posted December 17, 2003 03:19 PM         

Updated: 10:48 AM EST
Rumsfeld Ponders Getting Saddam to Talk
By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, AP

WASHINGTON (Dec. 17) - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld sounded intrigued when asked how to get Saddam Hussein talking to his interrogators.-----------------------------------------------------------.

"The defense secretary said Saddam was being ''accorded the protections'' of a prisoner of war but was not formally designated as such."
--------------------------------

Coupled with a televised PBS interview of Sec Rumsfeld on Monday evening where he said the exact same thing. Namely, Saddam has received and will receive all the rights accorded to POW's but he is not designated as a POW. He will receive the same treatment POW's receive under the Geneva Accords.

jwhop

posted December 17, 2003 03:40 PM         

b) Target one specific country that is just one of several that are against the US and that really, was not the biggest threat in the horizon- especially as a lot of other countries are under much worse regimes than Iraq, and as we SUPPORT a lot of these countries (Pakistan is a good example).

Yep, that's it in a nutshell. There is probably a lot more that I have to say, but finals have leached all the little grey cells from my head , and I have thirty lovely people to check out of the dorm, so I feel a little... fuzzy.

I leave for warm WARM climes on Thursday!!!
Excited I am!

posted December 17, 2003 03:52 PM         

We have to tackle one psycho at a time. Trying to do a scattershot to take everyone out is a terrible approach that wastes time and money. So the answer to your second point is yes, we will get to the others in time - regardless.

You're first point is also off. See, Saddam was wanted long before we declared war on him for his OTHER war crimes. Yes, he did commit atrocities against others while engaged in war with Iran and against the Kurds. He did not abide by the Geneva convention when he tortured his enemies or Prisoners of War. Did you hear what he said regarding Scott Spicker, who was shot down and captured? He stated 'We do not keep prisoners of war" They KILL them. That is not in the Geneva convention is it?

posted December 17, 2003 04:19 PM         

Just another reason why I Lindaland and all the ~S

juniperb

posted December 17, 2003 05:00 PM         

so i abstract in my mind and strip away national and ethnic identity, agendas, pride, dreams, and idealism --- and see that this is a fight about interpretation and the power to manifest them. in a fight, disagreement takes place b/c there is disregard and diminuation of another's value system, and vice versa.

:-|

posted December 17, 2003 05:06 PM         

No, I didn't say that - but we have to deal with one at a time. That is the way life goes. Since neither you nor I have access to the confidential documents or intel, we cannot say which is a more imminent threat. That is up to the people in charge of these things.

The guy is a war criminal. Do you agree with that? Do you think criminal need to be prosecuted or should they go free because they do not like the rules / laws?

So you think we would apply the Geneva convention to us, but it's okay for Iraq to murder, torture and commit atrocities because they didn't SIGN the treaty? LOL...that is funny.

So, if I didn't KNOW if a law, I can break it? You are probably the same person that states they are allowed to use torture because they didn't sign the convention treaty BUT it is wrong to torture them in order to gain information. (We wouldn't do that, but if they were in other hands that would happen).

Again, I see you siding more on the rights of the criminals comfort that the victims pain.

posted December 17, 2003 05:26 PM         

Fact Sheet
Bureau of International Organization Affairs
Washington, DC
March 20, 2003

Saddam Hussein's Defiance of UNSCRs

Over the past 12 years, Iraq has violated more than seventeen United Nations Security Council Resolutions (UNSCRs) and remains in material breach of disarmament obligations. The Iraqi regime has also sought to circumvent economic sanctions. The UNSCRs required that Iraq declare and divest itself, under international supervision, of weapons of mass destruction and related programs, delivery systems and ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometers; not commit acts of international terrorism, or allow others who commit such acts to operate in Iraqi territory; account for missing Kuwaitis and other individuals; return stolen Kuwaiti property and bear financial liability for damage from the Gulf War; and end repression of the Iraqi people.

Saddam Hussein is in violation of the following United Nations Security Council Resolutions:

UNSCR 1441 - November 8, 2002

Found that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its disarmament obligations.
Gave Iraq a final opportunity to comply.
Demanded that Iraq submit a currently accurate, full and complete declaration of its weapons of mass destruction and related programs within 30 days.
Demanded that Iraq cooperate immediately, unconditionally and actively with the UN inspections.
Decided that false statements or omissions in Iraq's declarations and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with and cooperate fully in the implementation of this resolution would constitute further material breach.
Recalls that the Security Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations.
UNSCR 1284 - December 17, 1999

Created the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace previous weapon inspection team (UNSCOM).
Iraq must allow UNMOVIC "immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access" to Iraqi officials and facilities.
Iraq must fulfill its commitment to return Gulf War prisoners.
Calls on Iraq to distribute humanitarian goods and medical supplies to its people and address the needs of vulnerable Iraqis without discrimination.
UNSCR 1205 - November 5, 1998
"Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease cooperation" with UN inspectors as "a flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687 and other resolutions.
Iraq must provide "immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspectors.

