posted January 16, 2009 10:13 PM            

I don't want to see abortion criminalized because many countries and ESPECIALLY the USA are NOT reasonable when it comes to prohibition. Once it's criminalized, there will be a Pregnancy Enforcement Agency that brutally interrogates those who suffered miscarriage as homicide suspects, rape victims will be kept confined and isolated for fear of what she'll (and those close to her) do to the fetus within her, and eventually outlaw wire coat hangers, putting some granny in prison for 20 years because they found some old dusty hangers in her attic she didn't think to get rid of (just before they outlaw knitting needles). All the while, underground abortion will thrive, as will legal abortion outside the USA that Americans with more money go to (at least until THAT is outlawed, too).

That is, the People and the Government will be as stupid and useless and counterproductive as always, and a cure worse than the disease itself. We endure enough of that stupidity already without adding more.

I know better sex ed would stop a lot of sex, and even more abortions, but how can schools teach that? There's too many political groups against it, and even many parents wish to protect their children by keeping them ignorant (and calling that ignorance "education"). They seem to believe that if kids don't ever hear sex mentioned, that it won't occur to them, and that if they don't hear about predators and the like that the predators won't know about their kids anymore than the kids know about them. Both are baffling concepts to me, but seem far too common with predictable results.

But once kids don't trust them, or worse learn that some of what they told were lies meant to scare them into abstinence (and they WILL find out--and for what they'll do after that, see the tale, "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" as they ignore the REAL dangers along with the lies), then they'll go about learning about it on their own. They don't need the media or anyone else to make them think of it, they'll do that on their own.

posted January 17, 2009 09:15 AM            

------------------
Out of clutter find simplicity.

From dischord find harmony.

In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.

posted January 18, 2009 12:30 AM              

quote:

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I have a hard time imagining abortion used as casual birth control, given the pain and danger of it (one can die of complications from having had an abortion weeks later, not just while getting one). Especially now that Plan B pills are available, even in the USA, OTC.

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posted January 18, 2009 10:18 AM              

She and my cousin had a 6 month old daughter who was born with her left hand missing. prenatal tests had indicated there might be something wrong but the doctor admitted it was a possibility and there was no clarity in the test.

When the baby was thus born with a hand missing they were both obviously heartbroken - not with the extra efffort or money she was going to need. They couldnt bear to think what her life was going to be like. Watching her live day after day as a disabled person , as a child among other children in school who are normal. The mother wrote in her suicide note that the pain of imagining her daughters life and the hardships she will have to endure were what drove her to end her life

At first i was sad ..but later as i saw my cousin , destroyed at the loss of his companion , and that his daughter will have to grow up without a mothers love...i couldnt stop feeling a tinge of dismay at her escapism. she left her baby to her husband, she couldnt bear to see her baby suffer so she killed herself - not thinking how she would suffer a 100 times more without her mother - and with a father hurting for his love lost.

i really find it paradoxical when parents want to abort children who are disabled. I for one, KNOW they wouldnt have the heart to throw the baby in the sewer if the disability was revealed post birth.Somehow the whole Choice Propoganda leads them to think its okay to terminate a bag of cells but not a baby ?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_e1d3Eyy580g/R_v8DIRJp6I/AAAAAAAAAJA/PqKlNmyTpqk/s1600-h/aborted_9_week_fetus.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_e1d3Eyy580g/R_v7x4RJp5I/AAAAAAAAAI4/NZz_cEcbuv0/s1600-h/Baby21Weeks.jpg

posted January 18, 2009 11:43 PM            

But it is not as simple as just that, with all the issues of our "civilized" society.

Indeed there are plenty of agendas surrouding abortion and child adoption.

I have never had one. I would not abort even before the 12th week of pregnancy as I believe the astral consciousness may arrive at the uterus sooner than twelve weeks. I would not abort a fetus with disablities as I perceive this as the unborn baby's karma and the shared karma of the parents. A child with disabilities face the karma to live a challenging and yet constructive life, to conquer his/her afflictions and turn those into miracles. I would not abort even if the child is the result of rape or incest.

However...if the pregnancy endangers the mother's life, this becomes a tricky issue. The woman certainly has the right to choose to stay alive. In that case, abortion should be readily available to her.

Therefore, abortion should be made legal, to minimize underground practices. Sex education is obviously insufficient to this day. Remember Linda wrote in "Star Signs" about such sex education? She wrote that love procedes sex, and we should teach our children about love before we teach them the facts about sex. I think we should teach youngsters responsibility. Moral education parallels with sex education. I am not suggesting scare tactics with "Bible quotes"- that is very nonsensical and even comical to me. Even adults may need to raise their awareness on responsible, safe sex. They need to incorporate a healthy attitude toward sex while having their sex lives.

