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Author Topic:   Ladies and communication
Swerve
Knowflake

Posts: 613
From: London
Registered: Nov 2002

posted March 13, 2006 11:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swerve     Edit/Delete Message
Got a question for you ladies....

How do you communicate with people in terms of speed, responses, keeping people hanging, prioritising.

I got an Aries girl who stopped responding to my texts after I went round her house and didn't have sex with her. I think she thoguht of it as rejection, I just felt it was a bit quick after meeting on the net and then inviting me for lunch round hers the next day. We did get intimate but I held back from going all the way.

Anyway, she stops responding to my texts so I said hey well i was hoping we could be mates, but ok, take care of yourself. A week later she texts me saying sorry sh hasn't been in touch as she had a rough time after her friends' Mum killed herself and she had to go away for a week. Totally understandable. I said sorry to hear that hope she's alright. Tried to phone her thenext day to see how she was. Nothing. 4 days later no text or anything, so I said I'm a little confused are we talking or not? Nothing back again. I know she has more important things to think about, but still a litle confusing. She is 29.

Another Gemini girl I have known for years, we were mates, I got infatuated because she was unavailable, then she had to change jobs because of violence from a workmate. Then we bump into each other over the next 3 years, always emotionally charged, then we become mates again after falling out a couple of times due to her being so flaky.

She is the flakiest girl on Earth. She will e-mail you out of the blue, seem all happy to talk to you, then not reply to your reply to her and then seem surprised when you contact her next time surprised she never got in touch. She is 23.

My ex-Cancer when we were together was every day e-mails messages, phonecalls as nauseaum. Then COLD, stopped everything and acted like I was a stalker when I tried to get in touch. Weird. She is 22.

What is up with you women? (I'm kidding here). Surely there is a pattern here I'm missing. I am starting to wonder whether its not just worth playing games and keeping your heart out of things with most ladies.

I have noticed a trend that at first they want to have the communication and know how you feel, etc, But then once that is secure for them they switch completely and decide the rules are different for them.

This way guys can end up not caring through the sheer stupidity of this uneven game (good guys I mean, not the natural players) and start to simply shut down to women, losing repsect and apporaching relationships in a more practical manner of fulfiiling their needs. And then women ask where the romance has gone.....


....confused....

Ladies, help me out here, I'm jaded with all this miscommunication.


Swerve

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sue g
Knowflake

Posts: 4830
From: ireland
Registered: Sep 2004

posted March 13, 2006 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sue g     Edit/Delete Message
Get an older woman Swerve......

We communicate more clearly and sincerely,,,,,,in the main !!!

I try to be very honourable in my communications, but if someone pushes me too far, I blow them out.....but not without honest and forthright warning !!!!

xx

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Mama Mia
Knowflake

Posts: 889
From:
Registered: Jun 2005

posted March 13, 2006 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mama Mia     Edit/Delete Message
See I knew it, I knew that she was not ready for you Swerve..I do not like Aries and Pisces together,it may work for some but not the really special Pisces ppl and Swerve you are special..When I go through negative stuff with mulitple ppl I have to pull back and see what mistakes am I making, bc I realize that if the same things keep repeating themselves then I am missing something.

Swerve this one may be on you dig deep babe...

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Swerve
Knowflake

Posts: 613
From: London
Registered: Nov 2002

posted March 13, 2006 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swerve     Edit/Delete Message
I have to be honest Sue, I've tried that. I'm not bitter or twisted here, I actually find it so amusing that most women I meet are either so untrusting or untrustworthy.

Same old pattern of making them want you and keeping them hanging works. respect and honesty simply do not, believe me I tried. Guys tell guys that you should never respond straight away to e-mails, texts whatever in case you look desperate and it's true!!!

Keep a woman waiting for a call and you are a ******* . Respond quickly and you are desperate. Wonder why they can't be bothered to do the same and DARE to ask why and you are clingy, possesive or a stalker.

