posted April 27, 2004 07:47 PM            

Does "Indian" derive from Columbus's description of Native Americans as "una gente in Dios"?

I have heard a number of Indian Americans refer to themselves as Indians and not Native Americans as well. My mother's side of the family also Indian origins, and they always have referred to themselves and their ancestors as Indians also. I never thought it was offensive until it was brought up in school. My mom couldn't stop laughing over it.

The Indian cultures, like most if not all other cultures, did have names and/or ways to refer to their particular tribes for themselves but they were in their own language and much of that has been lost or forgotten, especially in regards to the tribes that no longer exist. A lot of names for cities and even states if I remember correctly are also of Indian origin, but perhaps not in their original form.

posted April 27, 2004 07:53 PM            

Here`s a link to my local Indian heritage. http://www.ltbbodawa.org/history.htm

posted April 27, 2004 08:04 PM              

perhaps Columbus was a pioneer in many ways, but he could not have ultimate influence over the politics of his trip. that doesn't mean something beautiful didn't try to happen. most women close to indian influences has nice cheeks bones.

i'm just being "cheeky" -
i know
not funny

but i crack myself up

posted April 27, 2004 08:21 PM            

Here's another one I found in relation to language and word origins:

Native American Glossary

Pretty interesting to look at all those words we use and know they have such an interesting origin, no?

posted April 28, 2004 10:47 AM            

From my own lineage I have Cherokee and Apache, which is another reason why I am more familiar and tend to speak from the perspective of the Southwestern tribes. Some of the information is scarce and there was a time when my own family wouldn't talk about. My grandmother was forced to marry my 1/2 blood grandfather when she was 16 (she is a full blood) but does not have an ID card -mainly because she was raised by a Spanish family. It was common in that region of Texas to marry off Indian women to Spanish men or to "loan" them out for work to a Spanish family.

In any case - my mothers side is a bit more open with the full blood Cherokee great granny from Oklahoma. She married a good -Ol German dude and popped out a few boys. She also had a parlor upstairs where she would chant, read auras / cards and speak to the dead.

As far as history and names. The Apache tribes were divided into subtribes the Chirichaua, Mescalero, Lipan - two of the dominant tribes in Texas, but then those tribes are further broken into bands -which I spoke of earlier- Limita, Conejero, and Trementina - small bands like the Nednhi sprouted and then were either absorbed into other tribes (Jicarillo, San Carlos, etc...) or just decimated to nothing.

The word Apache most likely came from another tribe - which is believed to be the Zuni because Apache and Zuni's were enemies. The name Apache - Apachu - means Enemy.

Now the Apache- before the decimation and relocation to reservations called the tribe "Indah" Living people - similar to Dineh - for the Najavo / Hopi meaning the people or people decended from God...this goes back to Anasazi and the first people that emerged from the Earth.

After the decimation of the tribes the new name "Indeh" was adopted - meaning - Dead people are the "dying" people.

It is funny how names are giving. Mangas Coloradas - Red Sleeves -was giving that name for two possible reasons 1) he was an amazingly strong and tall (very handsome) chief that wore red clothing / shirts. 2) which is also just as probable is because he had killed so many enemies his arms were red with blood.

***A side line*** it was improper to give your Apache / Indah name unless made to provide it because giving someone your name gave them your power. Lozen, one of the first warrior women in the Apache tribes real name meant "sister" she was called Lozana or spirited one after stealing the Mexican army's horses.

Germonimo - his real name (he broke code and spilled the beans- was "Goyathlay" one who yawns) He was called Geronimo in battle by the Mexicans as they yelled out to St. Jerome as he attacked. Geronimo had a dream after he had fasted for days and prayed for his sister Ishton (one women or the beautiful woman) to be saved from her sickness. In his vision he was told that he would never die by the hands of his enemy or the bullets from their guns. So being the hardass that he was...and personally I am thiking he was an Aries..LOL...he just went all out zigging this way and zagging that way and never was hit by a bullet. LOL...

So, that is the history that I know. Of course some is from the stories my dad would tell my brother and I. Some is from my own reading on the subjects.

I am now trying to study more in the 'First People' the Anasazi and Pueblo of the Southwest.

Trillian - I still think you are the best. I understand what you meant and yes - we all had to learn a lesson.

Eleanore,

I am not going to keep going round and round with you. I already told you my reasoning - it's not going to change. Honestly, I am the kind of person that takes the big things and thinks about them, while I will react quickly to the small things or when I see someone else get attacked. That is just my way.

