posted February 01, 2003 10:22 PM           

What does the rest of we think about this?

posted February 01, 2003 10:25 PM           

Can you move strings, Randall?

posted February 01, 2003 10:31 PM         

It also sickens me how they label themselves "right to life". nice way to twist words, huh? it's about a right to CHOOSE. and I completely agree that a woman should have that right.

The other people who strongly advocate a woman NOT having that right are privelaged people who would practically never be faced with such trying circumstances, or they're people who are convinecd by religion that it's "not right" and so children are born into misery.

posted February 02, 2003 03:57 AM           

and then there is the question.. what is considered irresponsible?

posted February 02, 2003 04:21 AM         

I know this is a very delicate matter. And a woman should ultimately be able to choose what she does. But I think to say there is no life in what will become a baby is sad. But I know a lot of women will disagree with me. And no, I don't hold myself any better than anyone else. And I know those matters are difficult. But if you've ever met anyone who had an abortion and had no concept whatsoever of what was going on or actually being careful in the future, well, it's really sad.

But, I admit there are those times when one stresses out wondering of they might be pregnent and it's tough. Obviously many don't WANT to do it, but realize, money is tight, or life will not be good if I bring this child into the world.

What's irresponsible? Irresponsible was me for many years simply hoping the amount of drugs I took would prevent any kind of pregnency happening, did I take any precautions no, I just figured if I did become pregnent the drugs would "stop" it, yes I know that sounds awful, but most times I was also hoping to do away with my own self at the same time. Irresponsible is my friend whose girlfriend is a model so won't take birth control pills in fear of weight gain and he doesn't like the feel of condoms so she got pregnent and she had an abortion, OK this happens, now they still have sex unprotected refusing to learn anything from the abortion which I try not to judge but am saddened by what I feel is irresponsible..

I really try not to pass judgement b/c I never know what anyone goes thru..but if I want to cry for unborn babies I can..and I'm no bible thumper either..I'll cry just the same for the single working mother who can barely support her kids..it's a tough world and sometimes no matter what decision is made life is tough...

I see both sides and just wish we could all get along dispite our different views. We are all still people who are fighting for right things. Like someone said I see them both, although I don't think it would be even right to question a woman's right to do this, I just think it might be right to say, hey this is something real.

And I think there is no question in anybody's mind if when a woman is raped or forced to have incest or something like that, that abortion is without question due.

posted February 02, 2003 07:26 AM         

I had a friend who, when he was nineteen years old, got himself involved with a sixteen-year-old girl. He got the girl pregnant for several times, and the girl aborted the child on each occasion. Later, my friend found that he's incompatible with the girl and decided to break up. The girl was devastated. She became emotionally unstable and her parents had to send her away to study overseas so that she could get this over.

ANother friend of mine had an eye on a girl when he was 16. SHe wasn't interested in him initiailly, so they setttled for a "brother and sister" relationship. But as with most "brother and sister" relationship, it turned into something else. Before long, they became a couple and the girl became pregnant. For some reason, after she had become pregnant, she decided that my friend could not be trusted and she wanted to break up, despite my friend's constant pleading. Anyway, they did break up, and the girl was later cuaght shoplifting. She decided to keep her baby and so she basically gave birth to the baby in prison. (well, it isn't really a prison, but a place for offenders under 18). Since she's resolute in not seeing my friend, I arranged for my friend a priest to visit her in "prison". She was given two options, one was to give away her baby to be taken care of by someone or some organization, and hte other one was to raise the baby herself, in "prison". She opted for the latter.

Years later, I started taking up teaching in a school where the students were of a very low academic standard and generally lack parental care. I would share with them these stories to caution them not to do silly things. At that time, there was a 15-year-old boy in my class who was in love with a girl 3 yeras older than he was. And when I related those stories, I did it not just for him, but particularly for him.

A year after I left that school, I got a call from him, telling me that he got his girlfriend pregnant. She was adamnant about keeping the baby but he wanted to get rid of it. HE said he wanted a future. He said he wanted to continue his studies.

