posted March 24, 2009 02:03 AM         

Another example would be Communist Romania that not only forbid abortion, but fined women that did not have children (and had an agency to test each woman to make sure they didn't have secret abortions). Not only was this policy disastrous to the nation in terms of overburdened health care and plagues and general resources (food, blankets, etc), but it was the ONLY country where Communists fell by being thrown up against the firing wall to be shot primarily by those the state had forbid from being aborted. Even those who were older claimed to be egged on by youth (one older man that took part claim he never would save his 13-year-old daughter talked him into it after he'd caught up with her trying to get her to leave the mob about to shoot all government officials they could find). IOW, abortion disallowed, and society collapses.

In contrast, those who kill themselves leave debts behind, hurt life insurance companies (making it more expensive for others), and the like, so it's a social benefit to bar it. This doesn't really apply to the terminally ill, but all others could be seen as "having responsibilities" and needing to be rehabilitated should they try to escape their obligations with death.

posted March 24, 2009 09:52 AM         

quote:

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It is okay to make the choice on behalf of another soul, in order to draw them into the material realm, where they may be subject to war, disease, depression, old age, poverty, and heartbreak, and where they definitely will be (if they live long enough) subject to desires, disappointments, love-sickness, struggle and death.

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Are you working under the assumption that sex alone forces a spirit to begin the incarnation process?

quote:

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But it is not okay to make your own choice about when to make the jump between worlds, even if it means evading all these horrors and returning to the relative freedom of spirit.

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Do you believe that the material world alone offers difficulties and suffering? Can only the corresponding physical body suffer? If so, how would you account for emotional pain?

quote:

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Can somebody explain this to me, and offer actual evidence to support your beliefs?

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posted March 24, 2009 10:44 AM         

This caught my eye and is one so many ask.

quote:

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But it is not okay to make your own choice about when to make the jump between worlds, even if it means evading all these horrors and returning to the relative freedom of spirit.

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I always ask or ponder, it it truely relative freedom of spirit[?

How can we ascertain, once it is commited, the spirit realm offers release of emotional suffering?

Do we Know , with certainty; there is release from suffering in the next realm?

Or do we hope?

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted March 24, 2009 11:48 AM         

quote:

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I was under the impression HSC was refering to the formerly quite strict religious opposition to suicide and the lingering social stigma.

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Perhaps the lingering question asked, is in part, why it is a religious no-no and social stigma.

just pondering out loud

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted March 24, 2009 12:15 PM         

The social stigma stuff seems kind of obvious to me. Everyone is doing the same thing and here comes another person challenging it in whatever way. What better way is there to unify a people than to have something to unite against? Mob mentality is the most crude translation of fear. And people who go against the grain are catalysts, for better or worse.

I dunno, maybe we're talking about different things here.

posted March 24, 2009 12:33 PM         

quote:

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yes, of course

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HSC pointed out that suicide isn't thought to be "ok". Quinnie asked, "who said it isn't ok?". So I thought maybe it was best to verify.

posted March 24, 2009 12:48 PM         

Thanks for the info on the Church's official stance, TINK.
More Catholics should be made aware of that, I think.

Again, though, I am interested in the reasons for the beliefs.

Where did you read about them? Who said it? Why do you believe it?

I'm not necessarily speaking from my own assumptions, TINK.
I am suggesting quite a few different ways of looking at things.
If your aim is to discover what I am thinking...

Again, if you have any evidence, that would be great.
Rather than just trying to pick me and my post apart, --
a perfectly well and good aim in itself, but beside the point --
lets work together here and see what we have found.

posted March 24, 2009 01:12 PM         

I think what you're attempting now is good and I'll defend you all the way.

You asked first for evidence. I can't give you any hard evidence. I'm sorry. If someone visits a foreign land I have never seen, how can they do more but describe it to me? How can they offer proof? Faith is strong and a higher state than belief but to trace my reasons for Faith would certainly be difficult, particularly considering the means and state of our communication.

Entire conviction of truth never follows mere hearsay

posted March 24, 2009 01:21 PM         

Go pick on Mannu's brain.

quote:

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So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed day by day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

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Good one.

I hear what you are saying..
and it is hard to keep track of where we heard things,
and hard to know why some beliefs take root in some souls,
and other beliefs take root in other souls.

Thank you, anyway.

posted March 24, 2009 01:30 PM         

I have faith in things I don't believe in. This tells me faith is not a mere outgrowth of belief.

I really want to get to the root of this right now.

posted March 24, 2009 01:36 PM         

Don't touch my hand.
Or speak words to me.
Any conversation would irritate.
Sanity, comes quite immune to me.
While I recreate with my mind.