If only legal abortion was available to the general population and at the same time we could avoid abusing such medical service by being irresponsible for our sex lives.

Both men and women should educate themselves on birth control, some of whom may even study techniques from ancient teachings about avoiding conception while having sex.

Basically, I do not support abortion, even though I would not interfere with others who decide to have one. I would not go on protesting for outlawing abortion, either. But I personally do not condone abortion, as to me, once the spermatozoid has penetrated the ovum, a human life has emerged.

Just my two cents.

D

posted January 19, 2009 12:35 AM              

quote:

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I want to carefully and clearly explain my theory, based on several factors, science, logic, auras, souls, miscarriage rates and so forth. I have had 27 confirmed naturally lost pregnancies, and one live birth.

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posted January 19, 2009 07:05 AM            

a couple of questions (if that's ok)
was it just a lack of hand or were there other complications (e.g. mental/learning difficulties)?
was no support offered from medical establishments e.g. did they not get them in touch with some sort of support group?

i find this aspect of the subject difficult because of the direct personal experience I had working with young adults in FE who had profound and multiple learning difficulties. many of them were quite severely physical as well as mentally disabled. we knew some had quite obvious responses and enjoyment of certain things, whilst others we had little idea. but it was our job to provide them with mental and physical stimulation, company and love. each of them had a distinct personality and it was so interesting getting to know them in that way. i can't imagine what it must be like to have to cope on a daily basis with a severly disabled child - the parents we met were just so grateful for the chance we gave their children, and also the natural support which arose from such an environment. that is why i am so torn - because they were (and some still are..) living and breathing humans. they were so loved and cherished. i honestly believe the world would be a worse place without them - there is no such thing as perfection and i object quite deeply to the idea that its 'better for them not to be born'. i don't consider that a decision to be made by me.

anyway, this is getting a bit long. just to add, in our local town there is an excellent jeweller who has no hands - on either arm, and yet manages to make the most incredible jewellery. we are given life and we are given these bodies in all their pain and glory - there was one boy i used to work with who was born 'normal' but after an accident which meant his breath was restricted for that little bit too long ended up 'disabled'.

------------------
Out of clutter find simplicity.

From dischord find harmony.

In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.

posted January 19, 2009 08:12 AM              

quote:

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was it just a lack of hand or were there other complications (e.g. mental/learning difficulties)?

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posted January 19, 2009 09:57 PM            

According to Samuel Sagan, M.D. , some Indian masters had said that the soul of the baby arrives around the fourth month of the pregnancy (roughly the 12th week as LEXX has indicated) and that's when the mother starts having cravings, which is a sign showing that the astral consciousness has arrived in the unborn child in the womb. However, Dr Sagan also mentioned in his book "Entity Possession" (initially published in Australia under the title "Entities, Parasites of the Body of Energy") that such a theory is quite ancient and sometimes a pregnant woman would have cravings in the first month of pregnancy, indicating the particular soul/astral consciousness may have already arrived during the first month of the pregnancy, proving the aforementioned theory to be invalid.

I think a large part of the given topic remains a mystery yet to be solved by humankind, and it is not one to be understood with the analytical faculty. In Dr Sagan's another book, "Regression: Past-Life Therapy for Here and Now Freedom", one of his cases even reported having arrived in his mother's uterus but already having the desire of not to be born, not to live in the physical realm; yet the client's mother obviously did not abort him. On the pros and cons of abortion, and when the astral consciousness arrives at the womb, why and how, most of us only have our own speculations or partial, incomplete, biased evidence. As far as I'm concerned, there are souls in one of the astral realms waiting to incarnate, to be born, and while a man and a woman are having sexual intercourse, a particular vibration occurs, and is felt by the astral entities in the astral environments. One of those souls is inevitably drawn to the intense life force of such sexual intercourse and the subsequent conception. The soul might not even want to be incarnated, not want to be born itself. Or the soul cannot control the mother-to-be's desire of not wanting to be pregnant, or her subsequent desire of wanting to terminate the pregnancy. Those souls that are awaiting their forthcoming incarnations in the astral realms are potently drawn to the powerful life force of sexual intercourse between a man and a woman, and cannot control many of the existing conditions.

