posted November 23, 2008 06:43 PM         

"I don`t think anyone here should judge anyone else`s interpretation as right or wrong. All we can express are opinions and theories. And I`m just a little bit tired of reading that again and again, that someone is said to be a bad astrologer, or interpreting badly, or just plainly wrong or even stupid, just because he may not agree with someone else.
My words weren`t directed at Cristiname alone; I think labels like "wrong", "bad" or "stupid" have almost been becoming symptomatic for this forum."
I am in 100 percent agreement with you. That's how I feel about all this. I don't go around telling people that they are wrong,and I am right which Eris' Discoverer,Michael Brown said was what Eris was about in Greek mythology, creating discord by making people think their opinions are right and others are wrong. I notice there is this issue not only on this forum but among Astrologers in general.

Even world renowned Astrologer Steven Forrest(who has a close Moon-Eris conjunction) made that point when he talked about there is a Tower of Babel going on among astrologers. I agree with him 100 percent. It is a big problem in Astrology to the point that even skeptics of Astrology use that to argue against Astrology.
he talks about that in this 1 hour video, THE FUTURE OF ASTROLOGY. http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=iWN8kk1uVhM

That's why I believe that Eris might be co-ruler of Astrology along with Uranus. Astrologers have disagreed among each other with so much diversity before Astronomers argued about Pluto being a planet or not.

If you look at the discovery chart of Eris....Moon in Scorpio squares Babel' in Leo within 1 degree .......just a coincidence?
There is a conjunction of Mercury-Venus-Pluto in Sagittarius in the 9th house too. That configuration right there indicates the intensity,focus,power issues of values,thinking in the areas of beliefs,religion that can be an issue which could be resolved by transformation,elimination of viewpoints that may not be useful.
Many astrologers use discovery charts to figure out clues about what the object is about. I definitely do that.

"I used to really like coming on here, cause there was an exchange of ideas without judging each other, and I learned a lot on here.
But lately that has changed.
I still come on here, because I still can learn a lot here, and I like some of the topics, but the dogmatism that has been creeping into this place (or maybe I just noticed it now) really starts to annoy me.
It`s really a pity, because there are great astrologers on here and very nice people"
I like coming on here. There is a lot of cool people here,and that includes you.
Yeah...I am put off by dogmatism. I think that alternative viewpoints that can seem highly controverisal to the mainstream brings out a lot of dogmatism just like Barack Obama running for president and even now as he is elected. Guess what. He has Sun trine/contraparallel(bilevel) Eris. His Mercury,Pluto,and Eris are in a golden section triangle with a corresponding midpoint picture of Pluto square Mercury/Eris midpoint.
As for me, I think my Eris sextile Midheaven,quincunx Ascendant,and biquintile Mercury(ruler of Midheaven and Ascendant) reflects my own nature of having alternative viewpoints that are viewed as highly controversial to the mainstream that brings out a lot of dogmatism. My Sun conjunct/oppose Eris Nodes seem to point to past/present life karma in regards to diversity matters.

