posted May 16, 2003 12:42 PM              

i came to this forum to argue with and get info from people who actually know what they're on about, but i dont feel right intruding on your discussions about things i dont know about so from now on all my ranting will be kept here... more or less.

ok Enigmatic Soul (hope thats spelt right) do you want to start this arguement or should i?

should we start by stating what we actually do believe to be true and what we dont? or how about some links to sites so we can get some more information before we start? i've got a couple for debunking astrology but none for why it works.

posted May 16, 2003 05:03 PM              

I am short on time right now Ash, but I will later post a couple links, as well as if you would like I can get you a report from a couple of the Astrology Programs that I use. That way you can see it for yourself. Though I can already see the pain coming for all the wide aspects, but this is not me....but whatever, I will deal with those when they come up. As a very logical explanation, that if I went into now, would just confuse you.
As for your debunkin sites, please do post em, would love to read em that is for sure.

posted May 16, 2003 05:18 PM            

How many astronomers have studied (even slightly) astrology?

Astrologers do study astronomy (slightly) as need to understand the planetary movements etc in order to do chart calculations (unless they totally rely on computer programs but most qualified astrologers don't reply on computers and can do manual chart calculations..so have studied some astronomy)

posted May 16, 2003 05:53 PM              

In regards to how many Astronomers have studied astrology, the margin or percentage is very low I am sure. The reason is they ALWAYS, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them use the precession of the equinoxes to "debunk" it. Well you say this is in Cancer, when in actuality it is in Gemini. Ugh...yeah no kidding. Like we are freaking retards and not knowing about astronomy. Yet if they took 10 minutes of time to read what Bissie said about the Precession and the ecliptic in the other thread, it would, at least it shoul brigthen the obviously low wattage bulb that is in their heads.

Astronmers diss astrology because it is cool to. You see, Scientists truly think they are so infinetly wise because they have the "answer" to everything, that they feel they are superior to the influence of the stars. Their egos and pride refuse to acknowledge that they are not as in control of themselves as they believe. That is to a lot of people a truly damaging truth. I know it really REALLY hurt me, when I realized I had to swallow my pride. When the truth is the truth, well...can't hide from it.

BTW, AstroTruth, why is it that the Presidents of the USA find Astrology very important. If it was truly invalid, do you really believe they would waste their time with it??

posted May 16, 2003 06:46 PM              

well all i can say is 'ouch' to the points you made to cat. "low wattage bulbs" just say it cos they "think its cool" big "egos and pride" i thought we were keeping this friendly. dont worry about it tho, i could say the exact same things about people who do believe in it.

its true that most astronomers dont even give astrology a thought, stephen hawking for example said it was pure rubbish in an interview i found. some do take the time to look into all possibilities tho. as for what cat said about astrologer calculating the positions of planets, that seems to me to be impossible without the proper software. this is just an assumption but given the different orbital periods, distances, differences in their plain of orbits and different motions i would not have a clue where to start and dont see how it can be done without HUGH astronomy knowledge. if anyone can do this please tell me, i'd love to know it can be done.

another reason why astronomers dont look into astrology is because there is no reason that will change there mind on the subject. science depends on things that can be proven and theories that can be tested and refined. there is no proof that astrology works except the testimonies of thousands of people and thats not enough. astrology has not changed in thousands of years whereas science has.

Enigmatic soul: you say in an earlier post that science doesnt have all the answers- something about bumble bees. of course it doesnt have all the answers! if it did lots of people ie philosophers, scientists, astrologers etc would be out of work, and apart from this everyone would be a lot happier cos no one could disagree. sure, it doesnt have all the answers, but its getting closer. consider all the amazing things that have been done in the last century.

but what has astrology discovered? nothing. how much closer has it brought human kind to knowing how life began? not close at all.

cat asked why astrologers dont 'dish' astronomy: well what would they say? "discovery of extra-solar planets? rubbish dont believe it, you're all mad!"

