posted September 12, 2010 11:27 PM            

Also - how do you know someone is narcissist?
If you are aware of any professional websites dealing with this, I would appreciate some links.

PS. I know this topic came up some time ago and Belgz was asking about narcissism and Leo. But I would like to discuss aspects here, not particular signs. So I preferred to create a new thread, rather than find the old one and bump it.

posted September 12, 2010 11:45 PM            

I found this on wiki:

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Hotchkiss identified what she called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:[16]

1. Shamelessness - Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.

I was thinking astrologically, "an inability to process shame in healthy ways" could come from Saturn squares to the personal planets.

2. Magical thinking - Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to dump shame onto others.

I am not sure about this one. But it could be Neptune-related. Neptune is associated will all kinds of delusional behaviour. I hope I don't get any interesting disorders myself - since I have Mars conj Neptune.

3. Arrogance - A narcissist who is feeling deflated may reinflate by diminishing, debasing, or degrading somebody else.

This sounds like an afflicted Mars? Reacting in a very arrogant manner?
Mars square Pluto or Mars opposite Pluto?

4. Envy - A narcissist may secure a sense of superiority in the face of another person's ability by using contempt to minimize the other person.

This is very true for someone I know. For envy I would say -- having low self-esteem could lead to that, so a debilitated Sun position. ]

5. Entitlement - Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Any failure to comply will be considered an attack on their superiority and the perpetrator is considered to be an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.

This is also unbelievably true for him I wish I could have access to his chart. I may be able to in about a week.
Perhaps this "feeling of entitlement" could be connected to negative aspects between Sun and Mars?

6. Exploitation - can take many forms but always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.

It's interesting because I often get the vibe that he treats people as objects to his own means - rather than as other people.
This involves delusion again. But it is an egotistical sort of delusion - Sun square Neptune?
Btw I have this aspect in my own chart ^^ But I am simply considering the nature of the planets and the possible "negative" manifestations.

7. Bad Boundaries - narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist will be treated as if they are part of the narcissist and be expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.

posted September 12, 2010 11:54 PM            

quote:

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Masterson's subtypes

In 1993, James F. Masterson proposed two categories for pathological narcissism, exhibitionist and closet.[17] Both fail to adequately develop an age- and phase- appropriate self because of defects in the quality of psychological nurturing provided, usually by the mother. The exhibitionist narcissist is the one described in DSM-IV and differs from the closet narcissist in several important ways.

The closet narcissist is more likely to be described as having a deflated, inadequate self-perception and greater awareness of emptiness within. The exhibitionist narcissist would be described as having an inflated, grandiose self-perception with little or no conscious awareness of the emptiness within. Such a person would assume that this condition was normal and that others were just like them.

The closet narcissist seeks constant approval from others and appears similar to the borderline in the need to please others. The exhibitionist narcissist seeks perfect admiration all the time from others.

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I could kind of see this with him again. I do not know much about his family history so i can't comment on his relationship with his parents. But he does seem to require a lot of approval and attention in this manner.

I would say he is more so closet.

For the closet narcissist as described here -- My thoughts are Pluto in negative aspect to a Sun/Neptune square - because it is kept undercover.

Whereas for the exhibitionist - perhaps Jupiter would aspect a Sun/Neptune square.

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Thanks for reading this and lookin' forward to your insights!

posted September 13, 2010 01:11 AM            

quote:

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7. Bad Boundaries - narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist will be treated as if they are part of the narcissist and be expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.

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quote:

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6. Exploitation - can take many forms but always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.

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quote:

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5. Entitlement - Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Any failure to comply will be considered an attack on their superiority and the perpetrator is considered to be an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.

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Debilitated Moon, Saturn (can emphasize meanness), Pluto, unlikely to be Mars...since Mars would be more assertive/honest..could be debilitated Venus maybe, though unlikely. Sun negative Pluto sounds possible. I'd have to see the chart.. The whole thing at its heart is the child's needs not being met in this person's estimation, and for needs it's the Moon. Childish behavior is the Moon/h4, etc.

posted September 13, 2010 03:35 AM              

quote:

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And whereas in a normal family a child excelling is normally a welcomed event, in mine i was secretly punished for it. The narcassist neds people to be subservient. They have to have a source of 'narvassistic supply' (as it's known).
It's an awful, awful personality disorder mainly because of it's secretness and the projection a false self to the world.

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Absolutely!

posted September 13, 2010 10:41 AM            

I think the best book is "Malignant Self Love" "by Sam Vaknin.
He has a web site, too, I am quite sure and prolly U tube videos.

The paradoxical thing is that they look like they have a huge self when ,in fact, they are very,very insecure and have little real sense of self.

