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Author Topic:   Chiron in aspect to Jupiter
Azalaksh
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From: New Brighton, MN, USA
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posted October 04, 2005 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The following is from the book "Chiron-Transforming Bridge Between the Inner and Outer Planets" by Barbara Hand Clow:
quote:
CHIRON IN ASPECT TO SUN, MERCURY, VENUS, MOON, MARS, AND JUPITER
When Chiron aspects a planet in the horoscope, the aspected planet is Chirotic. On the most primary level, the planet aspected by Chiron is similar in feeling to a planet involved in a quincunx, i.e., it is constantly activated and being pushed to a new level of awareness. Specifically, contents in the subconscious mind related to past life struggles which are relevant to emotional responses for this lifetime are activated within the vibration of the planet that is in aspect to Chiron. For example, in a chart with Venus square Chiron, the native would tend to get involved in love affairs with individuals whom they had already experienced trauma with in past lives. On a more subtle level, aspects to Chiron attune the planet in aspect to "Chiros."
Chiros is the realm beyond linear time which is ruled by Saturn. It is the place where events in the here and now relate to the synchronicity principle. The synchronous level is our experience with congruences between this dimension and other non-physical dimensions. It is the place where we can find the interface between realities. It is the place in time where we can attain another plane of awareness by simply moving our focus to another realm. For example, it is the place in the psyche which recognizes significant meaning with another human that you've just met whether you know it is based on a past life contact or not. So, regarding a planet aspected by Chiron, outside events occur which attune this planet to higher consciousness vibrations in attunement with the planet in aspect. For example, natives with Chiron sextile the Sun will draw parents who try to raise the child in a good environment. Those parents also probably knew the child before. Jungians say the synchronicity principle is "accusal." To me that means the cause is not definable on the physical plane; the cause is coming from the universal timeless mind, the emotional and soul body or some other dimension which we haven't even intuited or identified yet. The planets in aspect to Chiron can resonate easily on all those levels. And regarding the "accusal" synchronicity principle, now that Chiron has been sighted, we are beginning to attune to the "unseen" causes. As we attune to them our bridge to multidimensional realms is stronger.
Planets in aspect to Chiron feel unstable at first; they represent energies which we feel compelled to experience and master. Chiron's role is to destabilize, to infuse Saturnian form with Uranian energy. The experiences related to planets aspected by Chiron have only really been pushed into action since November 1977 when Chiron was sighted. Many new consciousness programs, movements, and new paradigms such as I.C.C.S., Asilomar with David Spangler and Dr. Brugh Joy, Jean Houston workshops, and Chris Griscom's work with gold needles started in the fall of 1977, and readers should take a moment to reflect on changes in their behavior since that time. For example, suddenly in 1977 and 1978, people realized they could access emotions by going into places in the body. Your ability to resonate with the planets aspected by Chiron will be enhanced by a moment's reflection on what you were doing in 1977-78, because that is a major power point in the emergence of Chiron.
Aspects to Chiron are subtle because they push us to subtle levels, but Chiron is a knife-like tool you can use to dissect levels of awareness. You can utilize Chiron to sensitize yourself to other dimensions. Transits of Chiron are very critical and are not subtle, which will be discussed in Chapter Twelve. But, the aspects of Chiron to the planets and Nodes are subtle; like the emergence of a new shoot of a plant above a great root system. That shoot has great energy from the massive root system, and as you allow yourself to attune to Chirotic energy and eras, (a life force), it will infuse your system with a wonderful youthfulness, a sense of great hope. The resonation in the mind is also intense; these aspects are probably the key access point to the large field of consciousness presently not being used. We can only begin to imagine at this time the great potential of working with aspects to Chiron. We will not get this level by thinking, however, it only comes by experiencing.

