posted April 30, 2007 12:32 PM         

You guys who are against the war have been great but I think that at this time both Pidaua and Bear need all the comfort and support they can get from us here at LL. Silence is preferable to turning Pid's threads for Bear into a political debate about the war but I think it can also denote indifference which they neither need or deserve at this time. Rather we are aware of it or not, silence at times can speak volumes depending on the circumstances.

I am guessing but I think that it might be very meaningful to the troops to hear from those of us who do not support the war just to let them know that we DO support them and care about them. I think it would be great if we could establish a fund here at LL in which we can all donate what we can afford and send a package with letters from us along with it from the people at LL. Or we can do it on an individual basis. Whatever we choose.

Supporting the men and women fighting this war is not the same thing as supporting the war. War is political. The troops are human beings. Politics should be set aside when it comes to support for them. We should be able to do that on a human level regardless of our political beliefs and opinions about war. These people did not ask for this war any more than we did and they all joined the military for different reasons. There are probably lots of other places on the planet that these people would rather be than in Iraq or Afghanistan. Mostly at home with their families and loved ones.

The worse thing about the Vietnam War and all the anti-war sentiment is the way those guys were treated on their return home. Even then I felt it was cruel to treat them like that. Most of those guys were drafted into the military at that time. Even today without the draft people join the military for all kinds of reasons. Legally killing other people is not at the top of their list unless they are sociopaths and we do have those in every walk of life. It doesn't represent humanity on the whole. What those people did at Abu Gharib is not representive of the military personnel as a whole. Things like that happen in all wars but only by a few.

I also think we should lend support and comfort to the wives, girlfriends, and family of those people serving - put ourselves in their place. It must be awful for them to hear on the news that more troops died today and then jump every time the phone rings or hope and pray that two guys in uniform do not show up on their doorstep.

I am not in favor of this war and I think that everyone here knows this who ever goes to GU. Even if many of the military personnel think differently than I do I still appreciate and admire their willingness and courage to make the sacrifices they do and be willing to stand up and fight for their beliefs. I also appreciate and admire their loved ones for the sacrifices they are making. It's just as hard for them.

If you think about it, it's a whole lot easier for those of us who are against the Iraq War. We sign the petitions, vocalize our opposition and some of us even publically protest the war. In that way we are fighting for our beliefs too but our lives are not in danger on a daily basis in doing the things we do in our fight for peace. Not the same thing for those men and women who are in a situation that they neither asked for or want. Yet they are doing what they feel is right just as we are. With greater risk.

These are just my thoughts and it's okay if you disagree with them. I just felt sad for Pid and Bear that they are not getting the support they deserve to hear from all of us here at LL on their threads. I especially feel bad for them because they just got married this past summer. Even though they both knew up front they would be separated at times and that Bear might be sent to Iraq or Afghanistan. Still, you know, it's got to be very rough for them.

posted April 30, 2007 04:15 PM         

I don't know what to say.... the tears make it hard to read the screen. Thank you... Thank you for the words that you spoke from your heart. Thank you for being so supportive and caring.

There are a good number of people here that have voiced their support and that is what I concentrate on- the positives. I know others won't because of past differences and because of their feelings about war, it is their right to keep silent. I won't let it affect my shout outs to Bear nor will it affect the happiness Bear and his troops feel when they read this site and all the well wishes.

We appreciate each and every post, every care package and it does make those joes so very happy to see cards and letters from home- even from strangers that soon become friends. I try to include things for the younger joes, treats, games etc... There is nothing more heartbreaking than to be that single Soldier and day after day, mail comes, but you receive nothing. Bear makes sure all the joes get to read everything that comes in for the troops. They hang up cards, letters and play with all the goodies that are included in the packages (like those crazy balloons Blue- they LOVED them).

They have enough negativity where they are at this time. They get it from the news, they get it from wives, fiances and girlfriends that just give up, sending Dear John letters instead of "i love you" letters.

They deal with the loss of their friends, killed by IED's, ambushes and car bombs. Only to return to the states and have psycho people protest the funerals telling them they deserve it.

