posted April 07, 2006 10:57 AM              

Pluto's s'posed to be associated with power and desire, and the transformation of our 'lower natures', right? Well, for a good few years transitting Pluto was conjunct my Sun, as it progressed, retrograded and then moved forwards again, and the only way I can describe my life during that time is - CHOAS. Complete and utter chaos. Half the time I felt like I was going mad, and each time I felt like I had a grip on my life, the rug would be pulled out from under my feet - again. Transformative? Well, yeah, I guess - in the sense that my life was turned upside-down and inside out.

It's the same with the Pluto aspects in my chart. I've likened it to being a lactose-intolerant chocoholic with REALLY bad PMT. (which actually isn't a bad description of me!

I've read all I can find about Pluto, BUT - it seems to me that a lot of astrologers seem to be missing the point. There's all this guff about it being our power planet, and people with strong Pluto contacts being powerful - or obsessed with power. And then there's more guff written about the transformational side of Pluto. BUT......

One thing I've noticed with Pluto aspects is that, having once experienced the obsession and ultimate destruction of the contact, the person has absolutely NO desire to ever experience it again. They may as well be dead to that area of life.

It's a weird sort of a cycle....initially, the person deeply desires whatever is suggested by the Pluto contact, will do anything to get what they want (hence the reputation for manipulation and abuse of power). Then at some point, the destructive side of the contact kicks in, and the person is forced to face his or her obsession (although the channel for this might be through another person, especially if the contact is the opposition, or Pluto or the contacting planet are in the 7th house), as whatever it is that is so deeply loved or desired is destroyed, dies, or is somehow 'taken away'. That's tough. Really tough.

And then what? According to many astrologers, this is when the 'transformative' nature of Pluto comes to the fore, as we are given the chance to rid ourselves of old obsessions and pain and gain greater wisdom, objectivity and self-knowledge.

Well, I've spoken to many, many people about their Pluto experiences ( and thought a great deal about my own, too), and one thing comes through, time and time again: 'I survived'. That's IT. No big transformation. No revelation. Sure, they're older and perhaps a little wiser. More objective? Well, if avoiding the area of life that has brought them so much pain is objectivity, then yes. If realising that Life is simply chaotic and downright b****y unfair sometimes is objective, then yes. But if the purpose of Pluto is to teach us objectivity, the consequences of Pluto aspects and transits seem rather like using a tank to crack a nut.

I know quite a few Moon-Pluto people who have had one great love in their life (not necessarily a lover or spouse - for my mother, it was the love and loss of her father), and, having experienced the horror of loss, NEVER want to go through that again, and so simply avoid relationships full stop. They would rather go without. As one Moon-Pluto person told me, 'I don't want that sort of emotional contact with ANYONE in my life. I don't even see my real friends any more, because I don't want to be involved in anyone else's life, nor have them involved in mine.' Extreme, but then Pluto has a habit of creating extreme cicumstances and reactions when he aspects personal planets.

It seems that for many, many people, the pain is just too intense to bear; and the choices for the Pluto person in the aftermath of Pluto destruction are limited. One can avoid that area of life as much as possible, but then one tends to feel dead and dried up inside; Life holds no meaning, no passion - although it holds no pain either. You can swear that that's the last time Life ever gets the better of you, and use the manipulative side of Pluto - at the expense of feeling desperately lonely, because you end up alienating others, usually. Or you can risk opening up again and making yourself vunerable, knowing that it's damn well going to hurt, with no guarantee that you won't get smashed to bits all over again.

I have yet to meet anyone who has proved the theory of Pluto = Transformation. Most people, talking about their experiences of Pluto (natal aspects, or periods of life when Pluto was transitting a natal planet or point) are bewildered - there's a 'Why did this happen to me?' theme, and even years after the incident / relationship / whatever, there can still be bitterness and pain. There do not seem to be any reasonable answers to Pluto experiences. Nor any spiritual answers, however much New Age types and some astrologers like to think there are.

I think that we're still a long, long way off from understanding Pluto - if this energy can really be understood at all. It seems entirely arbitrary and UNFAIR, and for sheer b*****dliness Pluto kicks Saturn into a cocked hat.

posted April 07, 2006 11:47 AM              

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Or you can risk opening up again and making yourself vunerable, knowing that it's damn well going to hurt, with no guarantee that you won't get smashed to bits all over again.

