posted November 15, 2015 02:51 PM            

For me, lying is sooo much worse. It destroys what was pure and loving between two people. I can handle finding out someone I love slept with another woman because he's away from me and has needs and whatever.

I cannot handle finding out that person purposely lied to me to cover his tracks so that he could carry on with me AND another girl. that kinda thing is just cruel and evil, and I hear about it happening all the time.

posted November 15, 2015 03:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
I see.

But is the nature of the relationship really that flexible enough to allow that sort of communication to take place? i.e; "babes, i am really attracted to someone at work and would like to see where it goes?"

The minute we get into relationships, we learn to mask our impulses;some of us not that successfully in order to avoid hurting our partners(or shaming ourselves).

We want so badly to live up to the ideal that is projected upon us as well as the ideal of the relationship. But at some point we fail.

---

With your first statement it's not about the relationship being "flexible" as it is more about having a conversation. If one person is not fully satisfied being with just the other person or they aren't getting all of their needs met there should be a conversation. When a person forgoes that and decides to cheat to try and meet those needs it shows a lack of respect by not considering the other's perspective on the situation. They are pretty much saying that there would be nothing that could satisfy this need except being with someone else, and to me, that is not only hurtful but selfish.

I would say that you do mask some things in relationships, but if you have a true soul connection all the masks fade away and you are left with a partner that knows all your biggest weaknesses and strengths. There is an ideal relationship that we see, but it's ultimately up to us as individuals to decide how we want to be in relationships and how to conduct ourselves. There is nothing to blame but oneself if you present in a deceptive manner in love. Act out how you feel inside and then you will find a true relationship with no masks

posted November 15, 2015 03:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cappi112:
Yeah, cheating sucks and hurts most people I think.

For me, lying is sooo much worse. It destroys what was pure and loving between two people. I can handle finding out someone I love slept with another woman because he's away from me and has needs and whatever.

I cannot handle finding out that person purposely lied to me to cover his tracks so that he could carry on with me AND another girl. that kinda thing is just cruel and evil, and I hear about it happening all the time.

I think that's maybe my only real fear in life. Finding out someone I have been giving trust to is deceiving me that thoroughly.

---

I agree with you. That was once my fear too. Ironically, I didn't even know it was my fear until it happened. I had given all my love and trust to one person and they expertly lied to me. Not only that but they lied about cheating and their feelings about me. It is a deep wound I received, and it still affects me today. However, it was my toughest karmic relationship and it taught be much needed lessons. I can now be in a healthy relationship with my now SO without worry because we are open and honest. I think honesty is one of the biggest things a relationship needs to be successful.

posted November 15, 2015 03:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mergoatsun:
With your first statement it's not about the relationship being "flexible" as it is more about having a conversation. If one person is not fully satisfied being with just the other person or they aren't getting all of their needs met there should be a conversation. When a person forgoes that and decides to cheat to try and meet those needs it shows a lack of respect by not considering the other's perspective on the situation. They are pretty much saying that there would be nothing that could satisfy this need except being with someone else, and to be that is not only hurtful but selfish.

I would say that you do mask some things in relationships, but if you have a true soul connection all the masks fade away and you are left with a partner that knows all your biggest weaknesses and strengths. There is an ideal relationship that we see, but it's ultimately up to us as individuals to decide how we want to be in relationships and how to conduct ourselves. There is nothing to blame but oneself if you present in a deceptive manner in love. Act out how you feel inside and then you will find a true relationship with no masks

---

Exactly.

Sometimes a person finds it easier to avoid conflict than to tell their partner what they are lacking. Sometimes it's easier to feel good about yourself by accepting the attention of someone else than to do the hard thing and work on your own self worth.

Sometimes a person throws away their life with both hands.

posted November 15, 2015 03:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cappi112:
It's just not black and white. How I feel in this relationship is totally and completely different from how I felt in the last, and the one before that ... So in my opinion, there is no one correct view of love and what love means. There's just not. In the end, I really believe true love is loving someone unconditionally, however that fits into your lives and personalities. It cannot possibly be the same from person to person and we all need to stop trying to define what true love is for everyone else.