They are doing their jobs. I can guarantee that Bear would love nothing better to be back home with me, as do his fellow Soldiers. They feel they have a job to do and they are doing it. I am fortunate that I have people like those that have posted on his threads and sent me e-mails plus my family is a great source of support.

I send Bear a care package every week and I write him a letter every day, we are also blessed in that we talk every day as well. I feel for Soldiers that do not have anyone to miss them or write to them. Some of those Soldiers are in Bear's platoon and they look forward to packages like Blue sent.

Mirandee, you really are a remarkable person. Thank you again....

Lala..... Lots of love to you. I hope all is well.

Blue, Thank you... you are the best.

posted April 30, 2007 08:25 PM         

I had to stop a minute and think that maybe there really ARE people who want to see the troops dead?!??

C'mon, seriously- has ANYONE, right or left, been quoted on the news or even here in LL saying they HOPE our guys die?

this ISN"T Vietnam. No, I wasn't alive to see what happened when it ended, and I don't know if I can really trust what the "historians" tell me about that time frame, given how there is no such thing as an objective opinion about anything.

The reason I oppose the war is because I don't want to see ANYONE needlessly killed, maimed, or psychologically damaged. ANYONE. Not our troops, not Iraqi citizens, not the people of the USA.

Am I supposed to lie?
Say I support a bullsh!t war because people I know are there? I support THEM! I want to see them have the appropriate armor. I want to know that the hospitals treating them are MOLD FREE AND PROPERLY FUNDED. I want to know that this government ISN'T cutting VA benefits and treats them with respect. I want to know my government had valid reasons for engaging in the last resort- war- has a concrete plan, and an exit strategy. I want to know that these men and women will come home to a strong economy that will guide them back into civilian life. I want them to come home to a society that appreciates all people- not just the rich and white.

I WANT THEM HOME ALIVE NOW.

posted April 30, 2007 11:17 PM         

That is not the point though. The point is that at this time the war is still going on until it is ended one way or another. The point is that since the war is still going on and we have men and women over there fighting this war it does not take anything away from those of us who oppose the war to let those men and women know that while we may not agree on this war we do support them and appreciate the sacrifice they are making. In other words, let them know that while we are against the war, we are not against them.

That is why I titled this post the way I did. I feel that we can debate the politics of the war all we want but the troops who have to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with the politics of the war whatever their viewpoint may be. It was not their decision to invade Iraq or Afghanistan. It's their job and they are following orders. They, like the rest of us, are caught in the middle of the politics of the war.

You and I cannot go out tomorrow and end the war. Neither can the troops. We want them to come home. So do their families and loved ones. They want to come home. However, none of us have the power to decide that.

So it takes nothing away from any of us who are against the Iraq War to let those men and women know that we do care about them. The media is not going to tell them that. No one can tell them that or show them that except us and I feel they need to know, and they need to maybe especially know that those of us who oppose the war are supportive and caring of them.

No one had to be alive during the Vietnam War or when it ended to know the horror stories of how those soldiers were treated by many Americans when they came home. There were no ticker tape parades, no cheering their efforts. Instead they were shunned and called "baby killers" or "murderers." Mainly because that was the first war in history where we actually saw on the evening news every night at dinner time the reality of war. That kind of shattered the John Wayne illusion of war that we saw in the movies.

You don't have to lie about being against the war. I don't and wouldn't lie about it. It's not lying or giving up any of our beliefs to support the troops any way we can. It's letting the people who are having to fight this war know that in spite of my opposition to the war, and even my opposition to the Bush administration, I still support them and appreciate them for what they have to do. I know they are not hearing that from the media. All they know is that popular opinion in the U.S. is opposed to the war. They are left to wonder if that means we oppose them as well.

We can be anti-war but it is ludicrous to be anti-military since every country needs a military. The whole purpose of having a military is to deter war. Not to go out and start wars. Maybe that was not the case here with Iraq and the Bush administration depending on your thinking but that IS the real purpose of the military. The job of the military is to protect their country. For those men and women fighting this war that is what they are doing and it is what they are trained to do. When the President, who is Commander in Cheif, tells them to go and protect America from terrorists, that is what they have to do.