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- true for me as well, but the intensity is well worth it. (sun/jup square pluto, moon/mercury sextile pluto, mars sesquisquare pluto, pluto conj MC)

I think Pluto does represent transformation, the kind that leaves the basics you need and destroys everything superficial you could live without. It's also one of the planets that makes you ponder the *real* meaning of life. Believe in some kind of religion? Pluto will make you think twice about it. You were taught you should live your life this and this way? After a couple of traumas you'll be reconsidering. Point is, yeah, you won't get to live the version of life that goes without major disruptions, but then that's the script everyone else gets..

Let's see, I was born without a father (sun square pluto), had a highly traumatic childhood, never got along with my mother (moon sextile pluto), developed a few disorders (some 12th house involved here), ****** off a bunch of people (pluto MC?), nearly got myself killed at the hands of a psychotic stepfather and then had to endure a few more years of psychological abuse. Now that that's over though I'm starting to like my pluto aspects. They make everything feel very real so everything that happens to me seems to imply meaning on some level. My friends all trust me to a degree they don't trust anyone else (moon-pluto). My mercury-pluto aspect helps me learn things faster than I would normally. Jupiter-pluto helps in believing that your dreams could come true; mars-pluto makes sure I can defend myself if I should be viciously attacked. To conclude, my experiences with Pluto have been more fruitful than my 12th house ones and I still much prefer the former one.

posted April 07, 2006 11:55 AM              

re: plutonic post good one !

.. here are some prev threads on Plut.
* http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006311.html *
* http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004589-2.html *
i keep meaning to type out some plutonic times .. since i registered here
can't seem to get fingers to keys on the subject ..

posted April 07, 2006 12:21 PM              

pluto and saturn are _________ blockers - hence the transformation thing / finding the primal motivation and current to change takes blocking things we sometimes tend to run into the ground.

neptune is the ignorant party boy/girl - if the building goes on fire, they still dancing inside

venus is the uppity snow blower - meaning, despite whatever, venus swears by itself

chiron is the peak-a-boo master of disguise - or so he thinks on the disguise part - always popping up with different garbs but you can tell it's him - the eyes never lie or change

lilith is the ultimate b*tch in that whatever is going on - lilith keeps that facade that says, oh well, that's a shame - why did you wear that red shirt again?

jupiter is best at - no matter what you see or hear - i got better stuff going on in, for, with, to me

uranus is the ultimate wacky testerupper - it reminds me of that friend who is always doing some crazy mess like acting on a dare to eat dog sh*t off the street - without wondering what the prize will be.

mars is the ultimate drill sergeant - it is the one that says do it, do it, who cares, just do it, NOW!

posted April 07, 2006 01:00 PM              

I say this now, but I am on the verge of having transiting Pluto enter my 7th house. It's more or less opposed my Asc right now! So perhaps ask me again next year hehe.

Seriously though, things really are how you perceive them to be. As Linda G had said, Astrology implys, it does not compel! So if you see the pothole coming up (i.e. by checking Astro transits), and you're paying attention, then you can avoid the impact, by going around All the things that have happened to one during this life time have brought them to this very point of where they are right now! I think that is so cool. Hell ya it can be bewildering, but the trick, if you will, is to go with the flow. I am sorta rambling, and I know I didn't address all yer questions, but I hope my different perspective on things might help in some weird way

------------------
`Who are you?' said the Caterpillar. This was not an encouraging opening for a conversation. Alice replied, rather shyly, `I--I hardly know, sir, just at present-- at least I know who I WAS when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then.'
~Lewis Carroll

posted April 07, 2006 01:18 PM            

I have Pluto in Virgo at 27 degrees and it conjuncts my Ascendant within 1.5 degrees. The power is immense,but also dangerous if you don't take care with it. It's like fire, if you play with it or let it get out of hand, you can burn down a community.

On the other side, you can use that fire to cleanse, to throw out the old and bring in the new.

I have a super-tight square with my Sun in Sagittarius (25 degrees) squaring my natal Pluto and Ascendant. Power issues with superiors were always present in my life - but I learned to control it and bite my tongue. I have also learned how to watch, wait and then spring into action when I need to.