I am against abortion. But I do not intend to be an activist.

posted January 19, 2009 11:06 PM            

quote:

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According to Samuel Sagan, M.D. , some Indian masters had said that the soul of the baby arrives around the fourth month of the pregnancy (roughly the 12th week as LEXX has indicated) and that's when the mother starts having cravings, which is a sign showing that the astral consciousness has arrived in the unborn child in the womb. However, Dr Sagan also mentioned in his book "Entity Possession" (initially published in Australia under the title "Entities, Parasites of the Body of Energy") that such a theory is quite ancient and sometimes a pregnant woman would have cravings in the first month of pregnancy, indicating the particular soul/astral consciousness may have already arrived during the first month of the pregnancy, proving the aforementioned theory to be invalid.

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posted January 20, 2009 09:05 PM            

quote:

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I highlighted some of that quote.
The key words here being:
"Entities, Parasites of the Body of Energy"
I see these as walk-ins/body thieves, which come in BEFORE the proper time of "the quickening" and preventing the soul which was going to occupy that body, from entering it.
I feel that is one reason the miscarriage rate is so high before 12 weeks. The mother's soul recognizes the entity is an invader and not the soul waiting to come in at the proper time.
More later on all this...it is a long essay.

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To me, it is not so clear-cut simple. And such notions remain personal speculations.

Women have miscarriages for reasons that remain rather intangible to the present human understanding. For instance, I myself have had a number of miscarriages for the past couple of years, and I am positive those miscarriages were not due to the embryos being parasitic entities other than a soul that had incarnated. To assume that is so would be jumping to a conclusion without sensitive observations and due consideration, or refusal to modifying one's established personal views when facing those that are different from those of the given individual's.

I am going to quote some excerpts from Dr Samuel Sagan's book "Entity Possession":

On page 70, lines 6 to 15:

quote:

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...According to Ayurveda, or traditional Indian medicine, in the fourth month the heartof the fetus is well developed, which allows the baby's Higher Self to take position in it. From then on, the mother is called dauhrdini, "the one with two hearts," and due to the baby's desires she starts feeling cravings.

This may appear to offer an easy answer to the ethical question of abortion: from the point of view of Ayurveda, before the fourth month the embryo is just a piece of flesh with a bit of prana (life force) in it, exactly like a vegetable. There is therefore no spiritual contraindication to abortion, on offense against a higher form of life.

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On pages 70 to 71, lines 32 (on page 70) to 2 (on page 71)

quote:

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Whether things are really that simple or not is another question. All esoteric tradtions are far from agreeing on this point, some placing the arrival of the baby's soul much earlier than the fourth month. Moreover, whatever may have been the case two thousand years ago in India, we know very well that nowadays women do not wait till the fourth month of pregnancy to have cravings. So if we were to take the beginning of the cravings as an indicator, as Ayurveda does, it would mean that the baby's soul sometimes takes position inside the womb as early as the first month.

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During my first pregnancy, immediately after the conception, I noticed that my prune juice (which I drank twice a day) consumption triples. Before that I could not tolerate the sour taste of prune juice well enough, but right after my conception, my tolerance of its sourness drastically increased (as ancient Chinese regarded the sign of the increase of sour foods or beverages consumption in a woman often indicates that she is pregnant), and so did my appetite. I began eating some more for the meals, adding some organic brown sugar jelly, a Japanese red seaweed semi-fluid beverage and so on. My cravings started the morning after my conception.

Cravings aside, in any event, I am against abortion, because the combination of a spermatozoid and an ovum- an embryo, whether one regards it as only a piece of flesh with only physical and etheric life force, I consider that sufficient for me to refuse the practice of abortion. It is life force. I would not intentionally discard a piece of flesh, let alone deliberately, in a mindless manner, discard a part of life force. Life force is sacred to me.

To consider miscarriages are the result of ridding parasitic entities would be biased presumption. As for the timing of the arrival of the baby's soul/astral consciousness, it truly depends, and varies from one case to another. Any hasty conclusion would be misleading.

Life force is life. I would not purposefully terminate a life, or say, a form of life force.

D

posted January 20, 2009 09:46 PM            

quote:

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To consider miscarriages are the result of ridding parasitic entities would be biased presumption. As for the timing of the arrival of the baby's soul/astral consciousness, it truly depends, and varies from one case to another. Any hasty conclusion would be misleading.