UNSCR 1194 - September 9, 1998
"Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend cooperation with" UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes "a totally unacceptable contravention" of its obligations under UNSCR 687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1154 - March 2, 1998
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes that any violation would have the "severest consequences for Iraq."
UNSCR 1137 - November 12, 1997
"Condemns the continued violations by Iraq" of previous UN resolutions, including its "implicit threat to the safety of" aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN inspector monitoring equipment.
Reaffirms Iraq's responsibility to ensure the safety of UN inspectors.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1134 - October 23, 1997
"Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1115 - June 21, 1997
"Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "clear and flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1060 - June 12, 1996
"Deplores" Iraq's refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and Iraq's "clear violations" of previous UN resolutions.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1051 - March 27, 1996
Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of mass destruction to the UN and IAEA.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 949 - October 15, 1994
"Condemns" Iraq's recent military deployments toward Kuwait.
Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors.
Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.
UNSCR 715 - October 11, 1991
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 707 - August 15, 1991
"Condemns" Iraq's "serious violation" of UNSCR 687.
"Further condemns" Iraq's noncompliance with IAEA and its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Iraq must halt nuclear activities of all kinds until the Security Council deems Iraq in full compliance.
Iraq must make a full, final and complete disclosure of all aspects of its weapons of mass destruction and missile programs.
Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must cease attempts to conceal or move weapons of mass destruction, and related materials and facilities.
Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors to conduct inspection flights throughout Iraq.
Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support for UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 688 - April 5, 1991
"Condemns" repression of Iraqi civilian population, "the consequences of which threaten international peace and security."
Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population.
Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to those in need of assistance.
UNSCR 687 - April 3, 1991
Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all "chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities."
Iraq must "unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material" or any research, development or manufacturing facilities.
Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all "ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 KM and related major parts and repair and production facilities."
Iraq must not "use, develop, construct or acquire" any weapons of mass destruction.
Iraq must reaffirm its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Creates the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) to verify the elimination of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programs and mandated that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) verify elimination of Iraq's nuclear weapons program.
Iraq must declare fully its weapons of mass destruction programs.
Iraq must not commit or support terrorism, or allow terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq.
Iraq must cooperate in accounting for the missing and dead Kuwaitis and others.
Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.
UNSCR 686 - March 2, 1991
Iraq must release prisoners detained during the Gulf War.
Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.
Iraq must accept liability under international law for damages from its illegal invasion of Kuwait.
UNSCR 678 - November 29, 1990
Iraq must comply fully with UNSCR 660 (regarding Iraq's illegal invasion of Kuwait) "and all subsequent relevant resolutions."
Authorizes UN Member States "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area."

Here is the full link: http://www.state.gov/p/nea/ci/c8787.htm

Sorry this it was so long. I too needed to be convinced and there it is in black and white (or internet blue for new links )

At any rate, Saddam, being the president, is directly responsible for the decisions made for his country and is therefore held accountable. Just like Hitler.

posted December 17, 2003 06:19 PM         

The fact remains the POW and warcrime portion is stil in the resolution and reason for war. Regardless if it is at the end of the document. Therefore and we had reason to go to war, capture him and try him. It was voted on, agreed to and executed legally. There you go. Your argument holds no weight.

posted December 17, 2003 07:16 PM         

I fully understand the need of the Iraqi citizens to see a picture of the man that so tormented them. I can't begin to comprehend their fear, but I certainly can acknowledge it. Wars require their publicity agents too, don't they?

Yes, I was aware of the Iraqi war crimes mentioned. I was aware of them before they were conveniently used as a just cause for the Gulf War. You know, back when Washington so compassionately turned the other way. After all, Saddam was preferable to the Shahs, yes? Sometimes it hurts when those chickens come home to roost. Maybe it is not wise to make deals with Devil after all?

I have no bilge or bile for my country. I love my country with a fervour sometimes bordering on religious. I wish for my country to live up to it's ideals. To claim its destiny. I have no politcal agenda. Quite honestly, the phrase is not in my vocabulary. I am many things, but a hypocrite I am not.

"The rest of your post is laughable" "what crap" "PUH-LEEZE"

posted December 17, 2003 09:20 PM         

Misquoting or misrepresenting numbers and facts do nothing but make the argument, from that standpoint, weak and almost ridiculous. I am willing to listen to all sides, but please give logical and true facts. If you don't know, just say so. I agree with Aphrodite, that alot of the facts that we will never know are locked away somewhere, not for everyday human consumption....along with UFO's and aliens!

