of love' now if you didn't before. But what of longevity? You posit that true love is endless infatuation. That simply isn't so. Our bodies and brains would burn out.

We aren't designed for permanent infatuation.

The best example of that was found in the part of the brain called the caudate nucleus; it's part of the oldest area of the brain -- the so-called 'reptilian' brain; the R-complex. It's what allows us to evaluate rewards, propels motivation, and lavish dedicated attention upon a singular object of acquisition. Infatuation injects it with dopamine, bathing the caudate (specifically, via the ventral tagmental area) in a rush of desire and motivation. It's what drives new lovers to behave so, well, crazy.

That's not what was found in the longer term relationships, however. Activity in the anterior cingulate and the insular cortex dominated the findings -- where attention, emotions, and our working memory interact with each other. Simply put, it 'clarifies' the caudate's activity, and the chemical surges. It helps to process emotions and identify sensations and feeling associated with human relating.

Our body begins to respond differently as a relationship continues. The chemical surges even out as the brain returns to a more normal state and attachment starts to take shape -- or it doesn't, in which case our 'love' was really limerence.

So, not to burst your romantic bubbles, ladies, but love is not really an emotion at all -- scientifically speaking -- but a motivation system designed to elicit or obtain a specific reward: a particular mate.

Nature, on the whole, seems to have allotted about 18 months for us human beings to seal the deal, as that's about how long the honeymoon period lasts, chemically speaking. If we stick it out beyond the 'expiry date', we start to enter the wild and wonderful world of attachment. Which is actually hardly wild at all -- but about security, calm, and longevity.

The brain and body are in a distress state during that 18-month period. Cortisol marks the fight-or-flight chemical profile; the dousing of dopamine and norepinephrine (think, adrenaline) isn't much different. So once we've settled into a relationship, the 'crazy in love' stuff finally falls by the wayside, as a secure attachment is now capable of forming.

Curiously, love addicts have a greater than average need for the 'crazy in love' experience to where they often become 'serial infatuationists', if you will, constantly in search of the next high (honeymoon phase). This usually stems from childhood neglect, or, conversely, failing to achieve certain important milestones during the adolescent relationship which builds independence, security, and self esteem. They seek partners to fill the void they carry as a result of the early wounding.

That's not love, of course, but addiction in the most typical sense. Unfortunately, Hollywood is crack for the love-addicted in our society, perpetuating the unhealthy relationship model. They're led to believe it's 'romantic' when it's truthfully dysfunctional.

So, what's it all mean?

Obsessive, crazy, romantic love is a motivation system designed to obtain a singular reward during a temporary period. We weren't designed to withstand the chemical onslaught for longer than 18-months.

Love, from the healthy, functional perspective, is born of attachment rather than infatuation. It's built upon pragmatic ideals and shared values, rather than possessive fear and threats to abandonment. The partner is not used to fill a void, and each have a healthy and developed sense of self with clear personal boundaries. True intimacy can certainly exist within the context of healthy boundaries, by the way.

Codependency is the ultimate product of a permanent infatuatory state. That's what we call limerence, when the crazy chemistry also perpetuates.

Outside of the love addicts, we also see this behavioural profile in borderline personality and bipolar individuals -- most disorders with an affective component, wild swings, and fears of abandonment.

I think the take-home should be: