posted March 10, 2005 07:40 PM              

The same could be said about me and men, I find it hard to respect men, for the way they force women to get their attention through flowers, candy, money, withholding or demanding sex, victimhood, or verbal abuse.

But that's the game isn't it? People are every level manipulative and selfish, love is selfish, it's about showing a bit of you and demanding some love at the same time. Some people want a set of keys to a new car, a new house with you standing in the doorway with open arms to know they are loved, some people just want the open arms

Swerve I've said it before,
look for the red road,
bleeding hearts are not always obvious, you have to make your intentions known, say what you want, the big thing that you want from a woman up front, and personal and let her say No, or Yes, then you will never get hurt, no misunderstandings, if you want her romantically tell her so, if you want a friend tell her so,
if you want to live with her
Tell Her So,

Don't lose sight of your own Needs, or you will be devalued.

From one who has been very bitter,
bitterness is a corrosive fluid that can't keep you alive, but some people are full of it. You can't be mean to these people because you just feed their need for more bitterness, hurting yourself.

Let this girl go with Love, Applaud her Act,
Tell her Good Luck with It
Wish her luck on her road to maturity, but you touched her life and it's time to move on to another woman with more water planets.

Look carefully at a woman's Neptune, Neptune is like Venus, it's the planet that says I like women, I like being a woman. If the Neptune is badly aspected, she will be down on herself, Neptune, is the planet of motherhood almost more than the Moon, because it stands for the collective mother, everyone she knows-what other women think.

If her Neptune is badly aspected by her Sun, she will need to feel more in touch with her feminine side, look to Neptune especially since you are a Pisces.

In addition hard aspects to Venus, or Venus aspecting Uranus will make intimacy a little tougher, and take longer to build.

Cancer is a very competitive sign, and not as comfortable with aggression, the men Cancer women choose are always emasculated. (slightly under her thumb) You are happy with yourself as a man, and I don't suggest weakening your intellect.

Look for a more secure and discreet lady,

posted March 11, 2005 02:16 AM              

A couple of those things you said up there hit home for me:

My Neptune is in Cappy, opposing Mars, my MC, and my Asc. (!)

Would Neptune trining Venus and sextile Pluto make things any less turbulent?

Also, you mentioned a badly aspected Uranus and Venus. haha...hit home again.

My Uranus is in Sag opposing the Sun and Mars (!).

However, it trines Venus and sextiles Jupiter???

Donno what to make of that! Some pretty strong hard aspects as well as trines in there. I think my romantic life is quite polar opposite to my rational side, it is very difficult for me to keep the balance and maintain it alongside everything else. So I have reverted to focusing on my solid achievements, which is much easier with my second house Moon (in scorp), and my strong ambition (which is way stronger than most mens) and work ethic... I guess it keeps me normal, if I try to think about love or marriage for myself it upsets me greatly after the relationships I've been through. The concepts are just absolutely traumatizing for me to initiate! I may be able to tolerate thinking about it even but I immediately distance myself from anyone who trys to 'hit' on me. Thats mostly it anyways, no deep connections, just casual offers for dates and physical attraction is what gets people going. The bad thing about Libra rising , I guess--most people take you at face value for your appearance, none want to delve into the complex interior issues, too much for them to deal with.

Any insight would be much appreciated, since you seem to have pretty concrete views on most aspects, and clarification would be divine at this moment (!).

posted March 11, 2005 02:17 AM              

Neptune opposes MC and squares Asc.

that would make sense now wouldn't it?

posted March 11, 2005 04:45 AM              

Watching from the sides, questioning and analysing I have seen how it works. Quick question - by destroying a player don't you become one? The examples you gave me of the men who played those games seemed very crude and obvious. I know people who would make you question yourself without you even knowing where it came from. I have seen some of the best in action, and while the girl becomes loved up the way they describe her when she isn't aroud is less than savoury. Maybe this way of thinking doesn't bother others the way it does me.

I personally think I just have/had an idealised view of relationships, probably from the fact that my Mum brought me up on her own, was a disillusioned Double Cancer who tried to let me beleive the world is a lot cosier and safe than it was. Now, I wasn't brought up in the nicest of areas or with the nicest of company so reality clashed with my perception of how things should be.

With the Cancer girl, it wasn't all compliments and hearts, I am a Triple water, 2 parts Scorpio, Aquarius Venus and Mercury, does that sound like someone who would have meaningless conversations with sugar-sweet sentimentality. I'm not angry with her, she hasn't done anything wrong and doesn't owe me anything, I'm not that arrogant in reality. I'm more annoyed with my own lack of ability to decipher what is what in these games, thats all. Very confusing.