CHIRON IN ASPECT TO JUPITER
When Chiron is aspecting Jupiter resonation with multidimensional realities is intense. Now that we are able to name this mastery expansion vibration, a whole new level of creativity and expression will quickly manifest for these natives. Jupiter is the physical home of the masters, the place in our brain centers which enables us to validate the existence of higher levels of vibration. Jupiter is the planet which causes us to feel the presence of the spirit; it is the place in us that perceives "the unmanifest," or that which is not in physical form, as identified by Chris Griscom. But these levels still have existence in some other dimension or form, and Chiron is the bridge between physical form/Saturn and multidimensional thought processes/Uranus. Aspects between Jupiter and Chiron enable us to perceive new levels, because Jupiter helps us to feel them. Saturn makes the form in consciousness, and Uranus activates the mind into perception, activating the neurological system into transmission. If all this sounds like space talk, be aware that we are on the verge of a stupendous consciousness alteration, and often the planetary archetypes are straight and true early indicators of the nature of the shift. The planets help us to put upcoming cycles into words. That is what archetypes are all about.
On a personal level, the connection between Jupiter and Chiron causes the native to react very strongly to transmutative energy forces and to feel great urges to reach other levels of reality. They develop very strong convictions as they mature, and they are very driven to communicate their beliefs. However, with the hard aspects, they may become overbearing and even have difficulties maintaining a firm hold on reality. They know a lot, and they usually encounter many years of being doubted because they cannot explain how they know so much. They can easily be overwhelmed by a personified unconscious inflation because the world they perceived from intuition is so much more luminous that they deny outer reality. That is, the contents of the subconscious seem more real than the everyday life and they lose themselves in it. As the Jungians put it, they are swallowed by the unconscious. With this problem it is essential to continue to communicate what is known, because someday it will be valuable in the world, and because inability to communicate separates the native and opens them to being swallowed by the unconscious.
Chiron conjunct Jupiter is a rather difficult position because the native does not function well with normal patterns. This native is a maverick with a superiority complex who listens very little to others. He or she feels radically different from others. In youth this native fixates on almost anyone who understands this disturbing inner intensity on that contact. As this native moves out into the culture, he or she feels uncomfortable with the peer group and birth culture and tends to be very attracted to other cultures and previously unknown people. There is so much projection upon these fascinating unknown new contacts that sooner or later the native is always disappointed in the object.
Three of my four clients with Chiron conjunct Jupiter have spent many years working with rituals of native peoples while being fascinated with the individual natives personally. Chart 15 is that of the priest who works with Native American rituals. The writer of Chart 38 is fascinated with other cultures, is giving to the world, but has many conflicts with everyday life because he resonates to his inner world so intensely. Writer Elie Wiesel has this position and is a good example of the dynamic. For counseling, it is wise to work with this native on projection issues and personality boundary tension, to help them to recognize the difference between the real world and their own inner contents while acknowledging his or her superior gifts. This complex may appear to be an ego block when in fact it is perceptual.
Chiron sextile Jupiter adds great manifestation powers to the nativity. Jupiter seems to ground powerfully when in sextile to Chiron, and then the avenue for Chiron's questing and guiding force is clear. Readers should note Chapter Thirteen, the natal reading for Chiron's discovery chart Chiron is in the fourth in Taurus, sextile Jupiter in Cancer in the seventh. Also see Chart 53. Chart 39 is the nativity of a very influential New Age consciousness publisher who has demonstrated great manifestation power coming from Chiron sextile Jupiter. Much of the success of his publishing has come from a key channeled work from a key woman in his life, which is shown with Chiron in the seventh, stimulating his creativity and fortune with Jupiter in the fifth house. The New Age harpist of Chart 36 is an amazing manifestor of her work as a musical healer with Chiron in the second. The spiritual healer of Chart 2 also has a sextile from Chiron/Sun to Jupiter in the third house, which is enhancing her communication skills.