As far as my choice in college, yes I did report the idiots that attacked me the second time. Because I had several people come up to me with two very different philosophies - one group said "ahh, just let it go, they do this all the time, they just want to put you in your place" and the other "Thank you for doing something - we have been called names like this before" The first group was mostly of students that didn't want to deal with it, the second group was mostly foreign students from Japan, Oman and India. So I filed a complaint - the jerks were suspended and for a while there was a small but somewhat socially powerful group that HATED me - would give me dirty looks...etc...BUT, they never resorted to calling a person a slur while I was there. Only two other complaints were filed after because people came forward and it stopped. Both guys were suspended from sports - one apologized a year later with tears in his eyes. I never held it against him and told him so. It was over and at least people were made aware.

At the same time - I took that weekend to think about what I was going to do. I didn't just run to the Dean and complain. I had to weigh out my argument. If you take that as not being as offended as one that would report it right away- then by your definition that would be me.

Either way, I am not want to seek controversy or start a major uproar in life. But I also feel compelled to step in when I need to because if not me, then who else?

posted April 28, 2004 12:36 PM            

BTW, thanks for sharing your knowledge of Indian Americans. I find it all very fascinating. Are you familiar with Dion Fortune? I can't remember the book she wrote it in, but she was of the opinion that religion/spirituality is quite related to the actual land upon which it is practiced. She believed that the most appropriate spiritual expression for those in the New World was precisely the American Indian beliefs that had developed and evolved with such beauty here. Not that learning about other beliefs or finding truth in them is not effective, but that the American Indian beliefs in America are the most in tune with the land of this region, and also the people who live on it. I always thought that was a beautiful way of looking at it, especially since the current "New Age" movements have generally looked to the Far East with more interest than to the equally real wisdom that is right here in our own land, and that has survived so much since these peoples first arrived.

posted April 28, 2004 12:42 PM            

It's cool!! Hey - you're a fellow Sag / Aries moon, I know you are just trying to get to the heart of the matter..kind of like seeing myself in your writing...very cool but sort of unsettling

I didn't know about Dion Fortune. I find American Indian religion to be incredibly facinating. My paternal granny used to really practice using herbs / teas for healing as well as meditation / chants for healing. She then was sort of swayed to an incredibly "evangelical" church of sorts - so now she even gets upset if women wear pants. I figure - "she is a full moon Aries and strong as a ram" She also just turned 91 years, so I am thinking she aint gonna change much LOL...

posted April 28, 2004 04:57 PM            

I notice that you typed out words that were very offensive to American Indians in order to explain their meaning so people know just how nasty they really are. I also noticed that you used the words

quote:

---

*words deleted*

---

posted April 28, 2004 05:21 PM            

I initially had a list of the derogatory words, but I later erased them but I did forget that I used two words listed above when I related an incident that occured to me.

I also repeated the word Injun and squaw, because again, they related to an incident involving me.

As to the other words, I really don't feel comfortable using them because I am not Asian or African American and therefore not only have I never been called those words, I can never understand the true impact of those words as they are felt directly as would an Asian or African American.

Does that make sense? It is kind of like - if it applies to me or has been used against me I can say it when relating a story - but otherwise I don't feel it is right to repeat them.

The first time I was ever called a beaner I asked my dad what it meant. True to his quick cappy wit he said "Well my dear, do you like refried beans and tortillas?" I said "Oh yeah"!!! and he said "Okay, so then you love to eat beans?" "OF COURSE!!" I smiled and laughed..'Well, okay then - you are a beaner and should be proud"

Later on when those same bullies called me a beaner I said 'Oh yeah, well beaners are cool and I would rather be a beaner that a big fat weiner". I didn't realize that a weiner meant the male member I was thinking more along the lines of the walking hotdog dude..LOL..then again, I was only about 6 or 7.

posted April 28, 2004 06:54 PM            

The other part of the reason I ask is that I know that a huge deal has been made out of the N***** word by Black Americans, and rightfully so, even if some use it to describe themselves sometimes. It's a word that's been thrown at them to imply something awful and if they feel comfortable switching it around between themselves then I think that's great. Homosexuals also use a pink triangle at times to express themselves, and that was used to "mark" them during the Holocaust by the Nazis in the same way that the Jews were "marked" with a yellow star. I can totally understand why some people would avoid the symbol at all cost, and others would try to reverse the meaning and keep it as a reminder of what they've been through. It is a very personal choice, in my opinion at least.