I know the problem lies within, and its an inability to detach myself adequately and approach the "game" like anyone else, without resentment and actually looking forward to it. Just doesn't jive with me at all. Seems so shallow and superficial. But then this again is my fault as I instantly "know" people and can dive into emotions and peoples psyches immediately. My perception of the word is vastly different to most others, hence reaction and emotions are too. And I don't for a second mean "better",just different.

There was an element of deliberate provocation regarding my comments on the "game" to see what the opinions were out there, so for this I apologise as it may have seemed like an attack on the fairer sex. Not so. But, I was being honest when I said this is how things work. And I stand by that. The evidence is far too overwhelming, plus science backs it up too!

Secret Garden - Most of my friends come from the roughest "hoods" in London, East and South. They live the thug life and treat women like...well you know what. And the girls love them for it. When they get a serious girlfriend however we always get to know each other as I am trusted by the other boys not to try it on, unlike each other! The girls tell me that at first I seem to be a little unsure of myself in comparison and this makes them question me. But over time they see that my strength is hidden and more potent than the others. I am the honest one the others respect for not getting "involved". I have run with and watched the fiercest lions hunt, but never joined in the feed. I am a metaphorical and literal vegetarian, and only those girls who lack vision equate that to weakness, which is where I wonder if I should just take what I want from them as the others do. If I am not intentionally hurting them and they actually admire the guys who do this to them is it wrong?. The boys wouldn't ever describe me as weak. I guess this is another part of the frustration. Involved, but not involved.

I'm not sure who I really am or what I am really saying has come across too well here so far with some of you who don't know me so well. Maybe thats indicative of something. I'll have to mull that one over.

Thanks for the other replies too ladies, I did say I was jaded!

posted March 11, 2005 10:21 AM              

Secret Garden, do you have Mars opposite Neptune? Do the men in your life have Neptunian problems, or are they devoured up by women or Neptunian occupations? Do you, live by the ocean, or water, are you attracted to the idea of a powerful Mars type in the opposite sex, but prefer to live with someone more stable?

Mars rules men, so your men would have a Neptunian flavour, you search for a truly Mars type man to counteract that, it makes you more stable, and you respect that, but you are still attracted to and need the Neptunian side or else you can get bored.

Physically are you quite strong?

posted March 11, 2005 03:13 PM            

Simply put, yes I was a player..big time. But I played with emotions, never took financial gain from them. I learned from the best, my dad was / is a charmer..already on his 4th wife- he never felt guilt about cheating, only about losing my brother and I- so he made a horrible husband but a terrific father.

I know the subtle nuances of a player..the sly comments that on their own may not be taken, at firt, as an attack on ones confidence - but they are little nicks into the persons self-esteem that result, over time, in a total loss of that self-esteem.

I only gave you generalizations- sweeping conclusions. The Sag that was good at undermining my confidence was not blunt. He would do little things. Like when I tried to help him on his paper (for HS English) he just patted me on the head and said "Ahhh...that is so cute..coming from someone in taking poetry instead of English".

LMAO...he was bitter because I had already surpassed the required English classes and was taking advanced British Literature (a college course in the 12th grade).

They can be just little things. Like getting undressed in front of a loved one and they squint and give you a look. You say "What is wrong?" They say nothing..but then make a comment about "Hmm, maybe we should think about doing a bit of hiking".

I learned early how to get into someones head and find their weaknesses. It is WRONG..but after my experience with that Sag (and a few other things)- I felt guys were just free game (even if I didn't sleep with them). It felt good to play them and I looked for known players- kind of a revenge thing.

Then I just stopped..I realized how horrid it was to play on people, even people that were considered rude, callous..etc.. it was just plain wrong.

In college a good looking Basketball recruit from Los Angeles came to my uni. We were from the same state- but about 60 miles apart. He asked me "So, why is a beautiful woman like you single"..

I said "I just haven't found the right one that can really keep my interest. Until then I will just enjoy myself".

He laughed and said 'Spoken like a true player"...he should know..he played about 15 women in his first year. We never went out LOL..we had an "understanding" he didn't get into my game and I left his alone. He was hot though.

BTW...I didn't mean that you hated women, only that you seemed to be getting bitter over some of the recent experiences. I don't blame you, we all have to go through that, pick ourselves up and then go on. It is a basic right of passage. LOL... Please don't ever lose that pure part of you..you are not weaker for being open and loving, you are stronger. Emotions and the ability to love totally is much more of a strength that to be able to "detach".

posted March 12, 2005 03:03 AM              

If you belong to the same, traditional pure love group, all I Can say is, yes the people with the dirty tricks usually pull ahead but so what? Success isn't measured by results, its measured by method, and what I mean by method is whether or not you follow your principles. At the end of the day we are accountable only and only to our conscience. You can ignore it, for years, but it won't go away it will eventually come back to bite u in the butt. So if you are following your principles, and these principles are what you consider moral, then to hell with all the immoral people who get ahead, because they will have to answer about it to themselves and not you or me. Good for them, or sucks for them, depends on how you look at it. Either way its not our problem.