They try to make their children feel bad and shamed for having a normal, confident identity.

posted September 13, 2010 11:11 AM              

i couldnt help myself but laught all the way i was reading the signs...cause i know one person who has all of them,strongly showing it to everyone around him...yup my bf´s brother.

If you want i can post the chart for you to see how it looks like:

BTW..he is a psychologist..

- SHAMELESS. he has saturn square from moon/merc

- MAGICAL THINKING - yes,he pretty much lives in his world,where he is the center of it. he receives Square from Neptune to Venus/ruler 5th & 6th and 10th - that is why he doesnt sit at one place of work...he doesnt like to work at all).

receives a sqaure from Jupiter too.

- ARROGANCE -this one is strong in him.usually he tends to dismiss,inferiorize everyone around him in order to feel the Best among the people..he has MARS CJ PLUTO in the 9th receives square fro Nessus.

- ENVY - this one is regular too,primarily focusing on his brother. He has kiron kikunx sun with kiron in the 4th so probably he thinks that FAMILY is where the wound comes from.

- ENTITLEMENT - definately!whenever things dont come out as expected,he blames everyone but him.one day my brother tried to put his CV to be studied in the Company,and he didnt had the skills or habilities to it,so when he was "Just" called to be interviewed(just cause of my brother) he came talking to me saying my brother was not professional,was a bad person cause he was not well treated in the interview,and not called for the job...

Obviously he wasnt called cause he was not the right one for the place..

He has mars conj sun

- EXPLOITATION - very true again,he does this all the time with his family.He has Moon in the 10th,cj Mercury,with Moon opose kiron

- BAD BOUNDARIES - yup!to him,others exist to meet his needs.EVERYONE!hand because his parents and brother usually act as suppliers,they are treated like that ( not me though..i dont give him SPACE to do that).Whenever im there,he usually appears without being invited,to eat and spoil our romantic needs.

posted September 14, 2010 05:16 PM            

If that's not narcissism, I don't know what is

posted September 14, 2010 07:18 PM            

Lonake - It makes sense for the Moon to be afflicted. I never realized this disorder is so connected to mother-issues. Could it also be father-issues? I think it's more likely this man has father issues.

PDF - Same question goes to you ^.

Also, you said they stop developing at an early age, 2-7.. When I read Lonake's post I was picturing a 0-2 year old infant.
It's very difficult for me to understand what goes on in a narcissistic "mind" (and heart for that matter). If the person stopped developing at 7 - for instance.. It still seems strange to me that they have *zero* affection and empathy for others. A child at 7 years of age could exhibit those traits.

Or do different narcissist stop developing at different points in time?
Are some more emotionally developed than others? (like the difference between a 2 year old and a 7 year old)

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For those who think they're narcissists - You could simply be "egotistical" - but that doesn't mean you have "Narcissistic Personality Disorder".

posted September 14, 2010 07:41 PM              

he worked some time in a company as a group psychologists,like as a part of Human Resources.

but you know he uses his skills and knowledge not to help others,but to use them,through manipulation skills.that is why he is so effective on it with almost everyone.specially women.

posted September 14, 2010 08:55 PM            

I agree that all of us would be diagnosed as having schizotypal personality disorder or even schizophrenia or a type of psychosis.

I was actually diagnosed with schizotypal personality disorder by psychiatrist after being taken to a navy hospital in Japan after being open about metaphysical,spiritual beliefs,experiences.
My naval command gave me a preliminary diagnosis of psychoses, but the navy hospital psychiatrist countered that with a schizotypal personality diagnoses. After doing a psychological test, his asking me questions, and a few moments of pause, he told me that I am not crazy. He just told me that I am just odd and unusual.

He asked me if I know any examples of people that are odd and unusual. The first people that came to mind were Michael Jackson and Stephen King. I pretended not to know. He said "Stephen King"

hahahahahaha

He also told me that I didn't have to come to him in the first place. He told me that my rights were violated. He also told me that I shouldn't be so honest. He also advised me about not psychoanalyzing people after I admitted that I did that.

This was all back in 1998. I recently got into New Age,metaphysical stuff,Astrology.

A lot of these personality disorders overlap with each other.

I have an Avoidant Personality Disorder diagnosis in 2004 which I don't deny. It's pretty much a label for people that very shy,extremely sensitive to criticism,inferior complex,and have problems with relationships. That's me to a T, and those problems didn't start in adulthood. Those started in early childhood after I got placed in special education with the intellectually handicapped and getting called "retard" on a daily basis. I believe that so-called personality disorders can start in early childhood.

I was also diagnosed as having a Dependent Personality Disorder before that.