Chiron Square Jupiter strengthens the will and the mind, and activates consciousness about social justice and freedom. These natives are revolutionary, but you might not notice it for awhile because they are subtle and refined while they are busy working on a very long-term and radical plan. They will be history makers, but in unique and imaginative ways which often involve magic or art. The consciousness is rather like Chiron conjunct Jupiter, but the square forces the energy into long-term manifestation. I find it especially interesting that both Carlos Castenada and Lynn Andrews have this position. Chart 22, astrologer, has Chiron in the eleventh house squaring Jupiter in the second, showing that her gift is manifesting and grounding astrology. Chart 17,
theologian, has Chiron in the second square Jupiter in the eleventh, which is indicating he is a prophet, that he knows how to ground the New Age. The death counselor of Chart 29 is interesting because he was blocked from giving his gift of Jupiter opposite the Moon until he unlocked a creative outlet—counseling people with AIDS—which unleashed his compassionate Chiron in Cancer. Until he found that outlet he wallowed in emotional trivia and boredom.
Chiron trine Jupiter activates nearly perfect perceptual skills from birth which will cause early brilliance and artistic success. This native is irresistible and easily finds a niche for successful operation. The world desires this native, but lurking deep within is a great occult comprehension of reality which may or may not manifest. Around the time of Uranus opposite Uranus, a test situation will occur which will decide whether this native will be just wonderful and successful, or whether he or she will suffer in the cauldron of magic to manifest the gift felt deep inside. If this native manifests the high energy of the trine from Jupiter to Chiron, great powers will come from Jupiter through Chiron. Chart 16, a writer/ecologist, has Chiron in the eleventh exact trine Jupiter in the seventh. He is known as one of the greatest minds of the twentieth century. Brooding and brilliant author Arthur Koestler also has Chiron trine Jupiter.
Natives with Chiron quincunx Jupiter have a profound understanding of the many levels of human experience and perception. They feel out of synchronicity during much of their lives because they respond to experiences in a more comprehensive way than their peers. Unless they find a vehicle for this depth, they can become very confused. These natives have difficulty with conventional structures because their own definition of what is possible is outside of structures. Charles Manson has Jupiter quincunx Uranus, for example, and he does not seem to comprehend the reason for conventional structures at all.
Chiron is insidiously calling Jupiterian expansion to a previously unknown level. Like all quincunxes, the only way out is to respond and consciously activate this rich source of stimulation to a new level but, how? Chart 40 is of a Jungian analyst with Jupiter retrograde opposite Uranus with Pluto retrograde forming a T-square in the third, in itself indicating his need for depth expression. It is so intense that he also publishes books on Jungian analytic work. The Jupiter is highly activated in the T-square by Chiron rising in quincunx to Jupiter. He is also very involved in the occult. He has a major stellium in the tenth house, and it is fair to say that Jungian work is a superb vehicle for multifaceted and multidimensional view of reality which otherwise might drive him completely mad.
Chiron opposite Jupiter stimulates occult perception to the maximum. These natives know about the essence of matter, the physical laws of the universe, and their minds are like laser beams into life. In the early years, this opposition creates great difficulties. The perceptions into the very core of existence are so amazing that this native seesaws between being completely ordinary to being a wizard.
Chart 41 is of a young man who has an exact opposition between Chiron and Jupiter forming a T-square to Venus in the twelfth. When he was six through ten years old, he drew astonishing pictures of the destruction of Atlantis with detailed composite beings and technological vehicles never seen before. Then, from ten to seventeen, he tried being completely ordinary, wearing Izod polo shirts, playing football, and being one of the boys. He could not bear to hear about magical conceptions of life, but he secretly drew sketches of beings from other dimensions that would scare even science fiction addicts. Now that the Neptune transit on Venus in Capricorn is finished as of 1985-86, he is beginning to try to manifest his occult brilliance through Jupiter by studying physics.
Chart 27, a Jungian analyst, has Jupiter opposite Chiron forming a T-square to Pluto retrograde in the fifth in Cancer. This native is the specialist in the wounded child field, and his chart indicates this is a fruitful avenue for his search. Chart 21 is that of the physician working on ways to chart the flow of kundalini energy in the body. With Jupiter conjunct Uranus in the twelfth opposite Chiron conjunct Mars in the sixth, there is no doubt he will succeed in this critical research.



