Lindaland
  Labors Of Love
  Preschooler who defies attempts at discipline

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Preschooler who defies attempts at discipline
Jugular
Knowflake

Posts: 160
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted September 09, 2008 06:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jugular     Edit/Delete Message
I have an amazing, gorgeous and lovable 3 1/2 year old son. He is the light of my life, of course. An Aqua sun, Aqua rising, Leo moon child.

The problem is, I was hit rather frequently as a child and despised my mother for it. I decided to raise this child without hitting, although my husband disagrees and occasionally gives our son a slap on the hand or the foot (which KILLS me, I cannot even watch). Threatening to take away toys is the only thing that works (but only temporarily) with this child. He doesn't seem to learn his lessons and therefore repeats "no no" behaviors at home. He makes a mockery out of "Time Out", talking and laughing the entire time, and resists my comments to him to "stop talking and just sit there."

Last night he asked me to open the lid on a cup of yogurt for him. I didn't come fast enough, so he hurled the yogurt across the living room, aiming for the TV cabinet. Of course, it opened and I had yogurt splattered on everything. His answer: "It was the only way I could think to open it by myself." I had to try hard not to laugh, even though at the same time I was angry. So I did the time out thing, and he mocked it the entire time.

Is this child more difficult because of his heavy Aqua? Does anyone have any good tips? I refuse to hit, but I'm being told I'm just creating a monster.

IP: Logged

Dervish
Knowflake

Posts: 449
From: California
Registered: Nov 2006

posted September 09, 2008 03:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dervish     Edit/Delete Message
Seems to me that if he knew being spanked was the alternative to a time out that he'd choose the time out (without the mockery). OTOH, my cousin was frequently spanked (& whipped as he got older) growing up, and it was also "temporary" (like your taking toys away).

I'd say I don't know overall, but that others say you're creating a monster makes me think that maybe you are. That assumes that he acts out with them present as opposed that they hear you're a no-spank parent (but if the latter, then they're just being dogmatic--not ALL children need to be spanked, though some obviously won't respond to anything less).


And as for tip, yes I can help you with that. I was raised with my parents and my Granny. I got smacked around in both, and I still hold a grudge against my parents but love my Granny. The difference is that granny was tough but FAIR. Even when I saw her as wrong, I knew she TRIED to be fair and was fair to the best of her ability. In contrast, my parents didn't hit to discipline me, they hit because they had no impulse control. They weren't fair, they were hypocrites. The rules (and their consequences) weren't consistent with them so that I wasn't ever sure what I could do and what would happen to me as a result.

IOW, consistency is the most important thing--ie, not "laughing it off this time because I'm in such a good mood" or "normally I'd warn him, but he's such a brat I think I'll just whomp him now." You're the adult, so act like one and show discipline yourself. Also of extreme importance: be a good example. Do NOT practice the all too common parental philosophy of "do as I say, not as I do," or he won't respect you--and you won't deserve his respect anyway. Letting him know he's loved, even when he's being disciplined (including spanked) is important. Being fair to the best of your ability and trying to see things from his PoV is also important.

From my experience, Granny did all that I advise to do and I don't hold ANY grudges against her. My cousin lived with her a lot and she spanked and whipped him quite a bit and he doesn't hold any grudges either, even laughing about "how mad she was" (not that she was "out of control"). He'll also be the first to say he deserved it (most of the time--but he got away with more than he was caught for so he doesn't hold grudges over the few mistakes, either). He likes to brag that it helped toughen him up, too.

Should I ever raise children from that age, I'll do everything I can to avoid spanking them. But from the sound of it, your son would've already been over my knee at least once. Still, I'm not actually in your shoes, and while I've taken care of kids I never actually raised any, so all I can do is share my experience growing up.

IP: Logged

lalalinda
Moderator

Posts: 3709
From: nevada
Registered: Jun 2005

posted September 10, 2008 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message
Children at that age test for limits
Putting limits and even disciplining your child makes them feel secure.
You're showing him that you care how he acts and how he turns out. You're teaching him.
A swat doesn't have to hurt for them to learn but you do have to be persistant.

good luck

IP: Logged

Jugular
Knowflake

Posts: 160
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted September 10, 2008 09:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jugular     Edit/Delete Message
Well, thank you ladies for the responses. And no, he does not act up at all at school or in front of angels. I get comments from the teachers that he is "one of the better behaved children". So I guess he's just pushing buttons (mine) at home. Maybe it's an attention getting thing. Either way, I really cannot see myself spanking him, even lightly. It does not sit well with me, brings back very unpleasant stuff. I guess I have to take away toys for days.