You'll see things, you don't believe in.
And you'll feel things, you can't percieve.
Shut the doors, and draw the blinds.
Sit back and create, with your mind.

posted March 24, 2009 02:12 PM         

It usually also hurts the ones left behind in many ways. emotionally, socially, financially.
Or depending on the situation...a suicide can be a relief to those left behind.
Each situation is different.
But the suicidal one escapes nothing...except living in a body. Their baggage was packed and ready for the trip and goes with them. They escape only being in body.
It can also affect the time to next incarnation.

posted March 24, 2009 02:23 PM         

tink - your input is appreciated, mythbusters on the job.

mvm- i agree whole heartedly.

our spirits yearn for oneness with god, and our human flesh makes it impossible for now for we all only see in part.

religion is a separate thing. many religious people don't understand spirituality, and many spiritual people don't understand religion.

our paths can't all be the same. although they can all lead to certain irrefutable truths if one is truly seeking for something more than the day to day living of this life. good thread.

posted March 24, 2009 02:35 PM         

quote:

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our spirits yearn for oneness with god, and our human flesh makes it impossible for now for we all only see in part.

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posted March 24, 2009 03:00 PM         

LEXX,

Your theories are very interesting.
Again, I am primarily concerned with evidence.
Is there anything you can say in support of these claims?

You say that mental/emotional pain is not easily shed.
And, yet, bodily pain seems to be shed very easily,
at least, according to the NDE stories I have heard.
They say, it is like kicking off a pair of tight pumps after a long day.
I wouldnt know what that is like, lol, but I can imagine somewhat.
It would seem reasonable to think we might shed the mind in a similar fashion,
and, as it turns out, this is exactly what so many NDE's seem to report.

Some say that the body is just an expression of the mind,
and that problems manifest in the body which are really mental in origin.
Some say the opposite: that the mind, as we know it, is a manifestation of the body.
I take it you do not believe either of these to be the case.

Other accounts I have read suggest that, when the emotional problems
are the effect of mental illness, they are as easily shed as physical ailments.

Yet, it seems to me that all emotional difficulty
is somehow an outgrowth of neurosis, and an affliction.

Lastly, as I find it so hard to conceive of "free will",
I cannot help thinking we are all as innocent as God,
and that our problems are not our own, any more than our gifts.

To me, all of this is so very difficult to make heads or tails of.

posted March 24, 2009 03:34 PM         

quote:

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LEXX,

Your theories are very interesting.
Again, I am primarily concerned with evidence.
Is there anything you can say in support of these claims?

---

quote:

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You say that mental/emotional pain is not easily shed.
And, yet, bodily pain seems to be shed very easily,

---

quote:

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at least, according to the NDE stories I have heard.
They say, it is like kicking off a pair of tight pumps after a long day.
I wouldnt know what that is like, lol, but I can imagine somewhat.

---

quote:

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It would seem reasonable to think we might shed the mind in a similar fashion,
and, as it turns out, this is exactly what so many NDE's seem to report.

---

quote:

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Some say that the body is just an expression of the mind,
and that problems manifest in the body which are really mental in origin.
Some say the opposite: that the mind, as we know it, is a manifestation of the body.
I take it you do not believe either of these to be the case.

---

quote:

---

Other accounts I have read suggest that, when the emotional problems
are the effect of mental illness, they are as easily shed as physical ailments.

---

quote:

---

Yet, it seems to me that all emotional difficulty
is somehow an outgrowth of neurosis, and an affliction.

---

quote:

---

Lastly, as I find it so hard to conceive of "free will",
I cannot help thinking we are all as innocent as God,
and that our problems are not our own, any more than our gifts.

To me, all of this is so very difficult to make heads or tails of.

---

posted March 24, 2009 03:54 PM         

I can't say ALL emotional pain is neurosis. Some emotional pain is felt like birth pangs before having a breakthrough, in the midst of transition. It's like a level of personal sacrifice; it's maybe like baptismal immersion, to go through something and come out the other side transformed.
But if the emotional pain stays stagnant and in the same dull state, then there's definitely affliction within. I liken it to a pregnancy that just goes on and on and on, and doesn't result in birth.

In addition, I do believe that to a certain extent we can bargain with the Universe, and demand less painful lessons, as long as we express a desire to learn. I do think this is the Free Will part. I've had complete temper tantrums when I was at my worst, said (to whatever powers that be, or the higher self or whatever) outloud: "NO. NO. Screw YOU. If you want me to learn something, then you'd better go easier on me, because there is no way in hell I am going to learn if you keep at me like this."

I know it sounds really immature, but I think it works to an extent. It's my own life - if we're going to learn some huge lesson in life and it's got a level of emotional pain involved, then we sure as hell get some say in how, as far as I am concerned.