The guys who are most successful with women are the ones that only PRETEND to respect them, and they fall for it every time. Girls do this the opther way around too. Nothing genuine or honest seems to work unless you get a keeper, which is the mentality of most of the women here, who are far better than the girls you might meet on the whole (which is why you lot are lovely but not typical I would say).

I have tried to disprove this theory but the world is the way it is. So be it. But it is sad most people lie to each other and themselves and hide behind games and then deny they are playing them! Very weird, but I guess it means you just shouldn't really care anymore and have a laugh. Hard to take romance seriously in the middle of all of this.

Its also hard to write about this without seeming lonely or desperate but I assure you I am neither. Just bewildered and amused.

Swerve

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Swerve
Knowflake

Posts: 613
From: London
Registered: Nov 2002

posted March 13, 2006 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swerve     Edit/Delete Message
I'm alright Mama, I don't actually care about the Aries, there was something not quite right about her. I'm also not looking for "the One" right now. Waste of time that has proven to be!

And you are right! The mistake I kept making was coming on too deep, too romantic and basically seducing them with words actions, and luuuurve. Then things have to get normal, or I expect a little respect back or communication and ...nothing...unless the mood takes them. Cannot be arsed with that, tiring and booooring. Same old tune over and over. Now I just flirt, lie a little, boost their ego's, give them the attention they crave and then back off.

Nope, just observing whats actually happens rather than how people convey it (very rarely the same thing). I was out on Satuday and I tried adopting this new mentality and wouldn't you know it I became irresistable!!! Weird.

Mind you, I will be trying it again, there were some lookers giving me the come on. That'll do me for now.

You can't be mad at me, I'm only evolving through experience here. If I had met nice decent respectful women who were good to communicate and honest all the time do you really think a guy like me would even be discussing this? No, I'd be content. Didn't pan out that way unfortunately...very unrealistic. I can't wait until forever until a decent woman turns up who has everything I'm looking for, I'll just take what I can from whats available. Prorbaly much like women do with the bolkes that are about. Everything else is dreams and fantasies which are nice, but always disappear if you try to grab them too tightly like a gentle mist.

Swerve

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 4047
From: Bisbee, Arizona
Registered: May 2002

posted March 13, 2006 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message
I Swerve,

I think it may have less to do about it being a woman thing and more about where and what sign Mercury is located in (as well as the influence of the Sun).

I have found (which I intensely dislike) that people will be all hot and heavy with e-mails / texts....etc until you start getting serious - then it's done... My ex was HORRIBLE when it came to that. In the beginning he was always sending beautiful e-mails and texts - then NOTHING... not even when he was taking a class for 3 months in the midwest. I would e-mail him and not get crap back (he never realized that having Mercury in the 4th house meant that I was very prone to wanting communication - not to mention Venus in the 3rd house of communication, Virgo rising and being a Sag).

I mean, I don't expect long e-mails everyday. But, as a couple it's nice to get a sweet text (and I send them as well) or an e-mail just saying "hi and I love you". When he wanted to get back together with me I explained it to him.. but again, it dropped to nothing (funny, but he could text and e-mail anyway else, but he would with hold that from me). (He had Mercury in Gemini in the 1st house and a Taurus rising - Saturn in his 3rd house).

The Leo is GREAT about writing and keeping up communication. He sends me an e-mail almost 4 times a week (and we spend all weekend together) and text messages when we part and throughout the day. I love it.

As far as my friends though, I have to admit I can be a flake. I end up being so busy with other events (I am on two charitable committees, plus a member of another time consuming organization) I work full time and I am in a relationship. It means that I am not always going to be able to send a response via e-mail the next day or even a few days later.

I end up getting friends that send me rude e-mails (like one person here that demanded my time but didn't realize that I was in the process of moving, leaving an ex- then getting laid off) they say things like "I e-mailed you two days ago and haven't heart a response and that is rude". I just want to scream at times.

I feel like if someone is NOT one of my best friends or a lover, I do NOT have to respond within 1-2 days. I usually let them know ahead of time that I am busy, but they hit me with the guilt trips and that makes me p1ssy and usually I will drop communications with them.