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Love that. I agree entirely.

And for me, it's completely beyond the pale as well. I could NEVER do that. And, in part, that's why I'd probably avoid being alone with my ex producing partner for any length of time where long silences could be a feature -- at all costs. Not because I have a need or desire for it now, but I once did, VERY powerfully, and it's amazing how that ol' machinery will kick in with an ex. That's why so many feel awful and ridiculous afterwards, too. Was it worth wrecking your life now because you succumbed to a bit of habit then? In most cases -- no. Frankly, this is for the 'uncharted territory' cases, too.

But I have different advice for men and women, believe it or not, in that spot. Women, I ask to visualise the sex act with the one with whom they'd be cheating -- their 'infidelity partner'. But not the beginning. Not the end, either. Save the 'O' face. No, the middle. I want you to get right to the middle of things; in medias res. No kissing. No feverish making out and passionately tumbling into bed, or the sofa, or clearing things off of the nearest table. (Because -- really? How often has that actually happened in your life? The defence rests.) It's all designed to make us think it's all good in the 'hood; get the blood pumping and the brain buzzing. Lust-motived, desirous emotional cocktail, that one. Just you, him, (likely on top of you, otherwise you're intentionally opting against the passive role -- and that's something we always discuss) and, at this stage of things, he's mostly doin' his thing, running his internal programme that gets him there. You're not so much a part of it anymore, because the 'faerie-tale' portion of the act has already resolved, and now you're committed, or you're not.

My female clients have called that 'cheating' -- to which I have to say, 'ohhh, the irony'. Because that DID happen. He DID kiss them, and hold them, and whisper sexy-sweet nothings, with his actions continuing to express his physical desire for sex. And, sure, I know that. But so does THIS part.

Honestly, as a writer, I know ALL about the clever way we wizardly wordsmiths paint a preamble that ensures that the part of the sex act that's glossed over in our actual sex lives, while played up intensely in dramatic fiction -- is not just palatable between two individuals for which we KNOW we shouldn't be rooting -- but actually, kinda hot. Because passion is hot. Sex is sexy. Romance gets the engines revved.

But infidelity? It's only hot if you're kinky, which belies greater issues anyhow, that require sorting. And, beyond the scope of this.

But every woman will find herself in that stage of the sex act. It's part of it. And, if in my Memento-esque exercise, the only thing she can feel is 'wait, how the hell did this happen?' and some level of disgust -- she knows. This is a very bad idea. She won't actually get any REAL pleasure out of it, because the guilt of the awkward moment that comes with every new partner (even experienced long-term partners will still have these from time to time) and she's feeling anything but joy of being with him -- it's a bad decision. Removing her partner, and the betrayal from the equation ENTIRELY -- it's not good for her, and sure as hell ain't worth doing damage to a loved one.

And, as promised, with men -- it's a bit different. We all can remember the line from Parenthood, right? How it's all a certain way until they come? Yeah. We know it's true, too.

So, men -- they've got to understand that, getting right to 'the action' isn't the awkward stage. She's either going to be painted as his sexy fantasy version (which he's REALLY desiring) or the more realistic, troubled, human version most closely resembling her true self -- for which he may not even be able to get the job done. Like the fact she's risking being the dreaded Other Woman -- and might even be betraying her own partner. She's got BIG expectations for this. And, since he's sneaking off, his cell phone has to be on -- in case his wife calls, or texts, or, God forbid, something about the kids. Because, we're being real here. Real men. Real cheating.

And these guys are extremely visual, and tactile, too. He likes that she's saying things his wife hasn't in years -- even if they haven't been having sex, for years, still he notices it immediately. And she's got a tight little butt, or a huge ghetto-bootay. But not like his wife's formerly tight little butt, which vanished since the baby weight never has. Or the massive knockers which his wife's never had.