I have transiting Pluto in Sag conjuncting my Sun (it moved past my Venus in Sag- but that was also a neat treat). Pluto tore down walls, created turmoil..etc.. when Pluto tightly conjuncted my Sun and Saturn was in Cancer squaring my Moon, Uranus and opposing my natal Merc- I left my fiance, lost my job and signed a lease to a new place - I had no idea if I was coming or going anymore.

My heart, my soul, even my physical body HURT... but...I knew it meant a time of renewel. If we don't break down those walls and throw out that stagnant or toxic part of our lives, Pluto will gladly do it for you and in it's own way... it doesn't spare the heart or soul.

Then again... something better comes along. I am now working for a much better department in the county, making more money, I have a nice down payment to put on a house in 6 months and I am in love with a wonderful man that is the absolute opposite of toxic.

posted April 07, 2006 01:39 PM              

Now, the Pluto transit to Mars has me pumped up to make even more changes. I have the intense desire to make some BIG things happen. I am digging deeply, from my credit score (lol) to past emotional hurts to realizing my life ambitions.

posted April 07, 2006 03:30 PM              

I have Sun conjunct pluto in the 8th house natally within 1 degree. My life has had many times where i have had things turned upside down and everything seems to be teetering on the edge. After each of those situations i may not have really changed my life in a drastic way however i did learn some very powerful lessons. Now it seems t i have realized that when i combine my pluto power with other people who have strong pluto influences, that is when the major transformations seemed to start. My boyfriend has sun square pluto natally and we both have our suns in the 8th house.

This relationship has been the most challenging, scarry, frustrating realtionship i have ever been in. It also has been the most passionate, intense, soul giving experience i have ever had. Since meeting him my life has changed drastically. He seems to have helped me focus and harness that pluto energy instead of just letting it create havoc in my life.

posted April 07, 2006 05:18 PM              

The Pluto process is a death and rebirth process. Unfortunately, some people experience the death of all that they knew and decide that they can't handle any more. So they never go through the rebirth process. From that point on, life can become a kind of death, as they give up on trying to find meaning in their experiences. However, the Pluto cycle for all these people is not complete IN them (regardless of where Pluto has moved onto in their chart), so they still have the option to decide to learn, grow, and be reborn from their transformative Pluto experiences...if they decide to.

Transformatively,

posted April 07, 2006 05:51 PM            

When there is destruction of any sort, we are always granted with the option to move forward, retreat or become stagnant. If we choose to move forward, granted we will be doing it as a different person but then that is the transformative aspect of it all.

The power that one receives is, I believe, the power of recognizing that there is always a choice. I think that in itself is pretty empowering and transformative.

And when I say all this, it is not from a Rebecca-of-Sunnybrook-Farm standpoint (ie -being the eternal optimist to whom horribly rotten things have not occured) but rather as a person who has been through a lot of potentially damaging experiences and somehow finding the ability to make the choice to move forward...which is unthinkably hard sometimes.

We all have the strength somewhere in us to gather up our skirts and step over giant piles of you-know-what, even if we're covered in it (sorry, gross analogy) and the transformative aspect is incovered, I think, when we locate that strength.

Just some thoughts...

Love

posted April 07, 2006 09:06 PM              

Look at it this way - You walk barefoot through broken glass all your life, and your feet don't feel it at all by the time you're ready for playschool - You walk barefoot through broken glass for the first time at 27 years old, and damn, it hurts like hell! It cuts you! You're bleeding! It's not right, that you should have to do this! Nobody should have to do this!! But, you can't stop because you have to get to where-ever it is you're going. So, you just grind your teeth and GO. What are your choices? Lie down in it and quit? Hell, no. Feel the pain, and move forward, slowly, quickly, whatever, that's your call. Curse the experience and lick your wounds for as long as you like aferward. But, you will move on eventually.

As for your mom's dad dieing. People die. She'll die, and break someones heart someday too. So will you. Death is inevitable. It's not productive for the living to cling pitiously to the deceased. They can't move on until we do. Let them go. You'll want the same for your loved ones when you die.

It's not healthy to depend so much on another person, that you cannot go on without them. Pluto forces this lesson upon us. Luckily, not always through death of a loved one. Sometimes just heartbreak, or profound disappointment teaches us this.