For example, there was a young Taurus that had a thing for me. I had met him only one time and he got my number from my friend. He started text messaging me every day at least 5 times a day or more. He would tell me he missed me and my smile..etc... I responded with "Hey, I don't really know you and I think you are getting ahead of yourself".

It was relentless and then he started with the guilt "pidaua, you are so cruel, you just don't realize how much I like you and want to spend time with you".

If I didn't respond then I'd get a rude one stating "You are so cold hearted, how can you ignore me like this. I see how you are!"

Finally I said "quit texting me or I will have you blocked".

His response? "B1TCH!!!!!"


Women are usually big on communication, but if you are not considered totally significant, the communication will drop off because we don't want to come off as forceful or demanding (we get that crap all the time as it is).

Aries is probably very busy and somewhat flaky. Give her some time and drop her a message once in a while... she'll come around. I know that I didn't respond much to Mr. Leo at first... not until I started to really like him and started seeing him

~Pidaua

The flakey Saggie

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Love
Knowflake

Posts: 76
From: Canada
Registered: Feb 2006

posted March 13, 2006 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Love     Edit/Delete Message
I know some people might disagree with me on this, but it's just my observation. I find that water-y sun signs (such as myself) are always more invested initially(at least outwardly) than other sun signs. Water signs, regardless of the other aspects in their charts, have always seemed to try harder atleast at the outset of a relationship. If I am dating a Scorp or Cancer (I have yet to date a Pisces) then I find that I get more regular communication than I do from a non-water sign and since I am the same I feel less vulnerable.

Having said that, Swerve, I am in the same boat as you, likely floating down the same river as well. It would be so nice if I could meet someone whom I adored who didn't feel the need to play "the game". I am so blunt and honest with people that sometimes I get truly annoyed by men who feel it is somehow necessary to manipulate...like not answering the phone when I know that they know it's me calling...sometimes you just know these things. Ugh.

Anyhow, there's this book called The Passion Paradox and I would encourage you to read it since it deals specifically with this topic. There's really a whole psychological element to relationships with the whole give and take thing and balance.

But I do understand what you're saying about having to play the game to get the desired effect...and how it sucks to have to play the game to experience it.

Ok, I feel like I am rambling.

Peace out.

Love

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 1991
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted March 13, 2006 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Water sign here...


I've always approached relationships idealistically.
I always think I can say it all.
I think I can wrangle the insecurities,
anticipate all the assumtions,
discuss the experience of union with perfect detachment,
and unmask the dynamics before they take shape.
Its impressive, exhausting, and comical to see me try.
Attempting to fill the spurs of Gallahad,
I end up a second-rate Don Quixote!


Occassionally, I'm lucky enough to meet an equally idealistic girl who appreciates my affectionate nature and my candor. At first, you cant imagine the sense of relief, at being able to communicate in this way. We express our mutual contempt for games, and how committed we are to keeping that initial purity intact....

Then REAL feelings, and reality set in.

And, however conscious we are of this or that,
we must admit that the same old rules of the game apply, -
that, we are unconsciously conditioned to observe them,
and, if we dont wise up and learn to play the game,
we're just going to end up throwing it.

Swerve, if you met a girl who matched the intensity, sincerity, and openness which you are so proud of in yourself (and I dont blame you; I pride myself on the same qualities),
you would begin to lose respect for her love,
which seemed to come so cheap,
and to view her in the same desperate light
in which your yourself have been cast.

We think we can begin with absolute trust...
Like, "Shhh.. You dont have to say, do, or earn anything;
Look, here's your A+, here's a gold star for you,
just for being you,..."

Of course, its ultimately just as hard to keep an "A",
as it is to earn it, - maybe harder.
Because, in your idealism,
you tell each other that you can take it for granted;
that there's nothing to be done,
but let nature take its course, etc...

And you take it for granted;
you let your guard down,
and, oh, doesnt it feel so good not to be playing the field;
not to be planning your next move...