It isn't people of nations who start wars. If that were the case there would never be wars. It's governments who start wars and when they do the people are all caught in the middle of it. Especially those in the military. That is true for both sides. It's just as true for the Iraqi people and the people of Afghanistan as it is for us.

Don't give up the fight to bring the troops home. But in the meantime, until it is over and they can come home, let them know it's not them we are against. That is my point.

posted May 01, 2007 01:20 AM         

There's a marine base not that far from me. No less than 3 people coming back from Iraq have gone off the deepend. One actually lured cops and ambushed them with his assault rifle. Another one just didn't give a flip in that he picked up a prostitute, found out the prostitute was a transvestite and shot him in his car and dumped his body in full view of citizens and police and then shot it out with the police later. Yet another one even made headlines after he began a crosscountry spree of rape and murder and was recorded abducting some unfortunate woman off a Wal-Mart parking lot.

What's this war doing to them? Is it ever over?

I read in Rolling Stone about a guy who sounded to me like he might be the next Timothy McVey as he talked about his fading humanity and growing hatred & contempt for all authority. And in that article the Marines were worried that a distant village might resent their passing so to "be on the safe side" had the village obliterated. ANYONE not a sociopath is going to be scarred from taking part in that. And after a black shroom cloud went up where the village had been (it wasn't nuclear), one came back and shouted, "I just saw 7 people vaporized!"

That night, I dreamed I was walking from the health club I belonged to then when a black shroom cloud went up, and buildings and people were vaporized right in front of me. If reading that article did that to me, what does it do to someone LIVING it?

I don't know if it would do any good, but I THINK that it would PROBABLY be a good idea if some ritual for "rejoining civilian society" were in place to help put the past horrors behind them. And, more importantly, not to bring those horrors they picked up home with them and doing like what those people at the marine base not that far from me have done, or will do years and even decades from now.

Natch, the government can't be expected to do it (and even if the government tried, it would likely be a comedy that wasn't even worth mocking at best). But I have someone I'm close to over in Iraq. When he comes home, musters out, whatever, I hope that I and friends of mine (and his) can come up with a ritual to help him close old psychic wounds (whether or not he recognizes that they exist in him) and "come home" all the way.

posted May 01, 2007 09:08 AM         

You can ask Randall for my e-mail address, if you would please!!!

Thanks!!!!

posted May 01, 2007 10:06 AM         

"When men are silent, the facts cry out." - Cicero

posted May 01, 2007 12:46 PM         

I am not indifferent to what Pidaua is going through, my stepmother has a brother who was sent to Iraq and that weighs heavily on her and her family's hearts. Its always sad to see people go off and have that sense of uncertainty as to if they will come back no matter what side of the fence. I only stayed silent because of past differences and out of common courtesy. I am sorry to Pidaua if that has made things worse and believe it or not, I've only HOPED that Bear comes home safely.

posted May 01, 2007 01:06 PM         

I hope you guys don't think I am saying that you personally are indifferent. I know you aren't. It has been kind of a label or rap hung on those of us who from the beginning opposed this war that we are " against America" and "against the troops." In most cases that was never true. That label is due a President who from the beginning came out and stated " If you aren't with us, you are against us." Not a good thing at all to say in a democracy.

This is one of my reasons for posting this too. So that you guys could have a forum to express how you really feel about the troops and that your being against the war does not mean that you don't sympathize or care about them and their families and loved ones.

posted May 01, 2007 01:14 PM         

That, sadly, has not changed much at all in the last 3 decades since Vietnam. You would think we would have learned something from the Vietnam Vets and their experiences on returning from all the horror they endured there but it doesn't seem we have.

posted May 01, 2007 02:38 PM         

You are entitled to your opinions. As far as wanting troops dead, yes there are people that have stated the troops deserve to die. I referred to them as psychos, not liberals or conservatives.

One only has to look at the Westboro Baptist church that has been protesting Soldier funerals stating "They deserve to die because America is tolerating homosexuality"

There have been several threads about that group and the pain they have caused to Mililtary families by showing up at funerals with their vile signs.

