posted November 03, 2008 03:57 PM         

Basically, she doesn't want to share her house with anyone, as she didn't when my father and I were living there, and it seems that the personality traits that were prevalent during my childhood haven't gone away; they simply haven't been expressed for a long while, since she has no-one around her to express them to.

She does seem to hate me intrinsically (even though I thought lately we got on well - I might have known it was too good to be true - I just can't trust her) and I think that she's one of those people who looks at people as scapegoats for her unexpressed abusive emotions if she feels they are dependent on her in any way - she has a very Fixed chart that I feel underlines this. If I moved back I would definetely be a scapegoat, because somehow I represent something that is challenging to her at the deepest level. I don't know why this is, although I do know (and have known since I was 5 years old) that she cannot handle a simple difference of opinion (however civilized), or a debate, easily without it degenerating into some kind of conflict, so it's likely that her emotional intelligence may be low. She is very controlling and oppressive and adores animals (as she has the power of absolute control over them and they do not have the words to disagree with her, so are therefore "better" than humans). I know that if I were to move back with her I would feel suffocated; it's just the principle of not wanting to share her more than adequate resources that gets to me - the unadulterated greed and disregard for other people. It's the principle that she seems to think she can behave however she likes and people will still come back to her.

When I was growing up she used to say things to me like "You need me. I don't need you" (Okay. I was hardly a thief or an arsonist, for Christ's sake!); another time she said "I'd rather have animals than have you" and when I said at 16 that I was desperate for a boyfriend, she said "If you want sex so much, you'll have to become a wh*re". I was saying to her today that my situation was not an easy one and was not being made easier as I was receiving no help, and she said cheerfully, "oh well, life is tough".

I am sick of the lack of genuinely useful or heartfelt support. I have mulled and mulled her behaviour over and I have come to the conclusion that she is actually mentally ill, and that seems to make this whole situation easier for me to cope with. The trouble is that because she's pretty my dad (divorced from her) has always held a candle for her, and he either denies there is anything wrong or dismisses what I say with the explanation that "she's always been the same" (he is easily impressed with cute looks, no matter how nasty the personality underneath may be). Unfortunately I think she has often encouraged him to behave in a similar way to her - she has continually badmouthed us to each other in order to keep us apart, since she is jealous of our good relationship.

Her behaviour has attracted concern from both sides of our family, because she never ever goes to see any of them (makes excuses not to - instead spends long hours on long-distance phone calls - they also usually phone her, she does not phone them).

I have never ever come across anyone as unwilling to give of herself or interact with anyone, or be as deliberately petulant and childish as my mother. People are appalled when I tell them about her, but, as I said, she has very obvious intrinsic mental illness. Perhaps unsurprisingly, she also has no friends, outside her family circle (she chats with my aunt perhaps weekly, and that's it). She also has a very precisely similar routine each day. She spends a lot of time in bed, and has had long-term anorexia and protracted depression in the past. I can't get over the sense of entitlement she has to a 4-bedroom house and the like - she has not done anything towards it and has not been supportive of my father over the years in any way (whilst expecting him to provide everything). One part of me wants to say "go to hell, I'm never speaking to you again" and the other half wants to (if I can't find a place to live) bring all my stuff home, dump it in her garage and wilfully squat in a tepee on her front lawn.

I don't understand how people like her manage to wangle themselves maintenance from quite simply doing nothing (I can't understand what satisfaction they get from doing nothing - it can't be good for their pride), and being as nasty as possible, whereas I have been running around trying to get the show on the road regarding my career in one way or another, and have had zero support from various key people around me (I have had one hell of a lot to deal with this year, and over the past couple of months experienced an acute nervous breakdown - although it could be that I am gradually on the up now). I am trying my hardest and am exhausted.

I was talking about this whole situation with a Scorp friend (Aqua/Pisces Moon) the other day (who prayed for me - I can't tell you how moved I was by someone praying for me) and she reckons the best thing to do is simply not to communicate with people that are like this. I've tried it before with my mother, but I got ill from the repressed anger, and attracted people that were similar in her place; I think the best way forward this time round is to only meet up or converse when it's absolutely necessary, because she riles me so much.

However, I think that my mother is genuinely incapable of giving real love as a mother should. She claims that she had a bad time growing up herself and seems to want to make it as bad for me as it was for her (actually, in retrospect, I think her own mother (Cancer, Pisces moon) was much more caring than she was, and had to go through a war besides). I think it's worth while to recognize when a parent does have very obvious mental health problems, because it absolves us from thinking we are able to do anything about it, because we can't, and we can't make the wish that they were better real. We can, however, make things more comfortable and acceptable for ourselves. I'd like to know what you think.

Also, has anyone specifically had problems with Sag parents (I'm thinking of the Beethoven/Britney syndrome here - great people in their field, I'm sure, and well-loved by public, but lousy for offspring/adopted offspring's mental health outlook, and prone to riding roughshod over others' emotions without provocation and as though that were their right)?