But, all the while, dynamics are working themselves out unbeknownst to the both of you.
And maybe you become aware of a few things,
and try to discuss them immediately,
so as to 'nip them in the bud'.

But its just the nature of feelings to be wild;
not to be easily encompassed, or harnessed, by words.
And its our own nature not to be in touch with our feelings,
particularly when we are trying to encompass,
and "break" them.

And games must be played...
Because when we approach one another,
before we can express whats in our hearts and minds,
there is always an adjustment to be made;
a feeling-out, and then a teasing-out,
of the other's receptivity.

If we were to flaunt these rules,
and, upon seeing one another,
neglect to preface our affectionate displays with some synthetic show of independence,
we would not give the other a moment to adjust to our presence,
and to rediscover their feelings for us spontaneously, -
but, would catch them in an independent moment,
unreceptive to our romantic enthusiasm,
and feeling quite alienated by it.

I write as if I've learned something,
but I'm no wiser for my experience.
I'm just as determined to win or lose love on my own terms.
I just can't pretend its not a game.
Or that I make things any easier,
by inventing the rules as I go.


Seekingly,

HSC

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fayte.m
Knowflake

Posts: 3587
From: ~out looking for Schrodinger's cat~
Registered: Mar 2005

posted March 13, 2006 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
Swerve..
When you figure them out..
Let me know
I am still trying to understand the ladies.

Only been really getting a handle on talking to women since joining LL almost a year ago.


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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 4047
From: Bisbee, Arizona
Registered: May 2002

posted March 13, 2006 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message
I think it would be simpler if we STOPPED looking at approaching people based on their gender and just spoke to people from the heart.

I try to talk to my friends (men and women) in the same manner and I don't read into what they say. If they say something that strikes me as odd, I ask them.

I like straight forward people and I have a hard time with those that get too fluffy and speak / write in a circuitious manner (Merc in Cappy).

Maybe it is my Saggie Nature, but I get so damn tired of the whole gender crap. Why is it we have problems with speaking to one sex over the other? Why is it if you are a woman and you have male friends that you spend time with you are considered loose? If that man was named Bonnie instead of Bob people would keep their stupid mouths shut.

If we spoke to Bob the way we spoke to Bonnie and to Bonnie the way we spoke with Jim wouldn't it all be so much easier?

I try not to look at the sex when I am speaking and instead at the fact that it is with a fellow human - some are smarter than others, some you have to slow it down or dumb it down, some are so brilliant you feel like a goober trying to talk to them LOL.... REGARDLESS of what is swinging (or not) between their legs!!!


~Pidaua

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Aphrodite
Knowflake

Posts: 4645
From:
Registered: Feb 2002

posted March 13, 2006 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aphrodite     Edit/Delete Message
hey swerve,

i think the aries girl got embarassed. when aries gets embarassed, a lot times they can't admit it and try to maintain friendliness. but after a short period, the lack of feeling into holding up appearances gets flat and your continued contact reminds her of the faux pax that she'd rather forget about. it's totally selfish, i know.

as for the gemini, i relate. the truth is we get distracted when we get attention from several different guys at the same time. girls -in general- don't turn into bullies in your face if they don't want to talk to you anymore. girls will tend to stay a little friendly and then fade away. it's a common way for us to give rejection.

as for the abrupt coldness, that is a usual girl's way of saying she is angry, and super ticked off.

my two cents about women's communication. i personally don't think these are games. women are not socialized to express their anger and dissent. men are. it's just how it goes for a lot of women that they want to get along, and not to express dissent even to their female friends. anger is repressed and stews for a long, long time.

aphrodite

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MysticMelody
Knowflake

Posts: 251
From:
Registered: Dec 2005

posted March 13, 2006 07:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
The Aries is the "man" in the relationship, the Gemini only remembers who you are every other Thursday, and the Cancer was ready to get married and when you didn't propose immediately she assumed the relationship was over and you were just coming around later to "get some".


hehe Just lightening things up

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Aphrodite
Knowflake

Posts: 4645
From:
Registered: Feb 2002

posted March 13, 2006 07:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aphrodite     Edit/Delete Message

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taurean_scorpion
Knowflake

Posts: 755
From: santa monica, california
Registered: May 2005

posted March 13, 2006 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for taurean_scorpion     Edit/Delete Message
gee, i'm sorry.

