posted May 19, 2003 02:14 PM              

Just wanted to give a little insight into a question you may have. You said:

quote:

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"question about my chart: everyone seems to find it amusing that it sounds like me (ive not had time to look at it yet but i will soon) but a question... i put down my birth date as 03/10/84 but people interpreted that as the 10th of march and then told me how accurate the chart was. thing is, i meant the 3rd of october. low and behold tho, my actual birthdate chart is just as accurate as the wrong birthdate one."

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I did see the post you are speaking of... and the reason for this is that one of the interpretations was given for the planet Pluto. Now, as you know Pluto moves very slow and is considered an outer-planet. It usually affects in a generational manner... that is to say- less individually than the inner or "personal planets" (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars). The Pluto sign placement you have you share with many, many other individuals, so any day you would have given in that year would have given you the same result (generally)... so it is yours no matter what.

Now what is yours individually would be the aspects (by degree and house) that all the other planets were making to Pluto (or any other planet) at the time you were born... which will vary greatly and intricately minute to minute. If you want a correct chart, you need to have an EXACT birthtime. When you have a real chart done, there is no denying the validity, it is truly uncanny.

I don't know if any of this makes any sense, but hopefully it helped some...

posted May 19, 2003 02:29 PM              

I have much hope for the future of science in that respect!

Also, Randall gave great info about the ozone and global warming on another string here. I thought it was VERY enlightening and you should check it out. I can't seem to find it, but when I do I'll post it.

...hmmm, does anyone else know where it is??

posted May 19, 2003 05:17 PM              

I don't really see how Science could ever be labeled "bad"

Science is the learning process, re-inventing itself always as we test theory into the damn ground until it becomes law

The "Anti-Science" attitude seems a little hypocritical considering the learning process of science gave us everything around us in our lives

The so-called "Bad-Science" of global warming, the ozone, and issues similar, are a result of "Bad-Humans" not really a science gone wrong...

As for Astrology, I think Astrology's roots are inherently within science; you know, math, geometry, relativity...

And I think Astrology is a re-emrging science, and I agree it proves itself to me every day.

posted May 20, 2003 06:17 PM              

Just some thoughts, here and there... your posts are large and densely packed with questions, like on an exam ("Astrology: Defend"), so it's tough to respond fully without writing an essay, or given the length of these threads, a small book. But it is fun, and an excellent opportunity, for people here to get back to "beginner's mind" and remember why they support astrology in the first place.

The "Science vs. Metaphysics" polarity is a false one, although proponents of both, and the media, like to make it seem so. Why does one need to disprove the other? Humans have been looking up at the heavens, making observations, and making tools to record their observations, for millennia. There is a history of astrology as well as one for modern science -- and if you look into these histories, you'll see that they were convergent, not divergent. I read an article about the history of psychiatry where there was a deliberate distancing away from metaphysics in the early 20th Century, as it tried to fend off the label of "pseudoscience" to gain "credibility", and funding, actually... a typical political strategy.

Before the advent of computers, astrologers relied on publications of planetary and luminary movements*, called an "ephemeris". They are still sold, although software is superceding them. Before that, knowledge was held by a closer, smaller group -- individual scholars, who were often astronomers and astrologers both. Before then... well, carvings and markings on stone tablets, belike. Sailors navigated world waters long before the advent of a sextant, before maps... the stars were the first maps.

You refer to Stephen Hawking -- I'm going through "A Brief History of Time" right now -- and while I too have heard he scoffs at astrology, have you really read his thoughts on science? The book is full of the errors of science along the way, and how many times a paradigm has shifted once the evidence becomes overwhelming -- or how science has ignored the data due to pride and politics. I think you would like the book; it inspires one to question prevailing values and knowledge. The lesson being, that despite its persistent, and too-positive pushy PR about its benefits, science is only one major branch of knowledge, and has an imperfect history. You'll likely encounter a lot of "anti-science" backlash at Lindaland, but you must take this with a grain of salt -- this is a board of seekers, questioners, and any and all authorities are questioned here -- plus it seems reasonable to expect backlash due to public awareness of junk science, corporate-or-political-interest-driven science, and many individual personal difficulties due to what seems to happen when a "pure" science approach is elevated above the essential rest of the human being ("there's nothing wrong with the chemicals sprayed on your lawn, just take this pill").

