posted April 27, 2004 04:11 PM            

What in the heck are you talking about? Should I have run to daddy to tattle-tell on someone? I did bring it up..TO THE DAMN FORUM ITSELF..So that ALL moderators and ALL people can see it on their own and make their own decisions.

Lioneye DID point it out within the very first page when she made her case. I could NOT get back to the damn computer until this morning as I had biotech meetings that took up most of my afternoon and early evening. As far as your reference to bringing something up in a thread and then deleting it and then me posting it again...ummm, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PLEASE????

It is also NOT my style to go run and tell poppa so that maybe he can spank little johnny for me. It IS my style to say "Hey, enough, I am not going to take you calling me stupid racist names" It is the difference between standing up for MYSELF and OTHERS instead of being a sneaky little cry baby and e-mail each one of the 50 million moderators here.

For God's sake I think enough people / moderators have seen this don't you?

I also let these little racist remarks from Carlo slide before. He has made reference to my ethnicity when I first went against him in political discussions and in discussions concerning supporting the cattle industry. I thought someone, a moderator would jump in and say something, but nothing happened - mind you this was well over a year ago and I wasn't about to tattle-tell then.

It seems we get more upset over sexual language that we do over racial remarks - but hey maybe we have become more tolerant of one rather than the other. Funny how bleeding hearts only bleed for THEIR own pet causes.

posted April 27, 2004 04:17 PM            

I'm a "triple threat" myself ... hispanic, female, and pagan.

I've encountered numerous malicious people who have used all manner of nasty words and actions to hurt me. Add to that, I've dealt with chubbiness issues, being "too tall", having had piercings and (still) having a tattoo, growing up poor, and all sorts of other things that some people apparantly have a problem with. I used to get very angry and defensive until I began to see that that's what alot of these offenders wanted ... they wanted to upset me and hurt me, they wanted me to lash out at them for what they "did" to me, etc. It's really sick, when you stop to think about it, that some people have those things motivating their words and actions (my opinion anyway).

I just started not caring about those ignorant opinions. Why should I feel hurt because some fool refuses to or is incapable of opening their mind? Why should I get violent with words or actions in retaliation and show them that they accomplished what they set out to do? It still angers me that people feel the need to attack people based on such irrelevant things, and I will speak up when I see others being hurt by these types of people (I am a fire sign after all ) but I don't like to lose my head over it. I just think there are usually appropriate steps to take when speaking up, whether at work, school, with family, friends, or whatever, and even seeing a therapist or counselor (or a psychologist) or the police if the situation is getting out of hand to leave a paper trail. On this site, we have moderators and a webmaster at our side to help with many issues, including this. If someone was being physically attacked, I'd be hard pressed not to try to intervene as well, whether physically doing something myself to restrain them if possible and/or by calling the police if it's necessary. That's why authority is there, whether or not some people like it, to come to the defense and aid of those who need help.

However, I can also agree with trillian that I can respect these negative, ignorant, hurtful people to think whatever they want and have their opinions ... just as I have my opinions myself. Our thoughts are our own and that's the way it should be. It only bothers me, not necessarily just when those people share how they feel (a lot of them are so blind that they don't know they are biased or racist or whatever), but definitely when their motivation is to attack and/or hurt somebody. Nobody should feel threatened by things like this, and, in my opinion, nobody should just back and watch if it bothers them as well, and they are witness to it or aware it is going on.

posted April 27, 2004 04:29 PM            

I thought of many different things, do I contact the mods? Well, it didn't seem to bother anyone before and exactly who do I contact? Do I respond back to Carlo - "Hey you need to stop that?" Umm, no because he would shoot back with something even more racially derogatory. So - I decided - I will bring it TO the board so that people can see that all walks of life are exposed to racism. That it doesn't have to be tolerated and EVEN if 1-10 people here think it is easier to ignore it and feel sorry for the moron that said it, well, so be it - but I think more people are outraged over it.

And maybe more people will be aware and if it happens to them they will be more apt at coming forward rather than just leaving the forum or taking the abuse.

Am I affected for life because of this? No - I understand it was a small minded thing for someone to do - but I think that others here - teenagers -the same people we worry about reading the explicit sex talk - will also get the wrong idea from those that ignore slurs. So that when little suzie is called something because of her skin color she knows she has voice and can do something - or she can just let it go.

posted April 27, 2004 05:09 PM            

quote:

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I thought of many different things, do I contact the mods? Well, it didn't seem to bother anyone before and exactly who do I contact?

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pidaua
I don't see why you wouldn't have contacted a moderator or the webmaster about this. If it didn't seem to bother anyone, why would it be just because they didn't care or thought it was okay? Perhaps they were even unaware that it was going on.