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sthenri
Moderator

Posts: 4086
From: Generic New England City
Registered: May 2003

posted March 13, 2006 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sthenri     Edit/Delete Message
I agree with the water signs and being emotionally invested right away...they are great..a pick me up when I am down:>

Aries tends to be very idealistic and flaky towards new people-they seem to be very attached to family though.

My Aries male friend is always going away for his family..

My pisces friend like Swerve says the same thing, women just fade away, but we don't know how to reject because then we are saying what's wrong with you..then you can come back and ***** at us and we get our feelings hurt.

personally I would rather know what's wrong with me, now I know.

Personal growth and dating are not the same!

Natasha

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MysticMelody
Knowflake

Posts: 251
From:
Registered: Dec 2005

posted March 13, 2006 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
HSC, I just read your comment above and it immediately healed a contempt for men that had been silently growing somewhere deep inside me. I feel immediately happy and light just knowing that you (and hopefully many others like you) are out there in this world thinking those thoughts.

Swerve, I've read your comments here and there also, and any woman who isn't blown away by your mind as well is not worth a second look.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 1991
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted March 14, 2006 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Awww...

Thank you, Mystic Melody!
Very sweet of you to share that.
Makes me feel good.

And it heals some of my own less flattering
impressions of women, to know that
hearing a man speak sensitively actually reduces,
as opposed to increases, your contempt for them.

So many women would see me as immasculated.
As if, having a #@&% means you have to be one!
Its amazing how many women want insensitive jerks,
even if they say they don't.
But, hearing you say that,
I have hope there are sweethearts out there,
and maybe Swerve and I DON'T have to become jerks,
in order to keep a girl interested.

I dont know how many are out there like me
(*fogs fingernails, rubs them on shirt*),
but, if you dont give up, and settle for less,
you're bound to find one,
sooner or later.
And he'll be lucky to find someone who knows his worth.


to you,

HSC

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Mama Mia
Knowflake

Posts: 889
From:
Registered: Jun 2005

posted March 14, 2006 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mama Mia     Edit/Delete Message
MysticM what you said about Swerve is true I have always seen that..

Swerve that is why I said that you are special and please do not sale yourself short there is a special lady for you I promise you and she will see and accept you with unconditional love she will be able to recieve you..Just hold on!!!!

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Swerve
Knowflake

Posts: 613
From: London
Registered: Nov 2002

posted March 14, 2006 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swerve     Edit/Delete Message
Hi guys,

Haven't read any of these posts yet, was too bloody embarrased quite frankly. What a tirade!!! Sorry about that.

I'll read them now and post in response.

I certainly don't think I'm special though I have to be honest. I'm cool and fairly wise sometimes, but nothing special. I certainly don't expect any special treatment.

And I hope I'm not coming across as all lost and introspective again like I have been for last few months. Ugh!

No, I'm trying to be practical here, which is a bit of a stretch and observing what I see around me. Honesty really hasn't seemed to work for anyone I know. Not all-out honesty anyway. A sugary-coating seems to make things go down like Mary Poppins advocated...erm...well you know what I mean...

Right, reading posts now...


Swerve

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Swerve
Knowflake

Posts: 613
From: London
Registered: Nov 2002

posted March 14, 2006 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swerve     Edit/Delete Message
Right, I was chatting to my mate who was a player extraordinaire in his youth and he tells me that in the end you aren't left with anything, its all hollow.

However, he is still practical in that he says be "economical" with truth (he's Pisces with a Cancer Moon, like me without the intensity basically so we relate very well). You should not lie, but basically keep the situation as sweet as possible by approaching it in whatever manner is most approprate to attaining whatever goal you have in mind, and keep an aura of mystique around you at all times!