IP: Logged

wheelsofcheese
Knowflake

Posts: 1148
From: UK
Registered: Jan 2008

posted September 11, 2008 09:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheelsofcheese     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Jugular!

I'm no expert because I'm not a parent but one thing that stood out for me is this:

quote:
He makes a mockery out of "Time Out", talking and laughing the entire time, and resists my comments to him to "stop talking and just sit there."

Is it possible you could do a time out when you are close but not physically present for him to make a mockery of it? ie, around the doorway in another room? What he's doing by mocking you is attention seeking and if you are responding to the mockery by saying "stop talking and sit there" then he is winning the attention-seeking game. Maybe try a time out where you just ignore his behaviour until he calms down? It will require a lot of self-control, but hey, if it avoids a slap then great. I was slapped as a child, but only by my father "Wait til your father gets home" sort of thing, so he didn't have a full comprehension of why I required a slapping, he didn't see the scene. I still remember every single incident and still feel outraged!

Good luck!

IP: Logged

Jugular
Knowflake

Posts: 160
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted September 12, 2008 06:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jugular     Edit/Delete Message
Wheels, thanks. I was just told by a friend who's got young uns that I was doing Time Out wrong if I was talking back to my little boy... that part of it's intended effect is to give him the message that we're not talking to him, and this is how it feels to not be talked to, if you did something wrong. So I'm going to change Time Out and see what happens. I think you might have hit on something!

IP: Logged

robyn.c
Knowflake

Posts: 188
From: england
Registered: Dec 2007

posted September 17, 2008 07:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for robyn.c     Edit/Delete Message
to be honest you sound ineffectual and weak "what can i do??" better think of something because it wont get better it will get worse. in 10 years he might be throwing another person at the tv. these kind of children are the bane of their teachers, peers and other parents lives.

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 26385
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted September 24, 2008 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message

------------------
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." Charles Schultz

IP: Logged

wheelsofcheese
Knowflake

Posts: 1148
From: UK
Registered: Jan 2008

posted September 25, 2008 06:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheelsofcheese     Edit/Delete Message
I don't know if you've heard of Supernanny, Jugular? It's a British TV programme with a woman called Jo who goes and troubleshoots for families that are having discipline problems with their youngsters. Anyway, I saw the show a few nights ago and with regards to time outs, I had forgotten a few of the important elements.

It's important to use one place as the time-out place and stick to it. She calls it the 'Naughty Step', and uses the bottom of the stairs, which might not be suitable. A small chair would do. Don't know what I think about that phrase, but hey ho.

It's important not to overuse the time-out as a tool. Last resort, either for repeated warnings that get ignored, or if the issue is immediately serious (eg hitting a sibling/you or damaging something).

It's important that your child understands why you're doing a time-out. State clearly to him "You are having a time out because you did X and I don't like that behaviour and you will sit there for 3 minutes" Not that he would necessarily have a concept of 3 minutes but he need to know it's not forever. Remember that you should focus on "I". "I" don't like that behaviour, rather than the passive "That behaviour is bad".

If he gets up before the three minutes is up, put him back there again. Don't speak to him. If your child won't stay in the time out place you have to keep putting him back there, physically if you need to, but don't engage in conversation. This could go on for hours, you need to be prepared for it. Your will has to be greater than your childs.

If he manages to sit in the time-out as directed, go up to him, ask him to tell you that he is sorry. If he does that give him a hug and go and do something nice.

I know I'm not a parent but this girl seems to get results without killing the spirit of the child or losing mutual respect. Wish you all the best. Parenting looks hard work to me.
http://www.supernanny.co.uk/

IP: Logged

wheelsofcheese
Knowflake

Posts: 1148
From: UK
Registered: Jan 2008

posted September 25, 2008 07:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wheelsofcheese     Edit/Delete Message
And robyn, I think she was just asking for help, and that's constructive in itself. So, in steps wheels with all the theory and none of the reality!