The odd thing is, for me anyway, I have met a fair number of people who are not Hispanic that don't use the N***** word at all because it's so offensive but they still don't mind using other racial slurs like S*** or w******. Sheesh, some people will still even refer to Italians as W**** without a second thought. Some will still even used K**** to refer to Jews. And I've never understood it. Seriously.

I don't mean to imply that I thought you were like this. It's just that the whole issue to me has been very curious since I noticed it and I like to hear everyone's side. Again, you were not being offensive only explanatory, and have also been attacked by those words so I can totally understand you using them in this context.

******

Another interesting thing I've also noted is the mascots for FSU and the Cleveland Indians. I don't know why they got those mascots or whatever, but I saw a documentary once about those teams and a group of Indian Americans [wish I could remember the tribe(s)] were speaking out against it. They pointed out that Black Americans spoke out against portrayals of themselves as ... well, as the lady that used to be on the "Aunt Jemima" syrup brand. There were also garden gnome type statues of Blacks that were put out on lawns and such that had very exaggerated features, etc. The old stereotype of Mammy from "Gone With the Wind" ... (I use the word because it is actually the character's name in the book and the movie.) Notice that there aren't anymore of those things around and even the "Aunt Jemima" syrup lady has changed.
Well, these American Indians were saying that it is wrong to have a race/religion as a mascot for a team. I tend to agree. They point out that there are no other racial mascots nor are there any religious mascots ... and that Indians are, like Jews, people that are closely knit by their race and religion. Not only that, they were supremely offended that during the Half time show at ... I believe it was FSU ... games the person dressed in Indian garb actually wears a real authentic Chief's headress, which is linked entirely not only to status within the tribe but also to religious beliefs/spirituality and that it is a great honor to wear one in their tribes. They point out that no one is running around on a football field dressed as rabbis or priests, etc. The school was interviewed about it and replied that it was done with honor and out of respect, but the Indians said that was baloney and that doing a teddy-bear or other cheerleading move while wearing a Chief's headress is the last thing from respectful. I was very, very disturbed by this documentary and I wish that I could remember the name of it and who ran it ... it had to have been PBS or WLRN back in Miami but I haven't been able to locate it.

If you made it all the way down here, what do you think about this issue pidaua, and everybody else?

posted April 28, 2004 08:50 PM            

Pid, I was thinking about the similarities in our charts, and had to add that my Aries sun is in the 9th house, the house of Sag.

posted April 29, 2004 09:29 AM            

I am happy that you felt comfortable to express yourself and ask questions about my intent. I didn't feel on guard at all with explaining the race part of the words.

As far as the Indian Mascot thing, well I am torn. On one hand a Team being called Warrior or Brave signifies honor and might. Whereas being called "Indian" or "Redskin" really is the equivalent of a derogatory name. I try to live by the "choose your battles" way of life. Personally, I would like to see AIM (American Indian Movement) launch an attack on getting the name changed of the Washingon Redskins - to me that is the MOST derogatory name around - and you may be thinking of Sherman Alexies (He is a hoot) talking about teams where he said it is the equivalent of calling a team the Washington N* word or the San Francisco White Guys with no Rhythm..(LOL - he has a great book called "The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fist Fight in Heaven").

If we can effectively change the name of the Redskins - then others will follow suit, but to attack every tiny school or University is just spreading ones recourses too thin.

Although I am Hispanic / German and American Indian - I would still be loathe to use any of those derogatory words to describe anyone of that origin.

Lalalinda,

You will love this story too...I never knew what the term wet**** meant and I was too afraid to ask because I noticed how upset people got when I heard the word. My Sag brother asked me what it was one time and if we were wet*****. I said - I think it is because you sweat when you work in the yard, like dad does when he is picking weeds. I thought it dated back to when my dad had to work in the fields and their backs became wet from the sweat.

It was in my late teens that I heard a Mexican comedian make a joke about swimming across the Rio Grande...I was floored. Needless to say, I had to explain to my brother what it really was. Maybe it is his Scorp moon, but he said "Duh, I just thought you were a bit dumb". LOL....

Trillian,

You and I do have alot of the same energies in our charts, which is why I can really identify with where you are coming from. It is amazing, but I have found that in the last year, I have become more of my Sag / Aries self and I have had more Sag and Aries people come into my life. It is a great blessing.