I see that you also mentioned an HR department at your workplace. Would someone going to them for help with an issue like this also count as "running to daddy" in your eyes? That's what those people are there for. The moderators and the webmaster here are precisely for dealing with problems in regards to "human relations" on this website.
Seeing actions that someone takes in their defense through the systems/people set up for such things as tattletaling is exactly the negative attitude that causes alot of people to not stand up for themselves when they should ... like rape victims or domestic violence victims,etc ... because of fears that their friends or society in general will think they can't "take care" of themselves or whatever. When someone is picked on at school, severely, instead of going to speak to a counselor or their parents, they usually end up retaliating with words or physical violence so that their friends don't think they're little babies running to daddy or whatever ... it's called peer pressure, and sometimes very damaging. I'm not saying in some situations the kid shouldn't speak up for himself to the person doing the harassing, but if it gets so offensive to that kid, then what would be the smart thing to do ... start a fight or get help? There are many cases of school violence that could've been avoided if the kids had just spoken up against the abuse they felt was occurring.

Luckily, physical violence is not a possibility via the internet. I don't think the juvenille attitude is seeking help ... I think it is refusing to seek help because of some illogical idea that it's wrong or immature ... that you can "handle it" on your own. Especially in this situation. Clearly, pandering back and forth with this person didn't achieve much. Instead of getting help from the people whose position it is to do so, the person was attacked back in front of everyone ... in a forum about astrology no less. That is also a juvenile attitude ... picking on someone for what they've done in front of a group of people, most of whom were unaware of precisely what happened to begin with and were being asked to "vote" on kicking this person out, not to mention that the negative behavior (aside from racial slurs) was being participated by both Carlo and those trying to get him banned ... and certainly that thread has served to allow for people to continue to fight. I'm not saying it wasn't effective, but it was perhaps not the best choice. But because of that, instead of being able to work with Carlo personally and having you, him, and a moderator/webmaster involved and deal with it in private so that he stops his actions ... now everybody on this site has also, not only been subjected to this very personal fight, but we have all been reprimanded and told that we will be banned from this place we love so much if we do something offensive without having a clear idea of exactly who would be offended by what and why, and some have felt that perhaps we could be censored or banned over a misunderstanding. It would have been more effective, in my opinion to speak to Randall or a moderator about it, communicate openly your very real concerns, and let them talk to the offending party ... and also add those very offensive racial slurs to the filter if possible, considering that those words were, for whatever reason, not known to be offensive before. There are many terms that I am sure I am unfamiliar with that may be offensive to some simply because I have not had to deal with them before and because I don't know people from every racial/national distinction.

posted April 27, 2004 05:30 PM            

quote:

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As far as your reference to bringing something up in a thread and then deleting it and then me posting it again...ummm, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PLEASE????

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pidaua
That was in response to lalalinda mentioning that those same nasty things that Carlo said are still up on the thread devoted to voting him out or not. S/he was mentioning that no one has removed them. If you read my post in reply to her carefully, you'll note that I was trying to explain that it is one thing to attack someone with those slurs, and another thing entirely to write them out in order to define them and/or bring them up as examples of how and why they were used to offend. I wasn't saying that you using them was inappropriate at all since you posted them in order to clarify just how offensive those words really are.

posted April 27, 2004 05:32 PM              

Sometimes we're better off to be our own judge, jury, and executioners, and in full view of our peers. Extremely out of whack situations call for extreme measures.

Personally, I think the tactic employed was extremely effective, even if it was a little too dramatic for some.

And God knows, I took MY lumps like a big girl from those who didn't like it.

posted April 27, 2004 05:35 PM            

You are beating a dead horse. I already told you - I had meetings yesterday. I am not going to leave a meeting to e-mail Randall so that I can meet your qualifications. I have already explained myself and I chose what I wanted to do and I did it. If you have a problem with that - then deal with it. I made my choice. Randall knows, other mods know...and that quote you posted was how I felt over a year ago about not going to the mods when I was first insulted.

Your can write until your fingers fall off...it will NOT change my choice. We cannot go back in time. I am also quite sure that had I gone to Randall and a public announcement had been made concerning booting someone off or reprimanding someone the new Hue and Cry would be "Why didn't she take it to the board so we could see what was said...how do we know it was offensive" As you can already SEE every derogatory remark was deleted - I didn't notice it because I didn't go back until now - that is why I was confused about what was said regarding deleting threads.