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 26385
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted September 28, 2008 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message

------------------
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." Charles Schultz

IP: Logged

lkmarlow
Knowflake

Posts: 12
From: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted September 28, 2008 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lkmarlow     Edit/Delete Message
I have a 2 year old boy and can feel your frustration. I have read a book that has helped "1-2-3 Magic". I was very good at counting but counted to 15 if necessary! LOL That obviously didn't tell my kids (I have a 6 year old girl too) that I was serious. So now my son gets counted to 3 and then gets a time out. I have a baby gate so that he can't come out of his bedroom for time out. That's what works for me. And he doesn't get out until he stops screaming/crying. So by the time he has calmed down, I let him out. This seems to be working with him. Even though he still tests me, he is learning that there are limits. I got the book at a used book store pretty inexpensively. I hope that helps.

IP: Logged

robyn.c
Knowflake

Posts: 188
From: england
Registered: Dec 2007

posted September 29, 2008 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for robyn.c     Edit/Delete Message
sorry to be harsh, children dont raise themselves and being too weak is as damaging as being too hard. yes, Jugular, you were asking for help, i recommend Steve Biddulphs books (thats if you take recommendations from a b****- sorry!)

IP: Logged

koiflower
Knowflake

Posts: 617
From: Australia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted September 29, 2008 11:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for koiflower     Edit/Delete Message
I don't really have any experience in the 0-5 age range (except babysitting my three younger brothers). But observing the mothers around me over the years, that age group seems really difficult.

You survived the 'terrible twos', but by 3 and a half, I though there would be some settling into consequences by then.

Wheelofcheese's reference to Super Nanny's methods are ideal. Keep you own emotion out of it. Be quite cognizant when placing a child in Time Out (if you can).

Think of it as 'training'. Breaking in behaviour is like breaking in a horse. You must be firm and consistent, or risk being thrown off and not completing your goal.

Even though it is suggested that Time Out is equivalent to the age of the child eg, 3 years = 3 minutes, try to extend the time to another minute if the desired behaviour isn't presenting itself.

It is ideal that a child exits Time Out being calm and receptive, rather than mocking and antagonistic.

Also, it's necessary to show displeasure at undesirable behaviour. Once the child is calm and receptive, you may say in a stern voice "throwing yoghurt is the wrong choice. It makes a mess and it's something a boy who is nearly 4 doesn't do". That's all..!! Show your displeasure and then get on with a positive distraction.

Many parents these days are not wanting to spank due to a new look at parenting, peer pressure not to, and in some cases, legal retribution.

Here's some platitudes that I reflect on at times around children:

** spoil the rod, spoil the child
** walk away
** don't let a child rule the roost

Dr Stephen Poulter's book "The Mother Factor" states that mothers need to be mothers not friends to their children, otherwise their children become 'motherless'.

Author Rose Rock says in her book "Mama Rock's Rules":

quote:
At no time should you let your children disrespect you or treat you like a buddy. Everyone wants their children to like them but parenting is not a popularity contest. I don't need to be a 12 year old's friend, but I do need to be their protector, guide and warden. Otherwise, it's a cop-out"

Rose Rock is mother of 10 and has had 17 foster children.

Good luck - parenting looks like hard work!!!!

koiflower

IP: Logged

Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 2870
From: Japan
Registered: Aug 2003

posted September 30, 2008 05:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message
My son is 3yrs old and I can relate.

The thing I realized about time out is that you can't really let him know you're watching or paying attention. If you do, he'll act up more. Grab a timer and let him know that he's in there until it rings/beeps. And then ignore him (or pretend to) ... no talking, no eye contact, nothing. If he screams and cries and stands, it doesn't matter, so long as he stays in the designated area. Eventually, he'll realize that no matter what he does, he won't get the attention he wants. If he gets up, do put him back and walk away calmly and quietly.

Now, I have a friend whose 3yr old is decidedly more ... headstrong than mine. They do spank but only on very rare occassions and not violently or angrily (over the pants and underpants/diaper). But even the threat of a spanking is usually enough now to get him to stop and think for a second. Anyway, I realize many people think that goes too far so, when she doesn't resort to spanking, she lets him go off to a "safe place" of his own. Whether it's under the dining table or behind the couch or anywhere else quiet without toys/activities. He pretty much puts himself in a time-out to calm down. And it works. She used to struggle to put him in her "naughty corner" until she found that, when he's really pitching a fit, it just makes it worse. And by fit, I mean hitting, kicking, biting her and the like.