I am really not keen on my parents' generation (the "Beatles" generation). I feel as though there is something wrong with them generally. Anyone else feel the same way?

posted November 03, 2008 07:07 PM         

Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in your struggles.

posted November 09, 2008 06:05 PM         

Sometimes as hard as it is, you just have to say good-bye once and for all. Not all mother's truly love their children. Or had them for the right reasons.

I have all I can do to heal myself now. It seems like she goes out of her way to **** it all up or make it harder - every single time, to keep her story going. It's really scary. So I have had to say good bye.

Healing Light to you both.

posted November 10, 2008 04:23 AM         

The worst bit was after I made it clear that I was happy living with Granny (which I did during the final parts of Mom & Dad’s divorce), Mom still had the courts force me to live with her just so she could get child support. Even when I ranaway from home she wouldn’t report me for fear of losing it. Natch, she spent that child support on her addictions instead of on me. I knew hunger and learned to crash at other people’s homes in large part just to eat and ignore the worst of her temper tantrums when the booze and cigarettes ran out toward the end of the month.

Back in 2004 (just before I turned 22) I went back to visit both ‘rents, having not seen either of them since I was 16 (and ranaway from home for the 2nd time). Things went ok, but I saw that there was no point in trying to establish a relationship. I just don’t mean anything to them. There’s no point and I’m not even going to try unless one of them reaches out to me first. Most of the time it’s simply just a fact of life, though there are rare times that this makes me sad for a short while.

For the most part, I’ve just met people like that, like an insane counselor at a high school inflicted on me (who ironically was in charge in dealing with the emotional problems & mental illnesses of others!), but since an adult I’ve just pushed people like that away. I can share quite a few stories of personal encounters, some that still irk me and others that I think I handled ok. My favorite one is where my last words to one who demanded my time was, “Ma’am, I know you’ve been hurt and done dirty by others, but I’m not like those people who’ve hurt you. I’m much, MUCH worse than them.”

Personally, I think you shouldn’t have anything to do with her. Maybe you’ve never been homeless as I have, so that scares you (and it should), but I still think it’s better than staying with your mom, especially as she’ll not only make it hard for you to get on your feet again, she’ll likely sabotage any effort for you to do so. I expect she’s allowing you to move in for no other reason than for the drama and/or to punish someone in her power. There’s no way you can win against someone like that. As the saying goes, don’t get into a mud slinging contest with a pig, you’ll just get yourself muddy and the pig will just love it.

As for your “Beatles generation" question, I don’t sense anything wrong with them in particular. Every generation has its narcissists, and because that’s a boomer gen that hasn’t gotten too old yet, there will be a lot more of them, and that’s agitated by the standard practice of older generations thinking they’re better than the newer generations. Still, there are many people, in all gens (including teens & preteens), that I’m very glad to know.

posted November 10, 2008 08:47 AM         

I had a strange relationship with my mother.
My brother was killed in a road accident when he was 7 and I was 4.
For years she found it impossible to show me any affection (completely understandable).
I lived alone in a house with parents who were frozen with grief.
I was an only child till I was 11 when she had my sister who she doted on and was always much closer to.

But here's the thing. I adored my mother and I adore my sister.
I think we should stop blaming parents.
They do the best they can. Sometimes it's bloody awful
To quote the poet Philip Larkin

"They f***s you up your Mum and Dad"

But when you are older get over it.
When I came back from S.Africa my mother hated the fact that I had to initially move in with her and basically pushed me out the moment she could.
But why should she have had to put up with me?
I was a grown woman and albeit in a bit of a bind but still capable of taking responsibility for my own **** ups.

What is it they always say about Cancerians?
Stop trying to crawl back into the womb!

If your parents were hateful, learn from it and thank God you will not do the same to your kids.

posted November 10, 2008 09:06 AM         

But they were f***** up in their turn
By fools in old style hats and coats
Who half the time were soppy stern
And half at one anothers throats.

Man hands on misery to man
It deepens like a coastal shelf
Get out as early as you can
And don't have any kids yourself!

posted November 10, 2008 08:36 PM         

It certainly does sound like your mother has the hallmarks of a BPD individual. Having read just about everything there is on the topic, to try to diagnose my own wacked out mother, I can tell you I've become a pseudo expert. Walking on Eggshells, by the way, is one of the classic books on BPD which was a good initial read. Understanding the Borderline Mother by Lawson is even better, IMHO.

I have to say, though, that despite some horrible memories from my childhood and young adulthood, all related to my mother, she seems to have miraculously done a 180 since my father's death. The dynamics have changed unbelievably. It's like she lost her main ally so she had to start acting much better towards me. Very unsettling at first to see how she turned, but life is better now for me.

I will say this about a BPD parent: teaching them a lesson will not give you the satisfaction you're looking for, because it never has the effect you think it will. BPD people have a way of protecting themselves in their own version of reality. They will turn your lesson around on you.

So maybe don't waste your psychic energy on seeking revenge. Maybe, Xena, just learn to be OK with letting go. Realize she's a very sick person. You don't have to let her share your life out of pity for her. But don't waste your energy getting back at her.