After a period of working with the social worker, things seemed to have settled. She was going to have the baby and the boy seemed to have accepted it, until when we "coincidentally" found out that the girl had German measles injection not long prior to getting herself pregnant. THe meant there's a possiblity that the baby would be born malformed. WHen the girl was told about this, she had to struggle with herself whether or not to keep the baby. SHe simply couldn;t make up her mind, and yet time was running out. Later, she said that she'd decided to keep the baby. She was sent to the hospital becuase she was feeling unwell. When the social worker and I got to the hospital to see her, we were told that she had just signed an agreement to abort the baby. I watched as she was taken out of the operation room. The expression on her face. It was the last day of school before X'mas holiday that year. The boy said that it was going to be the most unforgettable x'mas, and that he was never goign to have sex again before he had finsihed school.

In the corridor, I asked the social worker what she would have done if she were the girl. She said she would have chosen abortion also.

Later, the boy called and told me that she decided to abort because if the baby was normal, it would be loved by many many people, and so it would be happy, even if she was not rich; but if the baby was malformed, every one would shun away from it, and it would have no love. She didn't want to take this risk.

Still later, I learned that the boy had soon forgot about the unforgettable x'mas and had got his girlfriend pregnant again. This time they had the baby. He didn;'t finish school, and the last I heard of him was that he was walking on the street with his wife, and three kids.

Half a year later, I got a phone call from another student from that school. She asked me to lend her money to have an abortion. I refused. And that was that. I heard that she did it, and her family did not even know that she was ever pregnant.

At one stage, I felt that the two cases were sent to me so that I could help "save" the lives of the two babies ... ON both occasions I tried to persuade the students to keep the baby. I wasn't sure if that was the "rightest" thing to do, I just knew that I had to help keep a life. I used to feel so bad about it whenever I thought about it. BUt these past couple of years .. all I feel is confusion.

I know, I know there are both sides... I just... don't want to see alife ... killed.
This, I guess, come down to the question of whether the fetus has life. I knew what Linda said on the subject. I just wonder if it could be proven.

posted February 02, 2003 07:44 AM           

One thing is for certain though - Children are expensive.

How can you condone bringing a child into the world when you dont have the means to support them, which is what most (probably) mothers would find happens, where they could have chosen an abortion instead and waited until they were able to provide a full existance to the child.

Thats just my take...but then if most people used protection like they were meant to it wouldnt be a problem

The problem is as sentient beings we become so detached from the nature our bodies are designed to live in everything becomes highly artificial - there's no getting away from that fact unless you take a bunch of people into a rainforest and have nothing further to do with the outside world. This is just another facet of the rather nasty choice our culture leaves us with. Yet another reason why its' broken and has to be moved - because at the end of the day, why do people have to make these decisions at all?

Money.

It all boils down to wether you can afford a child, to feed it, buy toys, keep it warm at night - for that you need money. And just take a look at most council estates (as they're called in the UK) - the "wellfare kids" dont really have a crack at a good life growing up there, now, do they?

posted February 02, 2003 04:36 PM           

Thank you all for sharing your views; in summary, abortion is a tragedy all around.

posted February 06, 2003 09:41 PM         

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posted February 07, 2003 10:19 AM         

Just my opinion.

posted February 07, 2003 08:27 PM         

I wasn't saying anything different. I get very defensive about women's issues as I can't for the life of me, understand why some people are still so barbaric in their approach to women. I can't understand how anyone who doesn't have to face it can say that abortion is wrong and that a woman should not have that choice.