It's also really important to talk about what happened once everyone is calm. No long sermons or speeches because the attention span at this age is usually quite short. But a simple, "Do you know what you did wrong?" and "Next time think about this" is good. Always, imo, follow up with hugs and I love yous so that he learns that even if he is naughty, it's not the end of the world and that he'll get more and better attention by behaving well.

I think one of the problems we have is that we don't always give enough credit for the good times. Good behavior is expected and sometimes taken for granted. Every time a really bad things happen, there is a consequence. I've found that every time a really good thing happens, having a "reward" really works, whether it's just a snuggle and kind words, extra play time, or even a sweet treat. Once I started doing that? Just a whole new world of child rearing.

IP: Logged

Jugular
Knowflake

Posts: 160
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2008

posted October 05, 2008 09:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jugular     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you all for the time out advice and the spanking advice, as well (you too Robyn!!).

The tater tot hasn't thrown any more yogurt since then. He's a little better behaved at home. Interestingly enough, his new preschool teacher tells me he's one of the better behaved kids in the class, so I'm thinking he saves the acting out for me in particular (he's an angel with his Dad). Which I hear is common.

I'm going to try to ignore him completely when we next do time out. I like the timer idea, too. Thanks!

IP: Logged

Quinnie
Knowflake

Posts: 1029
From: on a chair beside a window
Registered: Jul 2002

posted October 08, 2008 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Quinnie     Edit/Delete Message
My son is 3 and a half also and I am having the same problem. Time out works though but you have to be consistent, not just with the no talking, eye contact etc. but also with the reasons why you put him on time out. (I need to practise what I preach). So if you don't accept him throwing toys, food etc. then everytime he does it put him on time out.

I find he plays up more when he is tired and copies new behaviour from other kids (as well as copying mum and dad). If he is at creche and another kid is playing up he might choose to do this also to see how effectual it is. He will do it at home with his mum because that the safest place to try it.

Just be strong, consistent and communicate with your partner
It's really better if you are both disiplining in the same way.

Good luck and remember, you are not alone!!!

IP: Logged

CrimsonChyld
Knowflake

Posts: 226
From: Murray, UT
Registered: May 2008

posted October 11, 2008 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CrimsonChyld     Edit/Delete Message
I agree with Wheels! I watched a few episodes of The Nanny and saw her teach the time out thing a few times.
My twins were experts at it lol.. (they are now 16)
And even my 8 year old who has ADHD is quite a handfull at times.
The most important thing with kids is consistancy. You need to keep on a routine with discipline and never let them get the best of you or they won't respect you and it WILL get worse.
With time out you should pick a spot that's best in your house for it. When you put them in time out you need to have NO emotion. Sit him there and walk away. Keep close and wait for him to either get up or give it a few seconds and go check on him. Then when he's out of time out.. do it again. But no emotion or eye contact. Keep this up..it will wear you out!! But don't let him win! Be persistant and know that it will be worth it I promise.
As for hitting... I have a problem with it too for similar reasons. But I don't spank hard.. it's surprising what a very little swat will do.. it doesn't hurt them, just startles them.
And my youngest is 8 yrs old and it still amazes me how he learns and goes from verbally fighting me on things to just saying "yes mom".. I get so proud when he does this.
When he does do a time out that's acceptable, give him a hug and let him know that you love him and thank him for listening to you. But one thing I like to do is make sure they understand what they are being punished for. You'd be surprised how little they don't understand. I'm constantly having to correct my son for not understanding why I punished him. Communication is important in any relationship.

Okay, I'll get off my soap box lol...

Good luck!

------------------
"Secrets and lies can sleep from the walls of Rome if we sit hard enough on them. They are undeniably destined to come out. Tomorrow, the next day or a hundred years from now!"

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 26385
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted October 13, 2008 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
As a side note: People often refer to the "spare the rod, spoil the child adage," but that isn't even talking about punishment at all. Sheperds used their rod to nudge and guide the sheep in the right direction. The never used it to strike the sheep. So what this adage really means is to guide your children (lead by example). It has no real bearing on the example in this string, but I thought I'd just post it as a side note.

------------------
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." Charles Schultz

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Linda-Goodman.com

Copyright © 2008

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a