(Honestly, a friend of mine, Chad Kultgen did a completely brilliant portrayal of this in his book The Average American Marriage. It's so, so spot on. Just wanted to toss that in there, because I was so impressed.)

So, with the desirable butt, boobs, and dirty talk, he's thinking he can do this -- that he wants this, he needs this. And so, I ask my men to visualise the moment AFTER they're done. Her tight little butt now covered in her Hello Kitty panties, as she gets ready for work at the bar where he met her; she's late now, because her boss is calling, as Pharrell's 'Happy' rings out across the hotel room. (Because, according to her Tindr profile, 'she loves life, like a lot.')

And he's suddenly aware of the great likelihood that she's maybe 20, and probably seeing her boss.

Of course, she could be a successful businesswoman in her forties, who travels a lot because she never could settle down. Her phone's on silent most of the time for meetings, and her wallpaper is her adolescent daughter with a soccer trophy. Safe, right? Sure. Maybe it's not so bad. You do your thing, she does hers. You had a good time, and it's over now.

But was it worth it? Was it worth it in either case? How much do you matter to this woman? How much do you matter to either?

And, 'how much do you matter to your wife, and your kids?' I ask.

Oooh. That's the clincher. They never can reason that orgasm was worth the bit of their soul they've just compromised; that part of them that's growing necrotic and black, with each transgression, each lie, each further burdening.

But some people can't do it. They can't say no.

Because life is full of romantic interludes, and seductions. We don't make poor decisions easily -- we're not that stupid. But a good majority of us don't boldly go to that one section of the programme where we're going to be bored, confused, or stuck with our own thoughts as reality comes crashing down upon us, joining us in bed, in flagrante, and asking us, what have we just done?

So I suggest that we all do.

I know that the frenzied make out which my ex and I had sometimes cruelly, sometimes unintentionally teased each other with for years, is still a bit of my kryptonite. My brain returns to old times, and considers, that'd be pretty swell. If even to, y'know, say we did it. Now we know, and we can move on from it. No more tension.

But then I find myself in that moment after intromission, and thrusting's gone for awhile, and I think -- what the hell am I doing? I'm not this person anymore. I know he's not the sort of man I want to be having sex with. This is old stuff conjured from fantasies we had about each other when we thought a whole slew of things that aren't true. What the hell is this for? What am I going to possibly get from this that would ever be worth damaging -- and potentially destroying -- my boyfriend's trust?

Because the truth is, back when those fantasies were going on, and we considered having a set fling, we were playing by different rules. We thought we were in love -- or something. I'd not experienced true love in the context of a sexual encounter, or relationship. I'd not made love before. And, damn, that is awesome.

Anything I did with my ex would be cheap sex. I don't even need sex. Why the hell would I need cheap sex? So, for me, the answer was clear. I was after the moment in which he finally kissed me, and all of the awful sorrow of the rejection I'd suffered from him was no longer true -- because his actions were undeniable.

Of course he wanted to sleep with me, because it's happening. That part's pretty sexy. He's sexy. It's kinda hot. If I were single, and not in love -- hey, why the hell not? I'd be a different person; 'cheap sex' with an ex is okay -- because it wouldn't REALLY be cheap; it'd SECRETLY be intense, because REALLY he'd love me, but just couldn't show it, so --- see how dangerous that gets? And so quickly.

But now that I've had these conversations with myself -- these visualisations, exercises, and realisations -- so long as I've got a good grip on my emotions, I could potentially let myself be in that complicated situation, where it starts going there, and it's obvious that's where he's taking it.

But what do I really need out of it? Do I need to have cheap sex? No. Do I even need to kiss him? Hm. ... No. I don't. Because this particular moment isn't about us, but past-history us -- a fantastical version of us. He's got his complicated reasons for wanting to sleep with me, and I've already decided it's not a good idea to do so with him. Shoe's on the other foot. And, hey, maybe it needs to be.