So much more to say, but I don't want to ramble.

posted April 07, 2006 10:45 PM            

I share a generational Neptune/Pluto sextile aspect (Libra/Leo)…..

I liked what you wrote, jkxx:

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I think Pluto does represent transformation, the kind that leaves the basics you need and destroys everything superficial you could live without. It's also one of the planets that makes you ponder the *real* meaning of life.

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Great off-the-cuff planet definitions, amisha!!

And bravo, pid!

quote:

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It's like fire, if you play with it or let it get out of hand, you can burn down a community. On the other side, you can use that fire to cleanse, to throw out the old and bring in the new.

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Great observation, Love!

quote:

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When there is destruction of any sort, we are always granted with the option to move forward, retreat or become stagnant. If we choose to move forward, granted we will be doing it as a different person but then that is the transformative aspect of it all.

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And Tim, this is a wonderful take on Pluto transits:

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Unfortunately, some people experience the death of all that they knew and decide that they can't handle any more. So they never go through the rebirth process.

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quote:

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Pluto transits are handled better by those who have a personal relationship with him in their natal chart, than those who don't.

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I’m going thru tPluto squaring my nMoon, opp nJupiter and sextile nSun right now, all at 26 degrees. To say I’ve been thrown for a loop during the past couple months is putting it lightly. My Chiron Return was NOTHING compared to this emotional havoc! My bonds with friends and family, my mother especially, are being severely tested right now, and it’s been quite awhile since I questioned my feelings, my basic core self and values – but that’s what’s happening right now, and continuing for a good part of this year and next, since Pluto’s retro now and won’t be out of orb of 26 degrees until 2008 ….. My choice is to slog forward thru Love’s (gross analogy ) and get to the other side of this, ie Survive! Part of me is being stripped out, stretched, washed, and hung out to dry in the hot, merciless light of the Sun. Change is good! I had tPluto trine nPluto last year and I was transformed into a sponge: I learned so much!! I also had tPluto square nMars at the same time and managed to keep my ambitions and desire to rule the world in check And no one died at my hands!!

Katie, just curious here, but when you talk about transformation, I wonder what the word means to you?? It doesn’t necessarily have to be the extreme metamorphosis of caterpillar to butterfly, does it?? Merriam-Webster says “a major change in form, nature or function”. And being that transformation is such a subjective perception, how can we really, accurately, see the depth and breadth of our inner changes except from the perspective of a few years down the road??

posted April 07, 2006 11:47 PM              

I have had an awful relationship w/both my parents. I've moved to a point in my life where I have forgiven them both, but it took a LONG time. I have been told that my energy can be overwhelming (Pluto in the 1st conjunct the ascendant). I have spent many years afraid of my own personal power.

Finally, at the ripe old age of 34 I begin to love my intensity and power as a woman and human being. I see Pluto as a regenerative force and I see myself as one kick ass broad w/a hell of alot to give back to the world.
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I think Pluto does represent transformation, the kind that leaves the basics you need and destroys everything superficial you could live without. It's also one of the planets that makes you ponder the *real* meaning of life. Believe in some kind of religion? Pluto will make you think twice about it. You were taught you should live your life this and this way? After a couple of traumas you'll be reconsidering. Point is, yeah, you won't get to live the version of life that goes without major disruptions, but then that's the script everyone else gets..

Let's see, I was born without a father (sun square pluto), had a highly traumatic childhood, never got along with my mother (moon sextile pluto), developed a few disorders (some 12th house involved here), ****** off a bunch of people (pluto MC?),

posted April 16, 2006 03:38 PM              

Katie -

Pluto is one of those Planets which if not understood and respected becomes like a wrench in the Wheel of astrology.

Pluto has just started Transiting my 8th House. I have a Scorpio Stellium, and the Focal Point of my T-Square is Mars in Scorpio...

I'm sweating bullets!

But I mean, I do have some influences in my Chart which lends harmony to all this, such as my Moon in Cancer, my Jupiter & Saturn Conjunct in Capricorn in the 9th House, my Chiron in Pisces, and having Planets in my 4th House.

The mystery of it all occurs ESPECIALLY in Transits, because they trigger illuminations which seem to come and go...