Being angry at George Bush does not make an argument right or wrong.....anger is a personal emotion and with that thought, it becomes a personal emotion against George Bush NOT America! Not everyone likes George, just as not everyone liked Abraham Lincoln or John F. Kennedy, but don't smear America in the process.

posted December 18, 2003 10:09 AM         

We all can see the atrocities committed in Cuba, not only on the Cubans that cannot leave the island, yet about the 660 prisoners - besides children between 12 and 15 years -confined in Guantanamo, a few kilometers from Fidel's jails.

These prisoners are isolated for two years, with a routine that is just interrupted by constant interrogations.
None of them was formally accused, nor are allowd to get in touch with a lawyer or entitled to receive visit. The prisoners stay in small cells, that they leave for just 15 minutes a week to take bath. The attempted suicides are common...

quote:

---

" Regarding the detainees at the American naval base in Guantanamo, Cuba, the US is currently violating its own Army regulations as well as the Geneva Convention, namely in the way the prisoners are housed (in open-air cages with roofs).

US Army rules reflect the convention and require that all persons taken into custody by US forces during a conflict be treated as prisoners of war, until some other status is determined by a competent tribunal.

This means that all combatants - Taliban, Al Qaeda, and others - captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan must be treated at first as POWs until their status can be decided by a competent tribunal.”

“This is like a Devil's Island.”

Michael Ratner, president of the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights.

---

quote:

---

Some experts say the conditions at Guantanamo are ripe for legitimate suicide attempts. Of particular concern is the lack of contact with family and lawyers.
The Washington Post

---

In my opinion it is unjustifiable that foreign citizens "suspicious of terrorism", don't have permission to a Military Tribunal judgement, as foreseen in the martial courts, nor for an International Tribunal, creating an indefinite situation and without juridical classification.

The prison of Guantanamo doesn't confine war prisoners, nor convicts, but simply suspicious. The only possible comparison is with the Jews in the concentration camps, during II World War, where they lost their juridical identity. Both, Bush and Saddam are transgressors of the Human Rights, each one on his way. Both have typical attitudes of dictators regimes .

On that process, the only argument sustained by George W. Bush government was that the detainees are " enemy " combatants, a definition that doesn't exist in the juridical world, yet, that in practice, put the prisoners out in a limbo of the international laws. And the situation proceeds without any effective intervention.

We know that Saddam will have a Iraquian tribunal. Well, the country still doesn't have light, water or food in many points. How, then, to revitalize an institution, to select a body of exempt magistrates to judge Saddam and his followers?

Now, with Saddam captured, President Bush has the opportunity to expose to the world the brutality of an -under any excuse- indefensible dictatorship. And of explaining what was done with his weapons of mass destruction , if he had them...

President Bush said that the USA will work in narrow collaboration with the Irakis - what is a good sign, but still insufficient. For the judgement of Saddam it is worth the same logic that is applied to the American occupation: as larger the international community's involvement, the better it's legitimacy.

Because if it doesn't happen that way, we will be confirming that what we see is just the two faces of the same coin...

posted December 18, 2003 11:51 AM         

It's too close to Christmas for this. Count me out

posted December 18, 2003 01:22 PM         

quote:

---

Yes, I was aware of the Iraqi war crimes mentioned. I was aware of them before they were conveniently used as a just cause for the Gulf War. You know, back when Washington so compassionately turned the other way. After all, Saddam was preferable to the Shahs, yes? Sometimes it hurts when those chickens come home to roost. Maybe it is not wise to make deals with Devil after all?

---

Well said, TINK. I think that point gets swept under the carpet too often..

Jackie, thank you for bringing up the conditions at Guantanamo. To believe that we aren't torturing people there is incredibly naive, I think. We torture our own prisoners here in the states! Protesters in Miami that were unfortunate enought to be arrested, often without charges, were treated brutally in jail. Cells the size of dog kennels without bathrooms that are hosed down with high-pressure hoses every two hours for 'hygenic' purposes- with the prisoners still in them. Some of them beaten, peppersprayed and tazered just to intimidate the larger group of protesters into cooperating.. These things and much worse happen every day in our prisons. If we do this to Americans, I shudder to think what 'suspected enemy combatants' have to deal with at Guantanamo.

posted December 18, 2003 02:12 PM         

I agree completely La-Tee-Da and jwhop is right. It's too close to Christmas for the slamming. No amount of facts will change minds when emotions are running rampant.

In any case, it's like Aphrodite said, there is so much we just don't know.