Elton John's '90s hit does come to mind. 'It's no sacrifice at all.'

So, for me, it's a combination of logic and visualisation. Taking yourself to the moment where you're REALLY going to find reality hitting, and asking the honest question:

Do you like that reality?

Is it worth doing harm to your partner?

Most of us would say no, but we get caught up in the emotional motivations driving the behaviour -- which, honestly -- almost always have nothing to do with the 'infidelity partner' anyway.

posted November 15, 2015 04:57 PM            

quote:

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Elton John's '90s hit does come to mind. 'It's no sacrifice at all.'

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tsk tsk you forgot to link it!

One of my all-time favorite songs.

posted November 15, 2015 06:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
tsk tsk you forgot to link it!

One of my all-time favorite songs.

Thanks everyone for the open and honest conversation ...lovely reading here...not sure how to respond just yet.

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Nooo, I knew that you'd do that, because ... progressed Pisces MOON for the win!

Or ... y'know. Something.

posted November 15, 2015 08:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
This may seem like a random question, but I still want to ask it;

What do you think you are "losing" out on when a person cheats on you with another?

What really bugs people about infidelity?

---

Dishonesty.

And I also once forgave a cheating partner and offered a polyamorous relationship (not to be confused with open, we'd have to work out the rules if she agreed), but she got angry, swore monogamy was all she would do. And then, when I finally let my guard down, went back to cheating. So it's not "they cheat because monogamy is unnatural." Plenty of people are just fine with monogamy. Plenty of people in polyamorous relationships still cheat (that is, they break the agreement). Polyamory doesn't bother me, but cheating does. Those are two completely different issues.

posted November 16, 2015 01:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
I get you.

It may seem idealistic to live in a world where cheating does not happen.But this is unlikely.

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posted November 16, 2015 08:31 AM            

Yes well it's psychic of you to even mention the Pisces moon ~ it's as if you knew what was going through my head when I was listening to "Sacrifice." I used to have a very close friend who was a Pisces moon like myself. One day I told her that that was my favorite song. I was about 13. At the time, I thought the lyrics were: "Cold cold heart, pardoned by you..." And as a Capricorn I found that sentiment very beautiful! LOL...I loved the idea that someone could pardon my cold, cold heart. Anyway, I only said it once, and much later that song came over the radio and she turned it up and said, "You love this song, I know. I always think of you when I hear it." And that was just like her ~ she often did things like that, showing she cared. *sniffle*

Anyway, I loved your post, I think your counseling must be very effective ~ focusing on the difficult realities of cheating, the guilt, complexity, fantasies dying....you didn't mention STDs but as a 6H sun, I had them on my mind, too ....

Oh and you crack me up:

quote:

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No feverish making out and passionately tumbling into bed, or the sofa, or clearing things off of the nearest table. (Because -- really? How often has that actually happened in your life? The defence rests.)

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posted November 16, 2015 09:11 AM            

But the dishonesty usually begins before the cheating...and sometimes it is the partner who gets cheated on, who was insisting on a dishonest relationship...creating an emotional void.

I've been in relationships where the guy was essentially begging me to lie to him, as in:

Love me, love me
Pretend that you love me
Fool me fool me, go on and fool me...
I don't care if you really care
as long as you don't go

You know that song?

And when I said that I wanted to break up, the guy acted like I was killing him, and a Pisces moon cannot bear this. (So here's the stupid part.) I would just stay with him, manipulated into captivity by my own well-intentioned but ultimately kinda-backwards empathy.

And I've been 99% faithful overall in my life, and when I strayed a little bit, I hated myself, even though...man, I had asked for my freedom so many times (!!!) but no....his life was going to end, I was dooming him to eternal misery if I left, and blah blah blah.

You know, I would have liked to follow the Golden Rule in relationships, doing unto others as I would have done unto me, but it just didn't always work. I would try and break up fair and square, and they wouldn't accept that. So I thought they were just insisting on keeping the shell of me, when my heart wasn't in it.