I am sorry you took my reference to "psychos" as a label for any political group.

Mirandee,

You were right about the anxiety that the families feel about the phone call or Soldiers coming to the door with the worst news ever. On the Military wives forum we have wives worried sick at least once a week because the news has broadcast " X number of Soldiers dead after IED explodes in X region" They know their husbands are there, just as I would should I hear of an attack where Bear is based out of. On one such occasion a wife, a friend, was in fear because it happened close to her husbands company. She was waiting for the calls, she waited for 13 hours... she was told her husband was okay, but the other platoon was not.

We try to support each other the best we can. So many women without their husbands in one forum is hard, but I am always amazed by the strength, the pure strength and resolve to NOT give up, to face each day knowing the news may be the worst ever. These women have children, jobs and they are doing it all, without reservation because they know it is necessary. That doesn't mean we all don't complain about certain things, but Military life one that always has its frustrations.

Thank you for acknowledging those that have loved ones deployed in the Mid East. Thank you for starting this thread.

pidaua

posted May 01, 2007 06:05 PM         

The signs they hold at Soldier funerals state "Thank GOD for IED's"

"God Blew up our Troops"

An article from 2005 states:

"Friday, about 15 members of the group -- some of them children -- picketed the funeral of a St. Joseph soldier who was killed in Iraq. Mahoney reported that the group stood across the road from the Grace Evangelical Church during the funeral of 21-year-old Spc. Edward Myers.

"The first sin was being a part of this military. If this young man had a clue and any fear of God, he would have run, and not walked, from this military," said protester Shirley Phelps-Roper. "Who would serve a nation that is godless and has flipped off, defiantly defied, defiantly flipped off, the Lord their God?"

One protester had an American flag tied to his belt that draped to the ground. He was holding a sign that read, "Thank God For IEDs," which are explosive devices used by insurgents to blow up military convoys.

Protesters said America has ignored the word of God, and those who defend the nation must pay a price.

"That's the first piece of solid evidence that you have that the young man is currently in hell," Phelps-Roper said.

"The soldier is in hell now, you believe?" Mahoney asked.

"Absolutely," Phelps-Roper said."

In a 2007 Article the leader of the church is quoted as saying:

"Phelps-Roper said America is "feeling the sword of God" because it is pro-gay. A disapproving God "has become America's terrorist" and is sending soldiers home in body bags as proof, Phelps-Roper said." http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060121/NEWS/601210405

But thank God strong people, like other Soldiers, family members and the Patriot Guard have the guts to face these psycho jerks.

One father of a fallen Soldier said the following ""Kyle is an American hero," he said. "The bigger stir they make, the bigger the hero he becomes. It won't hurt my feelings; we will deal with it. We have a great and caring community here and this is something that is in God's hands."

The Patriot Guard came together as a result of those that protest Soldier funerals. These Veteran motorcyclists stand between the protesters and the families, with their Harley-Davidson engines roaring, to drown out the hate.

For more information about the Westboro group feel free to log onto their home page
www.godhatesamerica.com or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

_____________________________

MK,

I keep thinking about your post and how angry it sounds. I really don't understand the point. It is one thing to slam the war, that is your right- but the anger and quick judgment that NO ONE in this country has ever said they wanted to see troops dead was not supported. I took it as a direct offense to what I said about psychos calling for the deaths. As though you personally went after me based on our past exchanges without even looking into the issue.

Whatever, people like you and statments like the ones you make won't shake my support for our troops or the War. If anything, my support goes stronger on both ends, even with the knowledge I may very well (God forbid)have to attend the funeral of someone I love dearly.

posted May 01, 2007 07:52 PM         

Not only that they teach their children this hatred. To me they are no different than militia groups who were responsible for the Okla. City bombings and the KKK and Neo-Nazis.

They certainly don't represent in any way any kind of religion or spirituality that I have ever heard of which only teaches love.

Very sick and twisted individuals. Very cruel of them to do that to grieving families of soldiers. If anyone is going to hell it would be them.

quote:

---

The Patriot Guard came together as a result of those that protest Soldier funerals. These Veteran motorcyclists stand between the protesters and the families, with their Harley-Davidson engines roaring, to drown out the hate.