My Aries mate is a bit more direct, he says always be ready to drop them in 30 seconds flat if things don't work out and never let them disrespect you. He has had girls try to play him off with other guys and he doesn;t get upset he just says fine I'm not here with you as of this point and goes after other girls instead. They always come screaming back and ask why he's being like that!

My Taurus mates who are the best at picking up the girls at the moment simply never get that involved, they are respectful and strong in themselves and a good laugh, but the girl is never in a position where she thinks she "has "them, and consequently her own game is turned on its head. Indifference is a killer.

I read your posts and it seems many of us are on the same page, but then I hal expected this. Quite frankly people who are capable of peeling back the layers of life from the viewpoint of something like astrology and debate the topics and general themes of life and experience in the manner we do here are not "normal". We're a little bit more evolved.

Maybe I shopuld be looking to hook up with one of you guys, I reckon that would be nice. Or at least a lifelong friendship.

Perhaps you lot should just be my template. A little of Pix's passion, Natasha's solid womanly outlook, Aphrodite's looks (don't be embarrased by that darling, just observing), Pidaua's down-to-Earth take no BS approach (which I admire), Mama's big beautiful heart and all you others you know I luv ya.

Nice combo that would be. Idealistic me? Perish the thought.

Swerve

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 4047
From: Bisbee, Arizona
Registered: May 2002

posted March 14, 2006 06:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message
Ahhh....Swerve.. and here I thought you loved me for my beauty LOL....

I try not to look at how my friends do with picking up men or women. It's hard, but I suppose you are right when you say we are a different lot. For me, love / relationships are icing on the cake of life... not something that is a necessity. Maybe I can say that because I have been blessed with a rich romantic life- I am not sure.. LOL...

I do know that I thrive on my work and being with my friends (online and in life). It's a thrill to be able to learn so much about people and their walks of life, even those I don't care for LOL...

That's not to say I haven't had my ups and downs with men. I have had my heart handed back to me (or should I say - I've snatch my heart back) more than bruised, slightly broken, but still beating

It's that optimistic side that tells me that it will all work out. It also tells me that even though I want to play the game back(and I did a fair amount of being a bit of a player in my younger years) I can't do it because the karmic implications aren't to be desired.

I have always felt that if I am honest and open (albeit always guarded) then I will meet someone who treats people in the same manner. I am blunt, I don't suffer fools and yet there isn't anything I wouldn't do for a friend or someone down on their luck.

I never realized how much I did for people until my Leo brought it up over the weekend. He said "For someone as take charge as you, you never fail to open the door for someone that is disadvantaged, you always help the elderly and children. You took that homeless man that people avoided and bought him coffee while talking to him as though he was a long lost friend - yet you never skipped a beat and it was just second nature to you".

But maybe it is because I have seen how brutal life can be to people, so when I experience the players I just shake my head and think 'There is so much else going on in the world and all you can think about is getting your wick dipped LOL"

Hmmm... yes, we are a different lot here.. and I wouldn't have it any other way.

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Aphrodite
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Posts: 4645
From:
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posted March 15, 2006 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aphrodite     Edit/Delete Message
That's some vision you of a woman got there, Swerve

I agree with you that we tend to a lot more introspection here than most people.

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MysticMelody
Knowflake

Posts: 251
From:
Registered: Dec 2005

posted March 15, 2006 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
Aphrodite, you must be a fellow Venusian.

HSC, yes sooner or later.......... But he's got to be absolutely magnificent because I get better every day I'd rather wait for quality than settle... even if it's a long wait.

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MysticMelody
Knowflake

Posts: 251
From:
Registered: Dec 2005

posted March 15, 2006 02:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
Oops Aphrodite, just read your stats on the First Love thread. Sorry, warrior goddess!
We do have Cap moon in common though.

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Aphrodite
Knowflake

Posts: 4645
From:
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posted March 15, 2006 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aphrodite     Edit/Delete Message
Warrior goddess!

You've got the frostbite moon sign too?!?! LOL!

What is your Sun sign?

P.S. I interpret "fellow Venusian" as being either Taurus or Libra.

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