And I think it's common for people to do that to each other, resort to manipulation to hold onto someone, and I really think it's just as bad as cheating. You ask a person to lie (say that you love me!) and then they lie in more ways than you bargained for (they cheat) and then they end up with *all* the blame? Doesn't seem like a balanced distribution of guilt...

I'm just saying the dynamics are often pretty complicated.

Please no one quote.

Or tell me off.

posted November 16, 2015 09:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gemini Blues:
Anyway, the point is, if you're entirely focused on "Will (s)he cheat", you're missing the point, you're missing the magic, and you're probably missing out on love.

---

I heart this. I feel the same, not just about relationship but about most things in life.

Back to cheating.

I let my husband know early that I don't really get offended at the thought of sexual/emotional infidelity, if he let me know afterwards so I could drop him. Lol ya have the guts to do it, you'll have to own up to it. I'd want him to stay true to his needs, and if I no longer could satisfy him, then I'd wish him good luck.

I'd only get mad if he carried on behind my back. That would be robbing me of my time and my right to choose. I'd go bat sht crazy and demand retribution in the worst of ways.

I'm like this with friendship too. Heh I've been fked over by friends before and didn't really feel much. Hence if I were cheated on, I'd deal in a similar way.

And yeah, sometimes people grow apart. Sometimes they do crppy things in their moments of weakness...etc...Yada yada. I don't really care much, I think. People have their own reasons to do what they do. Attempting to find out "why" would only hurt my head. So I let they do their things and I deal with them my way.

Well, my reply reeks of saturn's goodness.

posted November 16, 2015 10:28 AM            

Sorry you've been in those shoes, too. Yuck

But I still take my share of the blame for being weak and stupid. It just seemed like a Catch 22 sometimes, in the past. No easy solution.

posted November 16, 2015 10:37 AM            

quote:

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I let my husband know early that I don't really get offended at the thought of sexual/emotional infidelity, if he let me know afterwards so I could drop him.

---

As far as I know I have never been cheated on. I think the reason is, I am always one step ahead. If I saw my guy even slightly interested in another girl, I would bring it up matter-of-factly and kindly. "She likes you...you like her? I'm okay with it, if you want to date her?" And most of the time, the guy said No, and sometimes he said yes.

posted November 16, 2015 02:45 PM            

I think one of the most difficult parts on both sides of the equation is "What could I have done differently". Sometimes the answer is " nothing" or even "something worse".

It's heartbreaking when a deep relationship ends. It's akin to mourning a death. But healing starts with forgiveness. Including yourself.

posted November 16, 2015 04:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DopGang:
...

I remember that sometimes my family was more moved by a breakup than I was.

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posted November 16, 2015 05:42 PM            

I've seen you expressing such views from time to time. Each time I can't help but to feel "Yes she sounds overwhelmingly capricorn to me" haha.

Yes, my way is somewhat similar - "Go ahead do what you gotta do". Just don't waste my time by trying to pull the wool over my eyes and I'll be cool.

I think part of the reason is that I know that I don't stay unless I want the person. None of the whole connection thing, or the but-we've-been-through-so-much-together etc... matters. If I felt "s.t is missing", I'd be out of the door quite quickly. Staying would make me feel like fooling myself.

posted November 16, 2015 07:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gemini Blues:
Faith,

I think one of the most difficult parts on both sides of the equation is "What could I have done differently". Sometimes the answer is " nothing" or even "something worse".

It's heartbreaking when a deep relationship ends. It's akin to mourning a death. But healing starts with forgiveness. Including yourself.

---

Thanks - yes - I've said the same thing before. It's like mourning a death. Very sad.

quote:

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Originally posted by Gemini Blues:
To the broader point of the thread, I think that the great majority of the posts show that the problems with cheating have very little to do with the physical act.

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Nods.

