posted June 11, 2007 01:22 PM         

Children can be so fragile, (I am learning this with my own little quintuple Cancerian at home!!! ) - just one flippant word of criticism can affect them adversely for many, many years to come. Equally - false praise can also sometimes inflate a child's ego far beyond what it should be for a particular talent. For example, some of the contestants auditioning for shows such as Pop Idol/American Idol - they can't sing a jot, but someone in the family has told them that they can to spare feelings and so therefore, the kid lacks self awareness, because their relative was not truthful with them. It is so hard for a parent to get the balance right on that one! It's always risky trying to walk the tightrope between being truthful, but overly critical with your child or wrapping the kid up in cotton wool. Either extreme can be damaging in the long run.

And the problems with self esteem only seem to be magnified during our teenage years, where hormones and peer pressure take over and fitting in is everything. (Ok, not EVERYTHING - there are always some kids about with higher natural self esteem than others, that seem to side-step most of the usual teenage issues with finesse, but it's still rare). Most teenagers look to their peers for acceptance and validation that they too, are normal, (or whatever the key word of their particular crew is!) The teenage world can be a competitive and dangerous place - bound to cause a few tears and tantrums at times.

But it's NECESSARY. Necessary for us to grow, and realise, that we alone are the only one's who can make ourselves truly happy with ourselves! Yes, of course people can knock our confidence with their cruel words or nasty actions. But it's always eventually up to us to love ourselves enough to lead a happy life. I'm not sure it's possible to live a truly fulfilling life if you're not happy with yourself to some degree. Fighting off arrogance and battling self loathing are crucial (and sometimes daily) struggles for most of us, if we are to enjoy good self esteem - defined primarily by ourselves. (I'm not sure yet, if it's entirely possible to not succumb the feelings that other people's issues with us, have on us, (if that makes any flipping sense!) - I'll let you know when I'm on my deathbed.

So yes - I think self esteem DOES need to be defined by others. But only at first.....

posted June 12, 2007 02:57 AM         

Yes, those adolescent years are very important. How to un-learn the effects our environments placed on us growing up? Easier said than done!

Meanwhile, we can keep listening to

Nature= true tune.

posted June 12, 2007 04:30 AM         

Julie was a lonely girl
She said she was born that way
She always felt that way
She left home at age sixteen
Got a job what you're supposed to do
That's what you've got to do
She fell in love and settled down
In a council place there on the edge of town
She'd feel alone in a crowded room
Cry when she heard a happy tune
It would be nice to holiday
Till they took her job away
They just took her life away
And doing nothing isn't fun
When you've nothing from which to run
Nowhere left to run
She'd visit the social every day
Every time be turned away
Every time be turned away
A hundred stairs to her new room
Over glass and blackened spoons
Children grow old so soon
Past the kids who gather there
Pain masked by narcotic stares
But no one really cares
Her dreams were cut up and bled dry
A million voices in her cry
Julie waits, her world is her windows
And Julie hates, just what she doesn't know
And Julie hates, she hates the world below
But Julie loves,
She loves too much to know

posted June 12, 2007 09:13 AM         

QUOTE: But it's always eventually up to us to love ourselves enough to lead a happy life. I'm not sure it's possible to live a truly fulfilling life if you're not happy with yourself to some degree. Fighting off arrogance and battling self loathing are crucial (and sometimes daily) struggles for most of us, if we are to enjoy good self esteem - defined primarily by ourselves.

Hit the nail right on the head for me!!!

Now thats something to " REFLECT " on!!!!

posted June 12, 2007 09:18 AM         

LOVELY!!!

posted June 12, 2007 12:13 PM         

Someone once reminded me to be gentle with myself.
At the time, their words really struck me, because I realized when I thought about it, that it was something that I hadn't even considered. Oh, I can do that?
That blind-sided me,realizing that about myself-- that it had never been a thought.