Thoughts, anyone??

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AcousticGod
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posted October 04, 2005 07:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, Chiron. I take back all the nasty things I said about you. Squaring my Jupiter sounds quite in line with the rest of my chart and personality.

I do have one revolutionary idea. Well... I have more than one revolutionary idea, but only one that is aimed in a humanitarian direction.

(I'm even wallowing in emotional trivia and boredom. How fitting.)

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Gemini Nymph
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posted October 05, 2005 10:58 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm, I have Chiron in teh 8th sextiles my mercury and mars and quincunx Jupiter. I would agre with the dedscriptu of Jup quin Chiron for myself. I actually have beend riven mad by my inability to confront to this reality - it always seemed so shallow, anemic and deficient to what i long for that I alwasy felt if I adhered to it and it alone, I would die of so kind of existential/spiritual starvation. My recovery from my brakdown over the past deacde has hinged upon learning to see reality in a deeper, transcendent way and intregrated that into day-to-day life. I can't say I have that down very well, but I'm trying.

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Sun_Scorpion
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posted October 05, 2005 01:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice! Chiron in 9th Sq Jupiter in 5th here.
I definatly agree with that Zala! Wonder what it means with the houses?! I noticed the examples but it didnt have my houses!

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Sun_Scorpion
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posted October 05, 2005 01:20 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PS, I also have Chiron sextile True Node (Aries) Zala, do you have anything on this?
Thanks v much!

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dynamite
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posted October 06, 2005 09:45 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Chart 16, a writer/ecologist, has Chiron in the eleventh exact trine Jupiter in the seventh. He is known as one of the greatest minds of the twentieth century.

I have Chiron in the 11th trine my Jupiter in the 7th too. I always knew I could contribute greatly to the world lol

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Azalaksh
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posted October 06, 2005 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
sun_scorpion ~

Here's a thread about Chiron in the houses:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005866.html

And there's also a thread on the first topics page called Chiron in aspect to the Lunar Nodes, but when the book was first published in 1987 they hadn't fleshed out much of the nodal interps yet.....

'Zala

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Sun_Scorpion
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posted October 06, 2005 11:20 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks very much Zala!!

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26taurus
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posted October 06, 2005 07:24 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WOW, that's exciting......and quite true!

I have Chiron exactly trine Jupiter.

Thanks Zala!

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AcousticGod
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posted October 06, 2005 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow! Does sound fitting for you 26T. I don't know anyone who reads more about occult/new age stuff than you.

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DayDreamer
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posted October 09, 2005 06:51 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Zala

I have Chiron square Jupiter, and this interpretation sounds more positive than I anticipated it would be, so Im happy

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26taurus
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posted October 12, 2005 03:04 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi AG, it does, doesnt it? Something to look forward to.....

Hope youre well.

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sweetlibra
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posted March 09, 2006 04:54 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chiron Square Jupiter strengthens the will and the mind, and activates consciousness about social justice and freedom. These natives are revolutionary, but you might not notice it for awhile because they are subtle and refined while they are busy working on a very long-term and radical plan.

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oneruledbymars
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posted July 07, 2008 12:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for oneruledbymars     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
------"Readers should note Chapter Thirteen, the natal reading for Chiron's discovery chart Chiron is in the fourth in Taurus, sextile Jupiter in Cancer in the seventh. Also see Chart 53. Chart 39 is the nativity of a very influential New Age consciousness publisher who has demonstrated great manifestation power coming from Chiron sextile Jupiter."------

Just curious because I have Chiron in Taurus sextile Jupiter in Cancer in the 9th, is there anyway you could post what they say about this?
Thanks dude!

------------------
Aries Sun
Moon Sag
Scorpio Rising

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Geocosmic Valentine
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posted July 07, 2008 12:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Geocosmic Valentine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Holy Moly, Azalaksh.