Astrology remains popular -- especially once one begins to delve into it beyond those silly newspaper SunSign astrology columns (except for Rob Brezsny's Free Will Astrology, IMHO) -- because it offers a reliable system by which one can understand human behaviour. Having studied social sciences, religion, and as a fan of both astrology and science (mainly geology, but I took a fantastic Interplanetary Geology elective), my view is that astrology offers as many insights to people about themselves and their situations as depth psychology (Freud, Jung, Rogers, etc.). Most people don't want a Freudian analysis; they want to be happier, more secure, or fulfilled.

The way I see it, the Signs represent groupings of character traits (Aries: courageous, brash, impulsive, ideas and raw creativity, etc.), the Planets represent psychological drives (communication, spirituality, sex, darkside, etc.), and the Houses are the area of life where each plays out in an individual chart (home, career, among friends, in a couple, etc.). That is astrology at its most basic.

Your questioning of astromomical/astrological measurements is important. Throughout history, when new information is discovered, science, culture, religion and history itself all make major adjustments, but try to retain the "best" parts of established knowledge. Like knowing that our current calendar is not accurate, but using a seven-day week, 365-day year system anyway, because it basically works. Like knowing that recent archaeological findings prove that the Christian Bible is rife with historical error, but not allowing that to undermine the value of the considerable human wisdom available in that book (see article from Harper's Magazine, March 2002, by Daniel Lazare at http://www.catalaw.com/detox/forum2/messages/1685.shtml). Serious astrology has been through that self-questioning process, although the average astrology "lay" person may not be able to explain it well; it's up to you to continue to do research and decide what you think.

I'll wrap up now, but a last distinction: I think it is a common error for people to fall into the "do you believe in astrology" trap, rather than the "what do you think about astrology?" That kind of argument puts the debate on the level of religious debate, and gourd help us all when that happens. Either a person is looking for facts, or a conversion; like the axiom says, a person convinced against their will is not convinced.

Good luck in your seeking,

Cheers,
Lunargirl

posted May 20, 2003 07:27 PM              

i think we're thinking along the same lines (with the obvious exception) as we seem to have studied the same stuff. you mentioned 'a brief history of time' which is so weird cos thats the last book i bought. unfortunatly, i left it at my parents house before i left to come back to uni so i've only got through a few chapters. im finding it really interesting but would love you to point out those mistakes you mentioned.
You also mentioned Freud to do with personalities which is also weird as i do psychology as an elective and spent half the exam writing about him.

i enjoyed reading what you wrote so please write more in future. also, do you have any useful links about what you were saying cos i'd really be interested.

before i joined this forum (less than a month ago) if someone had asked me that question you specified "do you believe in astrology?" i would probably have laughed and given a definate 'no! dont be daft' but now, although my basic opinion remains the same i.e. i wouldnt answer yes to that question, i now know that giving an answer is not that easy. its a more complicated question than most people realise.

im going back home tomorrow so i'll read some more of what mr hawking has to say. i'll be off this forum for a bit but hope to see loads more debate going on

posted May 21, 2003 11:19 PM              

And when she does, I hope she can laugh at how she is such a classical Libran when she says:

quote:

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(i love how this started as an 'argument' but is now totally not)

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...which is a Libran's true goal, and frequently their methodology!

posted May 25, 2003 01:25 AM            

You share 3 aspects with you fiance that are stressful to say the least. One is said to be a classic physical abuse marker, Mars Square Pluto. Another is an indicator of a power struggle, Sun Square Pluto. Both aspects are rather loose at 8 and 9 degrees but that doesn't mean their effects won't be felt strongly. Lastly, there is a Sun Square Mars aspect at about 3* Actually they all indicate a fight over who has the power in the relationship and friction, lots of friction.