If those girls are going after those kinds of guys, aren't you glad you know who they are now so you didn't have to get into a relationship with them to discover they are not the right ones for you as they hold different moral priorities?

Not all girls are alike. The fact that so many women are arguing/debating against these points you brought up does not imply your inability to express properly your opinion and neither does it imply that we are not understanding your words. It simply means that we understand, and you understand, but we disagree. Because we see fault in your generalization.

Sure I know girls who do what you're talkin about. But so what, I'm not one of them and no one could make me that way because I am inherently not that. No use lamenting or celebrating, I Just have to accept it. You have to accept who you are and what kind of woman you need and go look for her in the right places instead of mulling over the girls who are going for the 'bad boys'.

It is easier said than done, but it is at least a prescription for a step in the right direction (!).

Anyhow a long arse reply to a not even asked qs.

posted March 12, 2005 03:03 AM              

I am not so physically strong but I know my body reactions to all sorts of foods, clothes, medicines extremely well; I will know how much my body can take way in advance, I would say my body is strong in terms of immune system (although I have allergies I never let pain really get to me), but I am not physically strong in the sense of being able to carry large amount of weight, etc.

Neither am I particularly agile or athletic. Couldn't hit a ball with a bat if my life depended on it (unless we're playin cricket and the guys are bowlin girly style to me which is a diff story )

I don't know exactly what you mean by Neptunian problems, but for example, my brother and uncles have drug abuse and alcohol problems (even though this is total taboo in our religion and culture). My ex hubby had cig addiction probs as well; My ex Leo/Aqua that I was telling you about, I don't think he had any substance abuse probs but he did have a lot of problems with deception, either being deceived or being deceiving himself. He had a sh*tty past so I think he became cunning because he felt it was needed to overcome the world...a shame because it destroyed his sweet personality, another one bites the dust, oh well, I am still always there for him.

Deception is a main theme in my life (!), my father, brother, etc. have always been doing crazy bizarre WRONG things behind everyones backs and we find out way later. A male relative of mine killed and buried his wife and told people she went back home to visit her parents (in a far off village) for years, no one knew, until the male relative died and the woman was discovered there. Its a long story but very grotesque. Anyhow you can see the trend. Most men in my family, either immediate, or my significant others, have been either liars, or deceptive,

I live in California but not very near the coast or ocean...I hate water and I hate oceans, rivers, etc. Water freaks me out faster than anything except the dark and open windows in combination.

I see all sorts of deceptive women walking away with the men in my life all the time. It has come to a point where I am very very wary of women's motives, I am happy being myself and dont want any womans help because all of them near me have always wanted something in return, or have been trying to use me to satisfy their ego (my mom) or other reasons....

My relationships with men are just fine, communication is great, theres a wonderful connection, but they all turn out to be liars, even if they are so they still have a hard time letting go of me. They will walk out on me with another woman but still want to come back to me for SOMETHING which I have not till this day understood what it is (to eliminate the answer popping in yalls heads, its not sex since its never been something I've provided any of my sig. others).

I do search for a Mars influenced male, I do need a passionate man who will understand my passion for life, spirituality, etc. instead of categorizing me as overthinking things and overfeeling things like most people describe me.

I crave stability.

I want passion so far as the person being loyal and loving me, but I want stability in trustworthiness and commitment.

These things are of ultimate importance to me.

A man's ambition or status is very important to me.

I am very ambitious myself and at a very young have acquired a lot of status/wealth because of my ambition and hard work. It is not gold digging: I have the gold myself. But I am unwilling to share it with some lazy bum pest, my man has to be even more hardworking and ambitious than me because thats what man is to me--if he must have a bigger ego than mine, then he shud have better accomplishments too. I don't compromise with just anyone you know.

SG

posted March 12, 2005 05:14 AM              

Pid - You are what we in "Blighty" call "on the ball". Very sharp, aware of the sublte nuances. I think that there are 2 main reasons why I was being such a knob temporarily. One, I am of course a little male-ego jealous of thhe action these "players" get - I'll get over that. And 2, I know how vulnerable I am to being played as in this area my instincts are unreliable as they are overwhelmed by passion, frustration and a tinge of loneliness. And I hate being vulnerable because I know how much suffering I can be made to feel. I can cope with it, but it wears your resilience down after a while, and a nice change of pleasurable feelings for a little bit is nessecary to cleanse the soul. So coupled with the fact I never really know the score in these situations until it smacks me in the face, its a little bit of a catch 22.