I have Jupiter trine Chiron:

"Chiron trine Jupiter activates nearly perfect perceptual skills from birth which will cause early brilliance and artistic success. This native is irresistible and easily finds a niche for successful operation. The world desires this native, but lurking deep within is a great occult comprehension of reality which may or may not manifest. Around the time of Uranus opposite Uranus, a test situation will occur which will decide whether this native will be just wonderful and successful, or whether he or she will suffer in the cauldron of magic to manifest the gift felt deep inside. If this native manifests the high energy of the trine from Jupiter to Chiron, great powers will come from Jupiter through Chiron. Chart 16, a writer/ecologist, has Chiron in the eleventh exact trine Jupiter in the seventh. He is known as one of the greatest minds of the twentieth century. Brooding and brilliant author Arthur Koestler also has Chiron trine Jupiter."

So, he/she mentions that when the person who owns this aspect goes through their Uranus opposition, they will go through this...uh...thing. Well, I went through the 1st pass already and now it's going retrograde and I see other stuff going on in my chart that doesn't look too pleasant, including Saturn soon conjuncting my Pluto.

I am NOT looking forward to Saturn conjuncting my Pluto, so yes, some kind of test is coming up and around. Aaaaarrrggghhh!!!! Grrrr.

But it's all about soul development, isn't that right? At least I know to curl up in a ball like those strange little catepillars. I just hope that giant Monty Python foot of Pluto doesn't come down and crush me. But, very interesting description of the trine. Thanks for posting it.

Geocosmic Valentine

------------------
"Everybody is a star!"
Sly & The Family Stone

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AcousticGod
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posted July 07, 2008 02:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting blast from the past. I enjoyed it the second time 'round, too.

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heart cakes
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posted July 07, 2008 02:49 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey acoustic, i have the square too. i breathed a sigh of relief myself with this one. i have chiron squaring my sun, mercury and mars as well, and widely conjunct my moon, and trine venus. so this was nice, and made sense to me too.

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enchantress299
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posted July 08, 2008 06:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for enchantress299     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So far, out of all the Chiron aspect explanations, I agree with this one the most.

quote:
Chiron opposite Jupiter stimulates occult perception to the maximum. These natives know about the essence of matter, the physical laws of the universe, and their minds are like laser beams into life. In the early years, this opposition creates great difficulties. The perceptions into the very core of existence are so amazing that this native seesaws between being completely ordinary to being a wizard.

I have Jupiter (2'Sag in the 1st) opposing Chiron (2'Gem in the 7th) in a T-square with my Sun (2'Vir in the 10th).

As for the opposition... I've been interested in the metaphysical and occult since I was 8, and I have always been slightly psychic. I've had an uncanny fascination with and understanding of spirituality since I was young.

Oddly, it sometimes feels like I'm going backwards through life. Instead of learning about spirituality and gaining an appreciation for life and things bigger than me at the end of my life, I knew about it at the beginning, and it's the more mundane things that I have had to learn about. It's kind of weird to watch my friends learn about things I have always known, but then here I am learning about relationships and other things at a later age than them.

------------------
Virgo Sun/Aries Moon/Scorpio Rising

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted July 08, 2008 09:08 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
CHIRON IN ASPECT TO JUPITER
When Chiron is aspecting Jupiter resonation with multidimensional realities is intense. Now that we are able to name this mastery expansion vibration, a whole new level of creativity and expression will quickly manifest for these natives. Jupiter is the physical home of the masters, the place in our brain centers which enables us to validate the existence of higher levels of vibration. Jupiter is the planet which causes us to feel the presence of the spirit; it is the place in us that perceives "the unmanifest," or that which is not in physical form, as identified by Chris Griscom. But these levels still have existence in some other dimension or form, and Chiron is the bridge between physical form/Saturn and multidimensional thought processes/Uranus. Aspects between Jupiter and Chiron enable us to perceive new levels, because Jupiter helps us to feel them. Saturn makes the form in consciousness, and Uranus activates the mind into perception, activating the neurological system into transmission. If all this sounds like space talk, be aware that we are on the verge of a stupendous consciousness alteration, and often the planetary archetypes are straight and true early indicators of the nature of the shift. The planets help us to put upcoming cycles into words. That is what archetypes are all about.
On a personal level, the connection between Jupiter and Chiron causes the native to react very strongly to transmutative energy forces and to feel great urges to reach other levels of reality. They develop very strong convictions as they mature, and they are very driven to communicate their beliefs. However, with the hard aspects, they may become overbearing and even have difficulties maintaining a firm hold on reality. They know a lot, and they usually encounter many years of being doubted because they cannot explain how they know so much. They can easily be overwhelmed by a personified unconscious inflation because the world they perceived from intuition is so much more luminous that they deny outer reality. That is, the contents of the subconscious seem more real than the everyday life and they lose themselves in it. As the Jungians put it, they are swallowed by the unconscious. With this problem it is essential to continue to communicate what is known, because someday it will be valuable in the world, and because inability to communicate separates the native and opens them to being swallowed by the unconscious.