---

LOL that has to be a sight. If you come across a picture of that post it here, Pid. Wouldn't want to ever mess with a bunch of guys on Harleys.

posted May 01, 2007 08:41 PM         

I attempted to word my response so that it couldn't be taken as a personal attack on anyone, and specifically not towards you. I do not have the time nor the energy to hold a cyber-grudge towards anyone for what they may have posted in the past. My post was more of a response to Mirandee's original post.

The anger in my post comes from a deep vein of futility and hopelessness that I hold inside about this entire situation- the war, the loss of lives, the danger that people I know and care about are dealing with daily.

I am angry, and I think more people need to get angry and start holding our government accountable for this fiasco.

I am aware of the psychos protesting outside funerals. IMO, their communal religious obsession has nothing to do with the war, and all about their personal agenda of extremism and intolerance. They use the war- and our troops- as a misguided, twisted "justification" for their delusions.

If there was no war, it would be some other atrocity to exploit.

Does this make it easier to bear? Absolutely not. It's horrid. But this is hardly the majority of Americans.

There have been plenty of accusations made in LL that liberals don't care, we support terrorists, we are morons for not supporting the war.

I believe it is possible to NOT support this government's actions, and still care about the individuals who are risking their lives.

My words are not meant to "shake your support of the troops."

Good grief, why would I bother? I have nothing vested in your opinions, your choices, your lifestyle. Please don't read my posts and make an assumption I am trying to convince you of anything. Its a discussion, not a battle. No one wins, no one loses- we all have our own realities.
I wish you and your loved ones the same as I wish all people- peace, love, and safety.

When you lump me as "whatever, people like you and statements like the ones you make.." it feels belittling and insulting.

I give you credit for your thoughts and opinions as an individual, regardless if I do not share them.

Peace to you-

posted May 01, 2007 08:53 PM         

Here's a link to pics of the Patriod Guard Riders in Maryland..
http://www.patriotguard.org/photos/listpics.asp?dir=Maryland%5CCPL+Justin+Watts+Crownsville+MD

and one from Arizona
http://www.patriotguard.org/photos/listpics.asp?dir=Arizona%5CWelcome+Home+Nov+12%2C+2006

Patriot Guard Riders Mission Statement

The Patriot Guard Riders is a diverse amalgamation of riders from across the nation. We have one thing in common besides motorcycles. We have an unwavering respect for those who risk their very lives for America’s freedom and security. If you share this respect, please join us.

We don’t care what you ride or if you ride, what your political views are, or whether you’re a hawk or a dove. It is not a requirement that you be a veteran. It doesn't matter where you’re from or what your income is; you don’t even have to ride. The only prerequisite is Respect.

Our main mission is to attend the funeral services of fallen American heroes as invited guests of the family. Each mission we undertake has two basic objectives.

1. Show our sincere respect for our fallen heroes, their families, and their communities.

2. Shield the mourning family and their friends from interruptions created by any protestor or group of protestors.

We accomplish the latter through strictly legal and non-violent means.

To those of you who are currently serving and fighting for the freedoms of others, at home and abroad, please know that we are backing you. We honor and support you with every mission we carry out, and we are praying for a safe return home for all.
www.patriotguard.org

posted May 01, 2007 11:00 PM         

There is a place for protests and in a democracy, non-violent protests are a way the voice of American citizens can and should be heard. However, funerals of fallen soldiers is not the place to hold any kind of protest or any kind demonstration.

That's not only disrespectful of the dead but it is disrespectful of the feelings of the loved ones of that soldier. Very bad taste and most reputable anti-war groups would not do such a thing.

For that reason I support the efforts and the mission of the Patriot Guard. I also like that they do in legally and non-violently.

posted May 02, 2007 01:44 AM         

The whole premise of their protesting is based on their hatred towards homosexuality. How can any claim to be a part of a Christian movement and discriminate against a whole people? It's a sad thing.

Fortunately, like you said before, they make up only a small portion of the population.