Yes, I agree that it's sad that circumstances would ever have to lead someone to that decision. But I also believe that for a little while, tissue is just tissue and cells are just cells. It takes time for a life to form. I know that's frank talk that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

Do you have a sister? Or are you very close with any women? If so, imagine how you would respond to that girl being faced with a tragic situation...poverty, rape, or just not being ready...and she decides it's best for all involved (even the prospect of a baby) that she abort the pregnancy. Would you tell her not to? But then, would you be the one faced with a lifetime of commitment you can't face either emotionally or practically? This is where I truly feel abortion is a woman's issue.

posted February 07, 2003 08:44 PM         

I would say check that out. They're much more capable of answering certain questions about abortion as this is an org. hat is faced with it every day, in large numbers.

posted February 07, 2003 09:45 PM         

I agree with what you wrote and I think your views were well said.

For myself, I would never have an abortion. That is MY RIGHT to choose. I believe that at conception a new life is formed. That is MY BELIEF. I do not have the right to make someone else choose, that is between them and their loved ones and / or their God.

I have compassion for those in trouble, whether as a young girl in trouble, a rape victim or other various circumstances. I do ABHOR the use of abortion as birth control. I think that women that fall in to bed with any man or want to screw without thinking of the consequences are mentally feeble and are not only doing themselves a great diservice, but they are also hurting society.

For the women that continues to abuse her body and esteem, the abortion procedure will only cause further harm as it is completely invasive. It is a surgery and has the same possible complications as any other surgery.

I knew women / girls that used abortion as a birth control and one was up to her 3rd by the age of 19. Yes, it is her body, but what a dolt not to think about using some protection. Anytime you decide to sleep with another human being you really have to think about the consequences, not just the fun.

Obviously, I am not addressing this to the women that find themselves in specific situations, but am addressing the idiots that would treat their bodies so callously as to undergo local anesthesia and an invasive procedure as a form of birth control.

For the women friends of mine that know my stance on abortion for myself, they also know that I am very supportive and will be there for them before and after their choice.

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"Lahn dádzaayú nahikai leh ni' nyelíí k'ehge," Goyathlay (Geronimo)

posted February 10, 2003 01:57 PM         

Until simple astrological birth control is put to use, I am holding the Vatican personally responsible for every single abortion in the "christian" world. A very heavy karmic debt indeed.

posted February 10, 2003 03:29 PM         

I have been loathe to add my two cents to this discussion as I am a man, and as such will never find myself in the position of having to make such a difficult choice about aborting or carrying a child to term.

After having read the many replies to this question, I feel impelled to mention a few facts that might be worthy of consideration.

1) As Linda stated in Star Signs the body is NOT the Soul, it is merely a Temple, and if one Temple is destroyed, another can be built. This is the same case with people that choose to physically die, the Temple is worn out, in need of repair, and in some cases the damage is so structural there is no choice but to raze it to the ground and start again.

2) PERHAPS, and this may be a stretch, but perhaps the Soul/Spirit of the aborted infant CHOSE to only be associated with a particular body/Temple through the initial stages of cell division and formation of the fetus - and therefore CHOSE to Incarnate to a parent that would CHOOSE ABORTION so that it (the Spirit/Soul) could have that particular experience.

3) Since a human being cannot CREATE a SOUL/Spirit (God already took care of that) but only the vehicle that will accomodate that Soul in the Physical plane, ABORTION is NOT destroying the Soul. It's kind of like when an artist fashions a piece in clay... if She/He does not like it or it is not turning out as planned, the artist will collapse the piece and start again. The CLAY is still there.. so nothing really has been destroyed. (I know it's a bad analogy, but I think it comes close to what I'm trying to say.)

4) I think we need to be careful of what we consider SIN to be.. and the entire issue of Right/Wrong and Good/Bad. This is very well handled in the Conversations With God material by Neale Donald Walsch.

5) As one pointed out, we cannot judge a person until we have walked a mile in their moccasins... (and even then, if God isn't judging us, who are we to judge each other?)it is very easy to sit back and cast aspersions, but it is another thing entirely to open the Mind/Soul/Heart enough to have compassion for those in a particular situation.

I'm not sure all of my points are as clear as I would like to make them. This is a very difficult topic to discuss as it is so very personal. It is my hope that I have offered some food for thought here.. as I certainly know that I have not offered any SOLUTIONS to the problem.