I've been thinking, about how more likely suicide occurs to individuals who are the most kind, considerate and giving to others, and therefore thinking of other's feelings with empathy as they do,would find it more difficult to place that burden on anyone...or believe they were also as deserving to be cared for or receive the compassion that they so give.

Last night, I heard a friend of a friend hung herself.
It was the usual story you hear "she loved everyone, was always there to give a hug or kindness or care. She gave so much of her time to charities, etc."
No one foresaw.

If someone is vocal about suicidal thoughts it's indicative that there is at least a bit of faith left that others might care, that the things they struggle could be empathized or understood and its also still indicative of some confidence in being received by others and cared for in some way.
That's the whole point--suicide is of crippling isolation. The ones that actually carry through lose their voice and hope and aren't the most likely to be able to find a way to reach out and say what they are suffering openly.

I wonder if this woman might have tried to give clues of her sorrow to someone or struggled to find courage to open herself to someone she trusted and loved, and if perhaps there was no recognition or response when she needed it the most, she gave up hope entirely.

I think the ones who are enduringly kind and quiet about it, may be the ones who search for meaning in this world the most and find themselves struggling with faith that such beauties are significant here. So often is their love and understanding taken for granted and their givings unrecognized until they aren't anymore.

Anyway, that article was timely, thanks.
Sorry for bringing down the vibe of this thread, just some things I've been thinking about.

posted June 12, 2007 04:15 PM         

Do you think that people who search for meaning in life and feel everything so deeply are more susceptible to such feelings...suicidal feelings? It is very interesting to me. I think I have only known, personally one truly 'melancholic' soul, she was a good friend of mine- we went our own separate ways but stay in touch....I think on the whole she is ok now, but yes, she is a deeply sensitive person (mind you, her childhood traumas were mostly to blame, I'd say)....I haven't known anyone else like that. The people who are closest to me now all tell me that depression is nothing more than self-pity....that people who are healthy, etc should be grateful for what they've got....but judgmental attitudes tend to make me angry.

(edit)

I'm rambling here....I had better go and take a bath...my youngest was awake last night so I had better get to bed earlier tonight...if I can make myS-elf....the brain is difficult to switch of!

posted June 13, 2007 08:44 AM         

But if what you are really asking is do we need to be validated in oreder to be judged as good human beings, then I think the answer is no.

posted June 13, 2007 10:24 PM         

quote:

---

Is there a way to have great self-esteem, no matter what other people think about you? Even if everyone hates you?

---

I don't get much self-esteem out of 'praise' from others. I get more self-esteem out of things I can do or things I have done.. such as scholastic achievements, anything I've done sports wise that I wasn't able to do - say last year - improvements like that.. That's what gives me confidence.

So yes there is a way.. You need to realize that your deeds and actions speak a lot more for the person you are - than anything being said.

This isn�t to say � 'be blind to what other people believe' - If every single person you know "hates" you chances are there is something you're not doing quite right.. Maybe you're treating people wrongly or disrespectfully.. Maybe you come across as a snob or as a hypocrite.. Who knows? It's good to actually talk to people when they *truly* have an issue with you so you find out why.. We can all change for the better..

On the other hand, there are people who get mean for the sake of being mean or because they have their own self-esteem deficiencies.. Don't bother with those. There's a world of difference between honest and constructive criticism and.. people throwing insults at you.

Also, if a person 'hates' another.. that feeling of hatred will be more harmful to themselves than the object of 'hate'. The 'haters' of the world, need to build up self-esteem as well, so they don't feel the need to hate and begrudge others.

quote:

---

There is a great need in most people to interact with others- because it's natural..

---

I enjoy interacting with others.. I think it's a part of life that we interact and care for one another.. but this interaction shouldn't come from 'neediness' - It should come from affection and a want to bond with the next person..

quote:

---

is it possible to be a loner and be perfectly happy?

---

There's an irony here.. If you are a loner *and* perfectly happy being a loner, you won't be a loner for long.. lol because everyone is attracted to genuine happiness.

posted June 13, 2007 10:36 PM         

I expect myself to do a million things and if I don't I'm more likely to blame myself than be compassionate in any way.. That doesn't involve other people though..

quote:

---

Self-esteem: does it necessarily need to be defined by what others think of you?