Oh, and never think I am judging you Pid. I'm wiser than that. I'm grateful for your posts, so thanks to you too.

Cheers,

posted March 12, 2005 11:25 AM              

I prefer to use the word identity rather than trust myself, but others understand trust better.

here is how I explained it to another friend:

People are truly “happy”, including me, when their delusions about themselves aren’t touched too much, however you can project your own delusions on to someone “I see you had a bad childhood”, and that is always appreciated-unless you have a sixth house influence, then you get picky.

I will not touch anyone’s analysis/projection of “me/ego” ever again, underneath I will protect my own stability (identity), and instead offer advice that sounds like seek exactly what you have now only slightly different (with me involved somehow of course). Radical changes in others, are too frightening. Possibly why Geminis get angry? Geminis like to think they are shocking and fascinating, so the only thing to do is act fascinated by their observations, even if the observations are about “possible” radical changes, or criticisms in your life! (remember as a friend or therapist, you have to protect our own identity and let the other person project their idea of what they think of you, openly. You have to do this to stay detached-otherwise you will want to fight it, get angry and get lost in emotion.)

This is why the start of relationships are so good, there is always lots of projection, rather than change that, why not let the other person keep projecting, ignore it and work on your own projections with your therapist. If you are getting someone to trust you, then let that person project, if you are trying to trust someone, keep projecting, there is nothing wrong with it, doubts and fears are not analysis.

posted March 12, 2005 12:52 PM              

instead I ask "Do you trust me?"
If I get a negative or unsure answer I know it's not time to be romantic..

That can change at anytime too!
Of course this question works better on new people, do you know why that is anyone???

Because after a while, you have to say
"I trust you"
very hard to say with a straight face if you don't mean it
Just being honest isn't enough, these days.

And everyone needs something different I know, but if you have to work that hard to find out why someone doesn't trust you, then it's best to drop it and try friendship.

It's a simple but loaded question

posted March 12, 2005 06:38 PM              

Thanks so much for the explanation, as usual you're always so insightful. Although I must admit your analysis of the trust/projection situation confused me for a while...I think I had to read it about 4 times to understand...heheheh but I do understand now, and you're right that a certain component of trust has to be there, and with complete SINCERITY, lying about the fact that you trust someone is the second cardinal sin in my book after the lying about the three little words in a relationship...because from then on you have, intentionally or unintentionally, gone down a path whose inevitable outcome is...breaking the other persons heart!

Now about the Gems being fascinating and shocking, I think most Gems do like to entertain that illusion, but its not true, we all like to think of ourselves not as who we are but who we want to be, and most Gems want to be shocking. But I totally can't see the allure in that becoz I'm so traditional and conservative in most ways, and actually shocking people turn me off major time. Except for my precious precious Gem gal friends, I really am so suspicious of Gem guys!

Well I would say that both trust/identity as well as passion are important elements for me, but maybe I mean something else when I'm saying passion? I like the concept of undying, constant love, and I like the concept of someones level of involvement in me matching my level of involvement in them; I hate it when one person in the relationship is obsessed with the other, where the other doesn't care as much, because I've been in that kind of relationship twice, once as the one that was obsessed, and once as the one that didn't care (!).

Maybe its difficult aspects with Pluto, I don't know....

I do really believe though that you have to project at least a little twisted, better version of yourself to start off relationships, after all its not concealing your identity but promoting the 'good parts', kind of like illuminating your best points as to what differentiates you from the next girl. If you know what I mean, everyone has bad character traits no matter how good they are, so you want to emphasize the good and minimize the bad instead of truly projecting your image which is your whole self one hundred percent. Of course once the person is in love with you they do discover the bad things, but if they are willing to tolerate it, then you've got a relationship, if not than it was never meant to be!

Swerve: thanks so much for your kind words, although I am really not all that (yeah right heck I am ). Well there goes my lame attempt at modesty!