And to answer Aries 23 Degrees' question:

What do you lose when someone cheats?

posted November 16, 2015 08:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:
Faith,

I've seen you expressing such views from time to time. Each time I can't help but to feel "Yes she sounds overwhelmingly capricorn to me" haha.

---

I'm doing the same thing reading other Caps' posts...recognizing our hoofprints all over them...it's especially fun here where we can openly recognize it, high five, and all that.

Earlier today I was listening to a short horoscope about the day's energy. Moon's in Cap today (as you may know, but future readers may not. ) The astrologer talked about how Capricorn has the ability to shut off the emotions, which frees them up to push ahead "to the top of the mountain" without emotional interference.

When I talk about letting people go, or encouraging them to go off and love whoever they want...it's not that I didn't love them...I just looked at the situation practically, and shut my emotions off (or turned the volume very low) as I dealt with it.

quote:

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Originally posted by 12muddy:
If I felt "s.t is missing", I'd be out of the door quite quickly. Staying would make me feel like fooling myself.
So I don't begrudge others for wanting and going after what they want.

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I'm similar...well...no...sometimes similar.

I have this cuckoo moon-Mars-Neptune t-square and hardly ever knew which way was up. Often I would just feel my way through situations with no real clear-cut objective.

Also for several years after the end of my Golden Era with my ex-soulmate, I honestly didn't want to date anyone but him and considered myself emotionally off limits. I had to push myself to move on and felt it was unfair to any guy I dated (ie emotional cheating from the start) to expect him to put up with me and my preoccupied heart. So maybe I preferred to be with guys who could be jerky at times, because at least then I didn't mind shortchanging them. Really at that point in my life a therapist was needed but not supplied.

posted November 16, 2015 08:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mergoatsun:
oops double post

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posted November 17, 2015 02:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
@Aubyanne

Yes well it's psychic of you to even mention the Pisces moon ~ it's as if you knew what was going through my head when I was listening to "Sacrifice." I used to have a very close friend who was a Pisces moon like myself. One day I told her that that was my favorite song. I was about 13. At the time, I thought the lyrics were: "Cold cold heart, [i]pardoned by you..." And as a Capricorn I found that sentiment very beautiful!

---

So much of what you said really, really resonated with me, Faith. I just wanted to make sure that I said that.

BUT, what grabbed me the most -- I was just a titch younger, but I also recall it being very big (somehow) when I was around the same age, so a few years after its release.

And, not having the Internet in those days, and none of my friends having the liner notes -- I, too thought it was 'pardoned by you'. Because, really, IT DOES sound that way.

Your clueing me into my progressed Pisces MOON was a HUGE eye-opener. So much suddenly made so, so much sense. It's currently moving into 5º orb of conjunction with my stepdaughter's natal Pisces rising, which is the same degree as my ASC; her MOON is 0º conjunct it. She's always amazing, and I love her to complete bits; we absolutely mesh, and have in this crazy psychic way since the very beginning. But lately ... there's a whole new level of understanding here.

Her father can be completely oblivious, frustrated, and demanding that his sweet, logical little girl has become a bizarre teenage space alien. But I get it. I get EXACTLY where she's coming from, and have been called upon to be her translator in more ways than one recently. There's undeniably this inexplicable other level that's in full swing now. It took me a second, to get this lunar 'Piscean groove' thing; I was initially thinking that I have NO idea how you guys don't feel entirely insane most days. Then I realised it's probably a bit like anything: moderation. Balance. You've got to learn to gain control and tune out as necessary, so you're not just 'plugged into the switchboard of EVERYTHING' all the friggin' time. SUCH an incredible, slightly overwhelming gift.

So while I don't even get these things, most of the time, I follow my old adage of 'just shooting my mouth off' when I'm following a hunch. Because something gets what's up -- even if I don't really consciously have a clue.

Jack will be having his progressed Pisces MOON next year. I won't exactly be an expert by the time his ingresses, but I'll definitely not be quite so much a fish out of water!