ES: you said that for astronomers to discover they weren't in control of their lives would be a "truly damaging truth" why? yeah it would proove them wrong but they're probably used to it ie "the worlds flat: no its not!" "the earth is the centre of the universe: no its not" etc etc i for one would be very happy to know that im not alone. if there was some force guiding my life that would make me happy. if i found out god existed, that would make me happy. and if i found out that magic existed, that would make me very happy. (im not compairing god and astrology to a stupid thing like magic, its just another unproovable example)

have you considered that maybe you believe in the guinding force because the alternative is so mind-numbingly depressing? ie that your totally alone

you said people like me only debunk astrology to be "cool". rubbish. maybe when i was ten years old. like how people smoke to be "cool" and take drugs to be "cool"... only if they dont have a mind of their own.

posted May 17, 2003 03:42 AM            

Ash you said.....

"as for what cat said about astrologer calculating the positions of planets, that seems to me to be impossible without the proper software".

posted May 17, 2003 04:21 PM              

i think you've answered a question i asked in another thread about why signs are based on the day you were born not the day you were conceived- because from the first breath you get some of that energy? is that right?

why do you refer to science as a 'silly religion'? maybe individual scientists have closed minds (as they probably dont want to admit that their entire lives have been wasted on rubbish) but science as a whole goes through a million changes a day as new theories are brought forward and old ones disproved.

how much as astrology advanced in thousands of years? not very far. thats because it is an idea that can neither be proven nor disproven and therefore can never advance.

religion achieves nothing except the intangible stuff followers of it get, whereas science has achieved a HUGH amount.

your description of the whole energy thing makes sense, and i accept that it is what you believe. i'll try and look into that book you suggested.

posted May 17, 2003 08:11 PM            

You just said....
"i was talking about knowing the exact position of a planet. of course they could guess ie take out a telescope and look for it but thats not too precise."

So my question to you is.......You think they guessed????
What are your reasons for saying/assuming that?

Because your original post said....
"as for what cat said about astrologer calculating the positions of planets, that seems to me to be impossible without the proper software".

In reply ...I said.....How do you think astrologers such as William Lilly, Nostradamus etc calculated charts? No such thing as software then Astrology is not a modern "invention"

So are you saying you think they "guessed"???
If so on what grounds do you make that statement? Or was it just a "throw away remark"?

I feel you have ignored rather than answer my reply to your post. You said "it seemed to you that it seems to be impossible without the proper software". Are you disregarding my answer re Lilly & Nostradamus (I could name many more) or are you saying they "guessed" their chart calculations? If so, on what grounds? If you want to debate a point - which you say you do - then please don't make statements without facts. On what grounds do you say you think "they guessed"?????

posted May 17, 2003 09:31 PM            

Ok...I might be a big dummy here, but um, it has always been my thoughts that ASTRONOMERS study the stars/planets/galaxies etc...they study the placements of them, their surrounding areas and anything physical to do with that planet/star/galaxy etc...

ASTROLOGERS use planetary movements to go a step further, by attaching emotions/actions/inactions in our lives, according to the sign we were born into, and giving us something like a road map to follow, that is in correlation with the planets. Free-will gives us the choices to either follow the map via intuition or disregard intuition and follow a sometimes seemingly safer route.

To me, astronomy is concrete evidence of space, astrology is more mystical to me. You can believe astrology, or not. That is where FREE-WILL comes into action. It's YOUR choice to take astrology to heart...or to walk away and call it hog wash.

posted May 18, 2003 10:15 AM              

you said that astrologers study astronomy in that they calculate the positions of the planets at various times.

having not studied astrology in great detail myself, i was not sure how they would do this but i accept that it can be done without software based on what you said about early astrologers.

when i said they "guessed" i didnt mean they randomly chose what section of the sky certain planets would be in. i meant that the only informaion they would have had thousands of years ago on the location of a planet would be by looking at the night sky and seeing it. is that not right? when i said the "exact position" of a planet i meant like to the km. can astrologers calculate that? maybe they can, i dont know.

im not even sure what this argument is about anymore.

posted May 18, 2003 05:32 PM              

when you said "why is it so hard to grasp that people, material structures that contain 7 main energy centers and emit MEASURABLE electromagnetic frequencies had to obtain that particular mass of energies from somewhere?" where you asking me in particular why i dont grasp that idea or was it just a general question?

also im wondering why you suggested a mite be a scorpio. i recently did get my chart done but havent had a chance to study it greatly cos ive got exams on.

can i ask you how old you are? not as a personal question or anything i was just wondering as you say a lot of stuff about reading up on and understanding lots of different matters but im quite young so there is a limit to the number of things i have researched.

hope to hear back from you

posted May 18, 2003 10:37 PM              

"Astrology proves itself daily to me"

posted May 19, 2003 12:16 AM              

Just wanted to say hi and welcome to LL! Also, I just wanted to compliment you on your good manners. I have just noticed in all your posts that you display a great sense of respect for others, and wanted to let you know I find it very pleasant. It really says alot about you and will take you far in life. I don't know if your parents are to "blame" for it or not( ) , but either way, it is a praiseworthy trait that many do not possess.