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posted January 20, 2009 10:05 PM            

quote:

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During my first pregnancy, immediately after the conception, I noticed that my prune juice (which I drank twice a day) consumption triples. Before that I could not tolerate the sour taste of prune juice well enough, but right after my conception, my tolerance of its sourness drastically increased (as ancient Chinese regarded the sign of the increase of sour foods or beverages consumption in a woman often indicates that she is pregnant), and so did my appetite. I began eating some more for the meals, adding some organic brown sugar jelly, a Japanese red seaweed semi-fluid beverage and so on. My cravings started the morning after my conception.

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posted January 20, 2009 10:40 PM            

quote:

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Although miscarriage is very common, for the majority of women the cause of their miscarriage will remain unknown. http://www.birth.com.au/Info.asp?class=6620&page=1%3CHR%3E%3C/BLOCKQUOTE%3E%3CB%3E%3C I%3E

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Imagine the madness or confusion,
and the agony a soul would experience...
if it moved into the body before 12 weeks or so....
and its body died and was miscarried.[/b][/i]

With miscarriage rates averaging by some estimates at 20% to even 50% or even much higher BEFORE 12 WEEKS.....
Well it is simply not logical that a soul would normally move in at such a dangerous and potentially unstable time before the embryo becomes a foetus.
Some miscarriage information excerpts:

quote:

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Determining the prevalence of miscarriage is difficult. Many miscarriages happen very early in the pregnancy,
before a woman may know she is pregnant.
Treatment of women with miscarriage at home means medical statistics on miscarriage miss many cases.
Prospective studies using very sensitive early pregnancy tests have found that
25% of pregnancies are miscarried by the sixth week LMP (since the woman's Last Menstrual Period).
Clinical miscarriages (those occurring after the sixth week LMP) occur in 8% of pregnancies.

The risk of miscarriage decreases sharply after the 10th week LMP, i.e. when the fetal stage begins.
The loss rate between 8.5 weeks LMP and birth is about two percent;
loss is “virtually complete by the end of the embryonic period."

The prevalence of miscarriage increases considerably with age of the parents.
One study found that pregnancies from men younger than twenty-five years are 40% less likely to
end in miscarriage than pregnancies from men 25-29 years.
The same study found that pregnancies from men older than forty years
are 60% more likely to end in miscarriage than the 25-29 year age group.
Another study found that the increased risk of miscarriage
in pregnancies from older men is mainly seen in the first trimester.
Yet another study found an increased risk in women, by the age of forty-five, on the order of 800%
(compared to the 20-24 age group in that study), 75% of pregnancies ended in miscarriage.
for more information see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage
About 80% of miscarriages will occur before 12 weeks.
It is estimated that about 15 to 20% of known pregnancies will end in miscarriage.
This statistic is often received with surprise and shock,
equally because of its high prevalence as well as how little it is acknowledged and talked about openly.
While a miscarriage can happen at any time during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy,
they more commonly occur around the times the woman's subsequent periods would have been due.
That is around 4, 8 and 12 and 16 weeks of the pregnancy.

Reasons for miscarriage

During the first 12 weeks of pregnancy an intricate and complicated process takes place
as the woman's egg is fertilised and the baby implants, develops and grows.
It is thought that up to 50% of miscarriages are due to a spontaneous genetic or structural abnormality in the baby,
with most of these occurring at the time of fertilisation.
This can cause the new baby not to develop properly, or to die after only a few weeks of the pregnancy.
If the baby does not continue to thrive and grow,
in most cases the woman's body will naturally expel the baby through miscarriage.
It is for this reason that many people believe miscarriage to be 'Nature's way'
of ending a pregnancy that would otherwise have led to a baby being born with major abnormalities.

Although miscarriage is very common, for the majority of women the cause of their miscarriage will remain unknown.
http://www.birth.com.au/Info.asp?class=6620&page=1
Miscarriage rates estimate that as many as one in five pregnancies (or 20%) end in natural miscarriage.
Some are even willing to put this number as high as 50%
because so many early miscarriages happen before a woman even realizes she is pregnant.
Early pregnancy loss is most likely to occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. http://www.birth.com.au/Info.asp?class=6620&page=1%3CHR%3E%3C/BLOCKQUOTE%3E%3CB%3E%3C I%3E

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posted January 20, 2009 11:15 PM            

quote:

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Women have miscarriages for reasons that remain rather intangible to the present human understanding.

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I think there's a great deal of truth in this. No matter how much spiritual beings we are, we're still human here and it's impossible to detach from the human pain of that reality and as a human being, how much explanation is really acceptable for something like that?

quote:

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To assume that is so would be jumping to a conclusion without sensitive observations and due consideration, or refusal to modifying one's established personal views when facing those that are different from those of the given individual's.