You cannot please everyone all of the time. Thank you for providing your opinion - should someone insult of offend you I am sure you will take it to the Moderator ASAP...hopefully you will not have an MIT grad as a boss virtually pulling you from your office to discuss how you are closing down your radiation lab..sorry - that is MY world right now and living by your guidelines means absolutely nothing to me..

posted April 27, 2004 05:49 PM            

I was totally unaware of the situtation because I`ve learned some posts titles indicate they are going into territory I don`t wish to travel. The offending thread in particular. When I became aware, I did e mail Randall and he was on it asap. I`m sure others e`d him as well. I did the best I could in a given situtation.

Now, how does juniperb see it? It was human behavior at it`s worst. I was appalled and shocked speechless. I chose not to continue giving it the power it was demanding.

When conversations get into the gray area, it sparks the dark and you have a negative vib that will feed on it`s self. I simply can`t believe no one saw it comming.

I love you all, have the deepest respect for the you-of-you. Lioneye, that goes to you too even if you do eat red meat

Pid, I`ve walked your path and yes, it hurts like tiny barbs in your heart. Draw strength from this and let the pain teach. If I could have done anything positive about it, please k-now I would have:

siblings. juniperb

posted April 27, 2004 05:54 PM            

I also want everyone to know that I am going to delete the racial words that I had typed as an explanation. They have been up long enough and it does pain me to know that they are even there.

I also want the Mods to know that I never thought of you all as being ineffective or anything like that. I thought about what to do and this was my choice - contrary to how Eleanore would have handled it.

I still have a great love of this site - even at times when I needed to take a break - and I also have a great love for many of the people here -not all - because that would be a lie..LOL...sorry just a little humor.

posted April 27, 2004 05:58 PM              

I've been waiting for hours
for a good time to ask a question here

if anyone knew why native americans
were called "indians"?

.gloria

posted April 27, 2004 06:02 PM              

not only that
but i'm exhausted of reading more on all this crapp

posted April 27, 2004 06:05 PM            

But, most American Indians deplore that name because it is not that they are NATIVE to America - because no one "belongs" to the land and the land belongs to no one. Almost all of the tribes were nomadic, especially the Southwestern tribes that spent the summer in what is now America and winters in Mexico. All Indians came from outside of America and moved into the territory as winters grew harsher in North Canada and as food became scarce in Mexico.

Many tribes died out and left their mysteries - like the Anasazi - another thing -Many tribes didn't even associate under the blanket term "tribe" in the Southwest, they were mostly smaller sects led by the matriarch of the tribe. Our government is actually based on the Candadian / Northeastern tribes early way of governing - the Iroquois - where they had a league of 5 nations all of which sent represenatives to counsel to discuss their tribes circumstances.

posted April 27, 2004 06:13 PM            

"You think I'm joking?"

" I swear, I will... One more word, and I will turn right around!"

"Don't think I won't just drop you off on the side of the road."

"Not one more word until we get there!"

posted April 27, 2004 06:25 PM              

I'm of the belief that indians in any country continue to protect an unspoken truth. I memory we've forgetten. Future memories. They play a vital role in passing down the folklore. It's extremely important.

The indian people in one of the countries in my blood were left populated down to about 330 people. Down from thousands. History texts are the worst place to read about history. And as each generation comes around, they have yet more history to learn. More steps to take in this lifetime in order to live a life with honor, kind of thing.

History gets jumbled up incredibly quick. And I'm not making a distinction between speaking one-to-one or the information super highway. It just does. It's human nature. As the indian folklore plays such an integral part to their cultures, I take their stories and beliefs very seriously.

My understanding of why Columbus called them "indians" was because when he first spoke of these people he said he called them that because in spanish it's not pronounced like that. In spanish it's spelled and pronounced, Indios.

Dios is a word for God.

People who were with God.

He spoke very highly of them and it was the "jealous crowd" and naysayers who degraded that word by mispronouncing it purpously. And and that's why today we say "Indians".

Just like when Oprah was born, they misspelled her name on her birthcertificate. She was born Orpah, named after someone or something quite powerful, but they just let the typo stand.

posted April 27, 2004 06:42 PM            

I emphatically do not condone prejudice...but it exists in many colors and flavors, and there are many who believe their prejudice is right and righteous, as I tried to illustrate with irony.

I come to LL because I think we are people who want to work out our problems, go beyond the boxes we trap ourselves in, and reach for higher ground.

I'm so glad you touched on the semantics of this situation, because it ocurred to me that perhaps if you had mentioned your feelings to a mod in the early stages, some of this might have been nipped in the bud. I grew up in rural PA, in school, we were taught that 'squaw' merely meant 'woman,' with no negative connotations. A red flag would not have been raised for me, to see it in a post, without knowing its uglier side.

posted April 27, 2004 06:45 PM            

We are all 'Native Americans' who are born of this country.

psst Pid, you been in FFA lately

posted April 27, 2004 06:51 PM            

quote:

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that quote you posted was how I felt over a year ago about not going to the mods when I was first insulted.