Also, I think it is great what you are doing here as it also says alot about you. Great minds are open and want to understand all sides Good for you! I will watch the string here and if I have anything to contribute, I will. So far, it looks like everyone is giving you great info!

Peace,
pearly

posted May 19, 2003 07:58 AM              

Secondly, Carrie when you said what her sun sign was, you said probably Scorpio, while that is not her Sun Sign, Scorpio IS her Ascendant. Which is of course the outer personality that we give off. Of course it is just a "coincedence" though that you felt the scorpion energy?

Now as for my thoughts. I suppose I went a bit overboard in my comments. Not all are low wattage minds of course, but more than any will care to admit are. Science is for the most part a joke. They say they are so evolved, yet they are not really evolved at all. For example, Science has not come any closer to proving how life came about. Nor has it been able to prove the blatantly obvious, that there is a spiritual basis of life that is no doubt a force and a very big influence in our lives. To quote System of A Down "Science has failed our mother Earth. Spirit goes through all, Spirit goes through all things"

Next you say how can you get exact measurements of the stars without proper software?? Do you have any idea of who the Mayan civilization are? Their coordinates are to this day more intricate than today's technology. Now I would love to hear your reply to this. These people did these calculations THOUSANDS of years ago, WITHOUT any software telescopes etc. They did it all by way of sight and communicating via the spirit realm. Are you going to say, that it is a coincedence that they could have done this? Ancient texts show how they say they were in contact with spirits to help them.

You see, all science is doing is seperating us from the divine. It is called divide and conquer, the way of evil. Mask the truth. By giving us all these grand "illusions' and making them seem like miracles. Like this way we are communicating right now, it is all designed to make people lose their feeling and connection to the infinite source, and the power of the spirit. Which is of course the realm of the unseen. Astrology is not a science which dictates your life, or what tells you what to do...it simply shows you what energy is at play. Nothing more, how you are going to use that energy is upto you. It is our greatest gift we have. Free Will. Choose to believe it, or not. Your Call.

After looking at your chart, I had a quick little chuckle because you play it out so well. That is of course a good thing, shows that you are sensitive, and also, I must say, that if you think that I am knocking you, than you are far removed, for I think you are a very wise young girl who is extremely intelligent, and who will grow up to be a very smart woman.
While you said that you will not ever change your mind, I surely disagree, cause you are among, oh, say everyone else who is living or has ever lived who at such a young age, as you are that said "I will not ever change my mind". I know you will, for looking at your chart, and seeing how you are displaying yourself here, you have too high of a mental faculty to ignore the truth that is being shown to you, and that will be shown to you. I seriously doubt that you will be so closed minded and ignorant as to disregard it. I have yet to meet one person who has dissed astrology and than looked into what they were dissing that didn't realize they were wrong. Strong statement, Yes, but not one, not ONE have I come across in my path can ignore astrology after studying it. The vast majority of the great minds of the world use it. Did you know that a vast portion of the major corporations that are making millions use Astrology to plan when to have sales, to introduce new products. Wal-mart for example, or Disney Corporation....the list is endless...simple google searches will procur some crazy results.

I was once told I should study those who are making the most in the world, and how they do it, and so I did/do, and as I do, I am finding that a vast majority of the richest of the rich are all adamant astrologers, or if they themselves are not an astrologer have hired a professional astrologer to guide them. Now is this a coincedence? I think not.

Has astrology got any closer to proving itself? Has science? The more questions we ask and get answered, in turn 10x as many questions are raised. Astrology has remained the same for thousands of years, only it has expanded, the same laws and rules that worked than work now...that CANNOT be said about Science. They are Pseudu Intellectuals. Science changes daily. Why because it is all based on opinion. Fact they say, but if it was fact than it would withstand the test of time. We are told that this is true, so we make it true by believing it, than we are told, oops, we made a mistake it is not really like that, it is like this...than oops, not so...Science forever changes its face. It does not ever prove jack. Until Science can prove that the spiritual world which is obvious to exist, than science will forever fail.