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Yeah, I think we need to be careful that we don't assume things about other people or their experiences based on them being different to us. Life is different for each of us.

posted January 20, 2009 11:41 PM            

quote:

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If the baby does not continue to thrive and grow,
in most cases the woman's body will naturally expel the baby through miscarriage.
It is for this reason that many people believe miscarriage to be 'Nature's way'
of ending a pregnancy that would otherwise have led to a baby being born with major abnormalities.

---

This is not necessarily true. Such notions remain personal assumptions. I am positive that certainly not all miscarriages have been potentially pregnancies with abnormalities. That is a false belief, and wishful thinking. Besides, justifying abortion (a different topic from that of miscarriages) by deciding to terminate an unborn child with disabilities is discrimination. This is not justifiable.

quote:

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Well it is simply not logical that a soul would normally move in at such a dangerous and potentially unstable time before the embryo becomes a foetus.

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The timing of and the reasons for the arrival of a baby's soul at or soon after conception has little, if anything, to do with "logic". Such spiritual matters are beyond human comprehension, and this does not come to light by the so-called logical deduction. Too much application to logic blocks one's intuitive understanding. All in all, the subject matter is not about logic and statistics.

D

posted January 20, 2009 11:50 PM            

Thank you for your reply to my question. I really appreciate it. There's a lot there to contemplate. I think the thing is that when we find something we can't answer, it potentially challenges all of our values or perceptions (if it doesn't fit in) so there's a lot to think about. Thanks.

posted January 21, 2009 12:04 AM            

LEXX said:

quote:

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I did NOT say ALL miscarriages were the result of parasitic entities or walk-ins, or body thieves. Most of the times it just happens.

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Far from "most of the time", to the best of my knowledge. I disagree on this statement.

quote:

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I see these as walk-ins/body thieves, which come in BEFORE the proper time of "the quickening" and preventing the soul which was going to occupy that body, from entering it.

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LEXX, if you had been more specific in your first remark on the topic, misunderstandings could have been avoided.

LEXX also said:

quote:

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As to cravings....I do NOT feel that is an indicator of a soul having moved in. THOSE cravings are the result of requiring something the mother may not have enough of to aid in the growing of the PHYSICAL foetal body whilst keeping her from suffering malnutrition.

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quote:

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However, I feel CRAVINGS ARE ONLY AS AN INDICATOR OF PHYSICAL PREGNANCY....NOT AN INDICATOR OF A SOUL BEING THERE YET.

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These are still personal speculations. The concept of cravings indicating the arrival of the baby's soul is part of the teaching of Ayurveda, as Dr Samuel Sagan describes, and it is not necessarily my own assumption. The point is, it's not originally my own idea, but an established teaching of Ayurveda, and this is solely for our reference. Incarnating souls do not rigidly arrive at the womb after the 12th week of the pregnancy. The timing is flexible, and much earlier than the average person can ever suspect. In any event, it is all very probable for an incarnating soul to arrive at the uterus way before the 12th week of the pregnancy, and even if the astral consciousness has not yet come to the embryo, the embryo is still a life form, full of life force, and whether different people think of the embryos in any way, it is life, and I would not abort it.

Again, earliy miscarriages do not indicate the unborn would have suffer from birth defect in some way. That is very bigoted.

D

posted January 21, 2009 12:15 AM            

quote:

---

LEXX said:

quote:If the baby does not continue to thrive and grow,
in most cases the woman's body will naturally expel the baby through miscarriage.

---

quote:

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It is for this reason that many people believe miscarriage to be 'Nature's way'
of ending a pregnancy that would otherwise have led to a baby being born with major abnormalities.

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As to miscarriage being caused by possible foetal abnormalities....you said:

quote:

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This is not necessarily true. Such notions remains personal assumptions. I am positive that certainly not all miscarriages have been potentially pregnancies abnormalities. That is a false belief, and a wishful thinking.

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quote:

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Besides, justifying abortion (a different topic from that of miscarriages) by deciding to terminate an unborn child with disabilities is discrimination. This is not justifiable.

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quote:

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Well it is simply not logical that a soul would normally move in at such a dangerous and potentially unstable time before the embryo becomes a foetus.

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quote:

---

The timing of and the reasons for the arrival of a baby's soul at or soon after conception has little, if anything, to do with "logic". Such spiritual matters are beyond human comprehension, and this does not come to light by the so-called logical deduction. Too much application to logic blocks one's intuitive understanding. All in all, the subject matter is not about logic and statistics.

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