Many neurodivergents will fit criteria for a psychiatric disorder of some kind whether it's a mental illness or a personality disorder

If they are the metaphysically oriented kind and are open about that stuff, they will get a diagnosis of schizophrenia,psychosis.

Fact: half of schizophrenics have history of delays in speech/language and/or motor skills/coordination, and those are characteristics that are often found in neurodivergents.

Autism used to be thought as a type of schizophrenia too.

My Neurodiversity Advocacy involves raising awareness of the overlapping symptoms/traits of psychiatric disorders and neurodivergent conditions. I want to help my fellow neurodivergents from being diagnosed as having psychiatric disorders that they don't have. Even for things like depression and anxiety, it's important to look at what causes them Insecurity and low self esteem from feelings of stupidity and incompetence can make neurodivergents feel depressed and anxious. Depression and anxiety are common things that neurodivergents experience. Psychiatric medication isn't going to take away the feelings of stupidity and incompetence.

One of the objectives of DNA is to push for psychiatric reform which includes psychiatrists have their patients do both psychological and neurological testing to differentiate neurodivergent conditions from psychiatric disorders to avoid misdiagnoses and unnecessary medicating.

Any ways.....I don't trust psychiatry. I never had, and I never will. I was at the bad end of psychiatry. Both my parents were too. My father was a diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He was a neurodivergent Black Creole man raised in a metaphysically oriented household in Louisiana (born in New Orleans and raised in Lake Charles) that included belief that magick and spirits existed. Heck....he and I shared Moon in Pisces in common. He also had stationary retrograde Neptune. My mom described him as "real real sensitive" He was a very shy man that was very anxious around people. He stuttered and cluttered,and that alone made him very shy. My mom told me that she would speak for him at times when around people that he didn't know. He definitely had issues with being insecure and low self esteem.

It wasn't easy being a black man born in the Southern USA in 1941. Then being a neurodivergent on top of that, and being so sensitive,emotional in connected to that. Then being highly superstitious.
From the predominantly white neurotypical society's perspective, he was very messed up and was at high risk of being diagnosed as having schizophrenia.

I once told a psychiatrist that psychiatric diagnoses are based on the biases of society.

I got a Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders DSM - IV, and I used it to stand up for myself against a psychiatrist who focused on my irritability as mania in bipolar disorder which I was diagnosed as having. I showed him in the book that irritability is also a symptom of depression and anxiety. He wouldn't listen to me, and I was getting irritated with him. He asked me why I am being so irritable. I retorted "It's ignorant ass people that make me irritable" He asked me if I was calling him that,and I told him "Yes". He made me leave. I told him that he can't distinguish anxiety from mania. I get so anxious with psychiatrists and medical professionals in general that it's not even funny. I will even get much higher blood pressure readings from just being in the hospital.

In the discussion area of DNA group, I did post about Psychiatric Disorders. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=131944976821905&v =app_2373072738&ref=ts#!/topic.php?uid=131944976821905&topic=109

I also wrote a post Fine Line Between Neurological Disorders,Neurodivergence and Mystical Perceptions,Schizophrenia http://www.facebook.com/boar d.php?uid=131944976821905&f=2&start=30&hash=9e7463f07f4dfe24de044ffb4dc15a5a#!/topic.php?uid=131944976821905&topic=462

I just don't see how I can be a psychiatrist with Astrology, knowing that our own sanity would be questioned by psychiatrists.

btw

I have an "afflicted Moon"

Moon in Pisces in 6th square the opposition of retrograde Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd and retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 9th

but that configuration is about anxiety,depression,and avoidant personality disorders and overall feelings of insecurity

no narcissism

with 3rd,6th,9th house involved.....challenges involving communications,education,learning,teachers,daily routine (including organization)work,service,religion,philosophy,ideals

Yeah..I have a history of mother issues, and she's very similar to me. She even has far less education than I do. The last grade that she completed was 8th grade. She's a neurodivergent and has history of problems with drugs,alcohol,depression,and anxiety. She's an ultrasensitive person and she gets upset very easily. She also has problems with self-love too, and it stems from being unwanted by her mother who left her as as baby. She has her own problems with being insecure and low self esteem just like my biological father.

also hard Neptune aspects like in my t-square can indicate my misdiagnsoses as well as my ultrasensitivity to my environment which would be viewed as having sensory processing issues. That's common in neurodivergents including especially autistic spectrum

btw...I read that people with Aspergers Syndrome get unfairly looked as narcissists too.

Raymond

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted September 14, 2010 10:22 PM            

Umm, Betty, so not wanting to hijack this thread, but...

...just a sneak-peek into a part of my chart. Whaddya say?

P.s. I don't buy psychiatary either. I have been diagnosed variously as being manic-depressive and borderline schizophrenic with extended periods of apathy. Just so you know