---

My answer to this is "NO".

but.. if you were to ask "Self-compassion: does it necessarily need to be defined by what you THINK (or 'expect') of you?"

posted June 14, 2007 02:37 AM         

quote:

---

what is the forgiving acceptance of yourself ? can you elobrate ?

---

posted June 14, 2007 04:57 AM         

I have been thinking more and more what has been said here that we need to balance our self love; not to be vain or arrogant...certainly not to be self-depreciating or self-loathing, but to love ourselves, to real-eyes we all play a part; equally belonging; equally important....

Easier said than done!

But it can be done!

I feel as if, all my life, I have been climbing a mountain, desperately trying to reach that sweet and harmonious balance!

posted June 14, 2007 05:22 AM         

For the need for friends may be great, but I feel the need for personal freedom, of how to think, be, etc- is greater....

That's why I looked into a particular church where my parents met but left after divorcing when I was a baby, that's why I looked into it when I was 13, and left again at 14 even though I was under immense pressure at the time to stay. That's why a few bitchy crowds at school never liked me- they could tell I was different- I wasn't interested in bitching but listened to my heart (though I must say, I wish I could go right back and do my school years over again, this time without feeling painfully shy!).....That's why I became a goth later on (to begin with I did this ALONE, then later met others), got a bit interested in Wicca but decided it wasn't for me (I could have made more friends if I had pursued it more, I could have really 'belonged'...but it wasn't for me)....That's why I stopped being a goth the minute I felt fed up with it, loosing that feeling of being a part of that crowd as I did with the church, etc.....That's why I got involved with an animal rights group I passionately believed in, but the minute I questioned whether their behaviour was effective for the cause or not, I left, AGAIN, THIS MEANT THAT I NO lONGER "BELONGED" TO THIS PARTICULAR CROWD.......If it wasn't for my free-spirited, non-conforming nature, I wouldn't even be here, in LL!

Uranus in the 10 house is cool, but SOMETIMES it MAKES life feel like 'crippling isolation'.

Oh, and after leaving the last crowd, I shortly became pregnant (with the same man I have been with for 7 years, but we can't live together due to being opposite zodiac signs and opposite body clocks- he works nights- etc, long story!), but I had been moving around a lot until then and only recently got my own place. I feel lonely, in a sense (I have my kids and their father)...a part of me is shy because I think people judge you, around here, by your social 'class' etc....but I don't think it will always be this way- it just takes time to 'settle'- more so when you are less extroverted or rooted than others!....But it is not as easy to socialize as a parent of a toddler or two, for one thing you have to run off to supervise them constantly whenever you try to become absorbed in a nice chat...my two boys both seem dynamic and energetic so they are never still.

But now I'm rambling.......

posted June 14, 2007 02:41 PM         

Even the most confident adult individual will become meek and lose himself when he is subjected to disapproval every second. You can break an individual, no matter how strong his personality is. Just takes time.

Human are social animals. They need to be with a group. To feel connected, approved of.

posted June 14, 2007 04:38 PM         

Recently I have been thinking about 'man's never-ending quest for true happiness, pondering the meaning of it all.....can true happiness ever be a permanent state whilst in this realm? I don't think so. I think, while we are here, we will always be subject to SEASONS.

And self-esteem.....perhaps is the same; subject to the seasons of the body-temple's environment.

One most fundamental teaching of Buddhist philosophy: nothing in life is permanent; we are all subject to these ever-changing seasons of life......everything here is ultimately transient. (Hehe, I saw the sory on the news about those monks at the station who made a picture out of sand which took days, they had to complete it entirely before
gathering it to throw into the sea for a kind of symbolic ceremony regarding transience....but a toddler came over and messed it up to the horror of his mum who ran off incognito style.....anyway, they had to start it all over again But they said they weren't cross).