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What do you think I have been referring to this whole time? This is what I was replying to in my recent posts. Why would I have quoted you on one thing and referred to something else?

And certainly it is your choice to speak up whenever or about whatever you like. It was your choice to reply and bring this to the attention of the entire forum yesterday when you had the opportunity to do so, just as it was your choice to not address anyone about it when it first occurred over a year ago. I am not trying to make you change your choices now or to go back in time and change them then. I would never ask anybody to do something that is not possible.

And you are absolutely right. If I were to ever be personally attacked by a racial slur on this website, I would certainly contact the moderator of the forum where the incident occured, or to Randall, the first time it happened. To me, that behavior is always inappropriate and one offense would be enough for me to speak out against it, not just because I was personally offended, but so that person would not offend anyone like that again.
I don't think that the moderators or Randall would have made a public announcement out of it because, as juniperb stated

quote:

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An e mail to the offender would have been appropriate for me to have attempted. But.....
I was totally unaware of the situtation

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Yes, those are my views and those would be my choices. You have your views and your choices. That's the way it should be. I certainly am not going to get upset with you for them because there would be no reason to, and I certainly was not upset when I replied to you before or as I'm replying to you now.

My reply to lalalinda in regards to the remarks that were up in the thread devoted to voting Carlo out was done after she mentioned that they were still up ... earlier today.

I don't know why you keep referring to the fact that you were unable to reply sooner yesterday when I was in no way referring to yesterday. If you care to reread through my posts about it, you'll note I was referring to when that sort of behavior first began. If you are busy at work you don't have time to address other things nor should you be expected to. That's obvious and I never said otherwise.

posted April 27, 2004 07:29 PM            

quote:

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I was beginning find it odd that more people are interested in splitting hairs about how the offence SHOULD have been addressed than those who are actually concerned about the offence. I'm not sure what to make of that. That's whacked.

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lioneye
I'm going out on an a limb here, but I think it's safe to say that you are referring to me with this.

I don't think it's odd to analyze the situation in light of all that's come about because of it. I certainly have no use for racial slurs, nor do I wish for them to be used against anyone. I don't know why you would assume that I am more interested in how I think the situation should have been handled than with the fact that what was being said was wrong. As far as I can tell, no one is justifying that those words are not offensive or should be allowed, especially not me. I do think the way the matter was handled is important because it does affect each and every person that posts here. This situation has set an example of how people can/should deal with a person that offends them personally. A thread devoted to each offensive person seems to be a good idea, just as contacting a mod seems to be a bad idea. OK. Glad that's been cleared up. Hope everyone makes a note of it.

Really, I don't know what to make of your assumptions about my concerns. I'm sure you are aware of the new policy in effect over this matter. Please do no assume that I am okay with racial slurs or personal attacks, because I am not nor have I ever expressed that sentiment. I see, however, that the other examples of offensive behavior, like the sexually explicit comments and what not have not caused such great concern. I am not going to assume that the lack of an entire thread devoted to them implies that nobody was also offended either. The new warning about posting does not say to just not use racial slurs ... it refers to any attacks of a personal nature and that is a wide field. I for one, thought the homepage would be enough of a warning to all, but it has not proven to be the case. I do not think people should attack people personally over anything and let's just hope that nobody purposely or inadvertently offends anybody else.

BTW, I never meant to imply that anyone was more offensive than Carlo in this conflict, nor did I intend to bruise anything at all.

I certainly don't think the tactic employed was dramatic. I think I've expressed enough of what I do think it was and I won't continue to expound on it since my views on it are apparantly so entirely in the minority, and also apparantly leading to assumptions about how important or not I view the actual offenses to be.

quote:

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EXTREME ugliness shouldn't occur anymore. I'm not sad about that. Are you?

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I don't think extreme ugliness should ever have occurred or been allowed to continue. I'm not sad about that, and hopefully, it won't happen again. I guess I just have some concerns over misunderstandings that are bound to occur, especially in a place visited by as many people as here. I see I'm also expressing an unpopular opinion with that, so we'll just wait and see. I do hope that personal attacks are dealt with quickly and efficiently if they do occur from now on, and that everybody still feels free to express their views without being branded or judged for their opinions or beliefs, as well.

posted April 27, 2004 07:37 PM              

Feels like old times doesn't it?? Yippeeee!!

Well, gotta GO! Gotta go wax now....

You're all just too hip for words.