It would have been nice if every parent fit the template, but life is not that for all of us. Thankfully we can surround ourselves with normal people of our own choosing, if we can just let go of the notion that our parents/siblings will fulfil all of our needs.

posted November 10, 2008 11:12 PM         

i really know what you have to go through. yea, i think she loves her dogs more than me. yea, i think i'm just part of her own being. yea i think she will persuade me to kill myself and then when i'm dead blame me for making her unhappy. yet she is so emotionally dependant on me, despite she acts as if she doesn't need me. i'm feeling, in a way, relieved, to have read your post actually, because i've been suffering my whole life, and i actively tried to figure out all alone since i was a teenager, because "something" was terribly wrong and i just didn't know what. it's been a REAL LONG journey... i feel terrible to say this, and normally i just look to the future and think that there is no use in regretting the past, but it is true that she has literally smothered me and my chances and ruined my life in the way that she has manipulated my life to be the way it is now.

i know it is IMPOSSIBLE to escape unless i cut any relation to my own mother and become a stranger, but that is not possible so i have to learn to compromise. and it is not easy, i think it's impossible. the only temporary solution is to just live as far away as possible from her, which i've always done. conveniently she brought me up separated from anyone of my family members and relatives, so basically she's my only family. when i was younger i thought i could change her, but it only hurts me. as a teenager, i hated her and wrote wrote wrote, thinking that i'd publish it and let the world know and prove how wrong she was. but at the same time she was my world and she was like the god. when i think of it now she had completely brainwashed me and it was as if a religious cult. it was not normal, at all. she herself lives in her own world, in a house filled with things she can't throw away. a very strange person. and as your mother, she kicked out her husband and she would not be able to really share her own living space. her first husband, my father, never has any positive things to say about her, if he ever speaks of her.

incredible, huh? i'm STILL suffering from symptoms caused by this whole experience. i've been recommended to take medication to make my daily life easier, but i'm not sure, i want to fix it from the root, if i can. but i probably can't. she stands in the way of my doing everything. i've recovered very much compared to the time when it was the worst. i'm closer to how i was when i was still unaffected as a child. but it's still as if there is another me who opposes the true me inside.

i dunno, i think i have to thank you for posting this... it wasn't something i could talk about with anyone. i felt guilty for blaming my mother, and also people just simply would not understand this peculiar situation, at all. it would only frustrate me. i feel like i have a new perspective on how to deal with this... don't know how, but i feel lighter that there is someone who understands what my life has been like.

Jugular is right, it will only hurt yourself trying to get back at her. i've been there, numerous times, my entire life. and i know (though easier said) the way to deal with it is to "know" that she is sick. i used to believe, for years, that it was ME who was sick. my mother also thinks that i'm sick. but it's HER, it's HER problem, and you also have to know how to protect yourself from a sick person. of course, it's hard to think that my mother is sick, because as long as i go with the flow she is a normal loving mother. but i have to treat her as an ill person and not take everything at the face value. because i thought "I" was sick, and because i took everything she created as reality, it has RUINED my life!! i was an intelligent art student with a bright future, went to a famous art university with scholarship, had many talents and chances, but i burned out trying to deal with my "problem", succumbed to my fears, worsened my phobias, and everything went down the drain.

luckily i'm still 30. i still have the future and try to get back on the right track. thought it's still incredibly hard, i now know that i have to count my mother out of the picture to live my own life. you should too. she is still your mother, but i'm not sure living with her is a good idea at all. you can love your mother without being with her. i still don't know how she functions in the society, and there are tons of things about my childhood and her life that is a total mystery to me. but i've stopped trying to find out, because i realized it was only a waste of time, and i was really damaging me.

posted November 11, 2008 10:18 PM         

i knew as a knowledge because once a psychiatrist told me about narcissistic mothers, but actually, especially because in the region of the world where my mother lives, psychiatric awareness isn't much advanced as in the US, it just never clicked with me the actuality of it... i could never really see mother as someone sick before being my mother.

though on the internet, discovering someone else who actually have the experience was eye-opening for me... i woke up this morning and felt all different. can you imagine what a breakthrough this is for me? now i can view everything through the right glasses.

everyone who had this experience here, i hope for the best and you are not having so much negative effect on your life as it happened to me.

Xena, i think really the best way is to detach and not build up anger inside you. i know how that goes like no one else, and i know it was a terrible time for me. it only prevented my life from progressing. i know it feels like an impossible thing to do...

as for the astrological factors, i'm not sure if it's something to do with Sagittarius parents specifically? personally i'm a Sagi and not planning to have children because of my negative experience as a child. me and my Aquarius mother have very strong Jupiter-moon aspects. Jupiter is my chart ruler. Also our Composite forms a very clean Kite involving all the planets except Venus. I've never seen a Composite like this before (though my experience isn't much). i've never really looked into our synastry and composite because i've always avoided to, but it's a good opportunity so i think i'll look into it... i also have my moon in my 4th house at the South Node in my natal, opposing Pluto, which is at the tip of my natal Kite (Pluto is conjunct my North Node).