It must be some recent transit--I feel particularly good about myself nowadays. And I really think you should as well, because you have something unique as well, you have some beliefs that are so similar to mine, I agree, yet different, that its delightful to read your posts... Sexiness is in the eye of the beholder and I'm sure whats sex to some is repulsive to others (lol), so when one is being sexy they risk being repulsive at the same time, although it may seem contradictory

I will reconsider the lapdance, but get back to you soon on that

You are no less sexy, because you bared what you really are--what you think, what your values are. For me thats sexy, because so many people hide what they really think.

posted March 12, 2005 07:31 PM              

"I do really believe though that you have to project at least a little twisted, better version of yourself to start off relationships, after all its not concealing your identity but promoting the 'good parts', "

I disagree with big time,
Because you have to project exactly what you expect to get back, if you want someone to conceal the bad parts to you, then that's what you will get. If you are looking for trust, not obsession, than it doesn't make sense to hide anything-unless that's what you want back. Discriminating about what you want to receive-

Examples
Man wants to know if woman is going to be sexual with him, so he acts sexy, sleeps with two or three women, and then waits to see which one will call him, show more interest-

Strange from the woman's point of view, but that's what he wants back, so that's what he gives

Woman asks a few men if they think she is fat? Waits to see which one calls her back, to say,no you are supermodel material.
She picks that one,

Want a man who is emotionally demanding and giving? Spill your insecurities
Want one who could care less?
hide them away and act like a sex kitten

You will always get a man, the question is what kind and what's inside the box? If you want someone to really know you, they have to get to know you and vice versa, before falling in love.

Otherwise, that's not love, that's obsession with something that isn't there,
Friends can always fall in love later, when people change their life goals.

Maybe a month down the road, I have a burning need to be with a man's who's funny,
so I act funny, get funny men,
now it's not working for me anymore
so I give off another image, explaining to funny man I want to be friends now, not love, not obsession. And he acts territorial and wants to be physical, and that's fine, until I stop showing interest in him, so he moves on to someone else.

All these projections, and passion are gifts we give away to encourage others to get to know us. They are not the key.

We give out these bits and pieces to attract interested parties, but everyone has free will.

My old theory of the woman attracting a man to come live with her makes more sense to me all the time. In prehistoric times, all we had to do was get the man or woman into the cave with us and make sure we weren't left alone.

We did the same things as today, flirt, make love, act passionate, project, project, the only difference is we did everything we could without "love".

Love was just another word for staying put.

If you want to associate the word love with passion, then passion must be what you want all the time. Then it's part of your identity and you must give off passion to attract it.

If that doesn't work, and it doesn't work all the time, you have to switch to something else, and the types that want commitment are looking for the work. Territorial types want to DO stuff, make coffee, make love. not talk.

in other words, you have to do everything and anything to show your life, get someone into your life to do the mundane things with you, not the passionate things, and that way you can how everything gels first.

Too often I get stuck with the passionate one who can't make coffee, or the passion fades and I don't know why? Now I know why.

Trust/Identity, build the trust, and the passion will build, it's not because you have become too familliar it's because you have stop trusting each other that the passion fades. ONce I really open up to a man and let him into what's going on in my complicated life, I always feel passion again.

So to avoid those who are not passionate, don't look for mysterious types who never bring you into their mundane worlds-look for the ones who do.
It seems to contradict itself but it works

I think this only works for water moons though!
Water moons are also blessed with amazing imaginations. I usually want to make love to the fireman putting out the fire next door than to my boyfriend, but I have learned that's not helping me, in fact it makes me feel less sexy.

Take Care Swerve this is for you too
Take a woman home, or go to her home and make her dinner.

Natasha

posted March 12, 2005 10:08 PM              

Love isn't or never even was staying put. For me its something thats inexplicable and I Want it to stay that way, if you can explain it than you know exactly what kind of person you are looking for but thats not true you can find love in anyone, so its not explicable it doesnt have certain traits. Passion, stability, etc. are all character traits I like in men not traits belonging to love in general.

What you said about acting sexy etc, I felt was exactly like what I said about projecting your good qualities? You are choosing to project sexiness, or funniness, etc. to get it back.

But sometimes opposites attract, no? More often than not if I act a certain way I will get polar opposite people attracted to me.

I am myself, I can't change, and I dont try to ,in fact I resent people who change for me or try to make me change. What I do want is someone who is naturally compatible with me and wants by true desire and not by duty to make it work with me; not to please or serve me, but to make it work with mutual effort.

No one has to make me coffee, I am a stickler for no favors, have enough of those in my life.

I like a man who can go out and buy me chocolate covered strawberries when its no special occasion at all, but usually when men do that that means theyve done something horrible behind your back and are saying sorry in advance. Otherwise its a part of the honeymoon period and doesn't last long. They try to change, but fail dismally. What I am saying is if they can project those positive things, and stay constant at it, thats what I want--I don't want inconstant people pretending to have superior qualities they don't. Its a different thing, in one instance I am with an honest man I want him to be honest with me forever, in the other I am with a dishonest man and I want him to be honest with me. Do you understand what I'm getting at?