Linda Goodman was of the opinion 2 saints could handle the Mars Square Pluto aspect. Mere mortals, not so certain and that's the physical abuse aspect I mentioned before.

She also wrote in Relationship Signs that unless there are other strongly positive aspects between you, a Sun Square Mars meant you would be better off settling your Karma in another lifetime. In other words, this relationship is likely to be stressful beyond the abilities of the parties to handle it.

She also wrote that Sun Square Pluto would see Pluto trying to change the Sun and it wouldn't be appreciated--in the least. In this case it's your Pluto and his Sun.

Just so you know, your fiance's Mars is in Scorpio. See how well this interpretation fits.

Aggressiveness can lead to a fight against society, the family, injustice in general and can sometimes be violent. Weaknesses include passion, rage, fanaticism and frequent quarrels.

This is the best I can do without a time of birth and the city your fiance was born in.

Personal observation----kind of what Lost Leo said. I can see you as a Lioness taking the crown off your own head and handing it over--voluntarily, but no one is going to snatch it off your head.

One last observation. There is also a karmic aspect in your relationship and that's a Venus Square Pluto aspect. His Pluto, your Venus. In this aspect, Pluto has the power and Pluto usually has the power. It's an indicator that somewhere in the distant past you wronged him and it's payback time.

I would suggest you find a copy of Linda Goodman's Relationship Signs and have a synastry done so you can follow the aspects as she interprets them. It will give you insight as to what's going on in your relationship(s) and help you make decisions.

jwhop

posted May 25, 2003 03:12 AM              

jwhop - no disrespect, I think you gave excellent and valuable insights that will help her act, and I enjoy your posts.

carrie: I love your poem!

posted May 27, 2003 10:33 PM            

You're welcome. Just looking at your fiance's chart, I would take him for a great guy. You do have some very strongly negative aspects with him though. Have you noticed how he reacts with other people?

posted May 28, 2003 01:00 PM              

Mars is on the cusp of Scorpio and Sag and right on the line, that could be either or, so it's hard to tell what the aspect is there. Sag Mars can be loud and talkative (I and a few close friends have Sag Mars. Sag Mars is outgoing and dramatic but childlike and naive, I do yell at my computer sometimes but not when anyone is around. I would say Scorp.

I would stay away simply because of the Venus, Neptune, Mercury Conjunction, I had an ex with the Mercury and Neptune conjunction and he was incredibly charming and a fantastic LIAR. The thing I hate most and of course I had to catch him in it which made him blow up. This gift can be used for good or bad.

If you son is a Capricorn, emotional stability is good.

Take Care,
Natasha

posted June 04, 2003 04:05 PM              

whats all this chat about men and AIDS and charts?? it's great you guys are all helping each other out but thats not what this thread is for. this thread is for ranting about astrology, its merits and its holes.

someone asked me to go and get my 'astro click portrait' done. i've just done it as it just looks like a big circle thing and you'll have to give me time to do all the reading about myself.

i've been to this site before and had my 'personal portrait' done. i read it very carefully, copied it into a word document and highlighted it all different colours depending on its accuracy so i could get an overall view of the thing.

posted June 05, 2003 01:24 AM              

Welcome back.

Threads frequently get hijacked here if left unattended-- or even if well-attended! It's part of the openness and chaos, I think. I guess Leospirit (a newbie too) took the thread title to mean a place she could post a random message. I'm glad she got an answer that was helpful to her.

How were the exams?

If you want a quicker guide to how astrology works, why not join the free Astrology Course here? Send an email to Randall to join. We've looked at signs, elements, the Ascendant, and have looked at planets and luminaries from the Sun to Venus, currently. It's pretty easy to jump in, and catch up, and that forum is where a lot of the astrologers here are focusing energy these days, so you're likelier to get any basic questions answered there, so you can form broader questions to bring back to this Astrology forum.