quote:
Chiron Square Jupiter strengthens the will and the mind, and activates consciousness about social justice and freedom. These natives are revolutionary, but you might not notice it for awhile because they are subtle and refined while they are busy working on a very long-term and radical plan. They will be history makers, but in unique and imaginative ways which often involve magic or art. The consciousness is rather like Chiron conjunct Jupiter, but the square forces the energy into long-term manifestation. I find it especially interesting that both Carlos Castenada and Lynn Andrews have this position.

Orb of 1°

Chiron in Taurus (3rd house),
Square Moon and Opposition Sun/Venus/MC/Uranus.

Jupiter Angular in Leo (7th house),
in aspect to Sun, Moon, Mercury,
Venus, Mars, Uranus, and the Midheaven.

Thanks, Z!

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Diandra23
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posted July 09, 2008 05:58 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i have the oposition too and feel like that:

"causes the native to react very strongly to transmutative energy forces and to feel great urges to reach other levels of reality. They develop very strong convictions as they mature, and they are very driven to communicate their beliefs. However, with the hard aspects, they may become overbearing and even have difficulties maintaining a firm hold on reality. They know a lot, and they usually encounter many years of being doubted because they cannot explain how they know so much. They can easily be overwhelmed by a personified unconscious inflation because the world they perceived from intuition is so much more luminous that they deny outer reality. That is, the contents of the subconscious seem more real than the everyday life and they lose themselves in it. As the Jungians put it, they are swallowed by the unconscious. With this problem it is essential to continue to communicate what is known, because someday it will be valuable in the world, and because inability to communicate separates the native and opens them to being swallowed by the unconscious."

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Cassy
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posted July 10, 2008 08:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cassy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very interesting!!

Chiron in Aries in 10th trine Jupiter, Venus, Neptune
Square Mercury
Opp Uranus, Pluto

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Mercury9
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posted February 05, 2009 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mercury9     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have Chiron in my third house sextile Jupiter..comments? I am going to study literature in England soon, very determined to succeed in that...


------------------
Your talent is God's gift to you. What you do with it is your gift back to God.

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Daysleeper
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posted February 10, 2009 04:01 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have chiron gemini in 10 trine jupiter aqua in 6...

Nice to read what they say about the trine...

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Azalaksh
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posted May 22, 2009 08:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
*bumped for this week's conjunction of transiting Jupier/Chiron/Neptune at 26 Aqua*

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DepTaurus
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posted August 02, 2009 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DepTaurus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the one for the cojunction is so right.

quote:
is a rather difficult position because the native does not function well with normal patterns. This native is a maverick with a superiority complex who listens very little to others.

thats true for me i dont function welll with things that are normal. i like things to be different i also have the conjunction in the 11th house of aquarius. i dont ever liten to people unless its something thats really important to me or to the person.

quote:
As this native moves out into the culture, he or she feels uncomfortable with the peer group and birth culture and tends to be very attracted to other cultures and previously unknown people.

i do feel really uncomfortable woth people my age or maybe its because i act alot older or its because i just see most people do stupid thing and it just does not appeal to me.

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