You asked me I think in the other thread if I have ever thought about the alternative of being alone? Well, I live my life as if I am on my own....but I also KNOW I am not alone...but should the TRUTH be I am all alone, than fantastic I am prepared for that. I live a vast majority of my life as a hermit. So being alone is not "mind numbing" as you put it. Really though, thinking that we are all alone is just blatant ignorance.

Well, it is 5:40 AM been up all night, so I am going to sleep now, but I will get up later and add to this.

As I read over what I wrote, it is not worded nearly as well as I want to, think it is due to being tired, will correct it tomorrow/today. As what I wrote is generally what I want to portray, just not as detailed or in the manner that I would like...but do feel free to question and add your comments in the meantime.

posted May 19, 2003 10:00 AM              

why do you all knock science so much? its been described as "a silly religion" "mostly a joke" etc etc

dont get me wrong: ive not appointed myself science spokesperson or anything, and im not even studying it that closely (im doing law) but why cant science and astrology co exist? you can believe in both at the same time: believing the big bang theory surely doesnt disprove astrology does it? ES said that science is based on opinions...? maybe a lot of it (especially cosmology) is based on THEORIES but there is a certain amount of proof backing it up. i cant stand up and say "my opinion is that pluto is made of reconstituted ham" and have it published in a science journal, even if i had four pHD's.

ES, i didnt know that about the Mayan civilisation but its quite interesting so i'll have to look it up. and no, i wont say it was a coincidence or they were guessing cos i've not studied it yet and i have a feeling i would never hear the end of it if i did.

question about my chart: everyone seems to find it amusing that it sounds like me (ive not had time to look at it yet but i will soon) but a question... i put down my birth date as 03/10/84 but people interpreted that as the 10th of march and then told me how accurate the chart was. thing is, i meant the 3rd of october. low and behold tho, my actual birthdate chart is just as accurate as the wrong birthdate one. funny that. what if i had made a typo and said 04/12/84 or 19/08/85? would that have been just as accurate? people also keep saying its like me cos of all the references to science and arguing... thats not really me at all: im a law student and since i dont meet many astrologers apart from on this site, i very rarely argue. also, you all seem to assume that i'm a girl: sasha is a unisex name. i could be a big big hairy man. would that alter my chart? probably not, but you all guessed right anyway so it doesnt matter.

ES: i had a look at that other forum conscious evolution and read some of the stuff you posted: not in a crazy stalker way, but i was just interested. i was really amused and impressed with the replys you gave to proxymoon on that thread about 'perceptions of god'. that guy was so abnoxious and up his own a$$ i coulnt bear to read half of what he said. you really told him what you thot- im impressed. if that wasnt your post and theres another enigmatic soul floating about then i apologise.

posted May 19, 2003 12:08 PM            

Speaking of viruses, the traditional view of condoms is that they prevent the transmission of HIV (and other STDs). Well, latex condoms have pores. Yes, sperm are too large to pass through, but viruses easily do. So, the safe sex hype with condoms is bad science.

Did you know that diseases like small pox and polio were on the decline BEFORE the introduction of the first vaccines and that the decline even occurred in countries where the vaccines were never introduced? This is due to better sanitation, better waste disposal, and better nutrition (trucking of fresh fruit and vegetables and refrigeration improvements). But "science" would have you believe the vaccine wiped out these and other dis-eases. There has never been a single double-blind study where one group was given a vaccine and another not (placebo injection) and the results closely measured (although this could easily be done since some religious sects refuse vaccines). In fact, many who are vaccinated still get the dis-ease they were "immunized" against! Measles outbreaks in entire schools occur all over the country in fully vaccinated children! Bad science again.

Global warming, ozone depletion, contagion, virology, AIDS, germ theory of dis-ease--all bad science. And so much more.

posted May 19, 2003 12:22 PM              

astrology however seems to be. not because it is completely wonderful but because it cannot be proven and therefore cannot be proven wrong either.

"Global warming, ozone depletion, contagion, virology, AIDS, germ theory of dis-ease--all bad science." no science is not the cause of these problem. the problem is caused by people. just normal people like you and me. scientists are just normal people like you and me.