I don't like dogmatism. It is one of reasons that I am not aligned with any creed. I am not aligned with any religion. I haven't been part of any religion since I was 13 years old,and I am 37 now. I stopped going to church shortly after learning about theory of evolution in 7th grade. My religious,spiritual beliefs fit with New Age,Neopaganism,and Unitarian Universalism.
I wonder if I had pastlives where I was put to death for having alternative religious views or maybe I helped put people to death for having alternative religious views. During some pastlife readings in 1998 and 1999, I was told that I had pastlives that included being a torturer for the Spanish Inquisition, a knight that fought in the crusades that realized that he was killing people just for having different religious beliefs,a druid in the middle ages which would be considered highly unconventional as well being shunned for paganism and the occult. Evolutionary Astrologers This religious karma can be easily indicated by my t-square of Moon in Pisces (spiritual) in 6th (routine) square the opposition of Retrograde Saturn (conservative,rigid,discipline) in Gemini (thinking,communications) in 9th (religion,beliefs) oppose Jupiter (beliefs,religion) in Sagittarius (beliefs,religion) in 3rd (thinking,communications).
South Uranus Node in 12'04 Sagittarius is in my 4th house conjunct my Imum Coeli in 11'14 Sagittarius with retrograde Eris in 12'14 Aries in 8th trine that conjunction.
my 9th house ruler Venus is in Scorpio conjunct Mercury in Scorpio and square Mars in Aquarius in 8th. I consider Mars as co-ruler of Scorpio. I use co-rulerships in Astrology.
I also read that the kuiper belt object Varuna named after the pre Vedic God who was depicted with a noose has to do with judgment. My Varuna is conjunct Saturn,oppose Neptune,and square my Moon for a t-square. My Roman Catholic mother has a history of being dogmatic in regards to religion. She also told me that she wanted to be a nun when she was a kid. Growing up with her was like having a mother superior for a mother. At times,I thought about being a priest myself when I was a kid before my mom even told me about the nun stuff. Even now,sometimes I wonder if I should be a monk..especially when I am discouraged about my lovelife. My desire to be married and have my own family strongly outweighs my desire to be a monk. I am the type of person who is introverted and is use to solitude. I am also not into going out,partying,nor socializing as well as don't drink,smoke,nor use drugs as well as don't sleep around. I am not into sex like a lot of men are generalized as being into,and this could be because of high estrogen levels and lower than average testosterone levels that are genetic. I am very serious in nature. I am always reflecting on things. I am very introspective. I definitely want to spend the rest of my life with a likeminded woman who is spiritually oriented and shares metaphysical interests like me. Somebody I could even start a metaphysical business with.

but yeah...I don't like dogmatism at all,and I do my best not to be dogmatic. I try to say...hey..lets just agree to disagree...it's not a matter of right or wrong...or whose thinking,views are bad or others are good.

That's why I I even posted at the end of my first response to cristiname

the following:
I just don't put much faith in Regular Astrology any more. I am ready for some 21st Century Astrology. That's not a crime. That's just my preference. I just don't believe in a lot of the traditional Astrology stuff just like Reinhold Ebertin,Theodor Landscheidt,and even Johannes Kepler didn't.
I want a more Cosmobiological,Harmonic Approach with more emphasis on the astronomical coordinates. I want to incorporate the new astronomical discoveries.

I am not going to get into the Eris type of thinking "You're Right and I am Wrong" approach.
I agree to disagree.
We all have our own views,methods of Astrology. I would appreciate that we don't get condescending,patronizing and treat people like we don't know Astrology because we disagree with what a person says.
to each,his/her own

Thanks for your understanding,DD

You and I are definitely on the same page

posted November 23, 2008 07:13 PM         

I believe that Pluto transits are valid. BTW..I don't believe in cause and effect in Astrology. I don't believe that earthly events happen because of the heavenly body events. I believe that earthly events happen in a meaningful parallel to heavenly events happening. Therefore,I believe in synchronicity like Carl Jung believed in. I believe that's why Astrology,Numerology,Tarot,and other divination systems work. That's what he believed too. It was my reading about him and one of his books that led me to delve deeply into Astrology because he used it for insights into the human psyche. I even had Dr. Glenn Perry's psychological astrology textbooks. That's how much I believed that Astrology was a cosmic form of psychology. Of course,I have changed my views and believe that it's both psychological and karmic.

The point about Pluto not doing anything was never the point of my post. I did everything that I could do to express myself in a way so people wouldn't get the impression that I said that Pluto has no astrological influence. I even said that Pluto is definitely a transformer. I guess that I didn't seem to express that well. My primary mode of thinking is visual and not verbal too.

My main point that I was trying to make was that Pluto may not be the only object in Astrology that is about transformation,intensity,and other things that Pluto are associated with. I was expressing my views that Pluto's fellow kuiper belt objects,transneptunians could be also about transformation too. I didn't say that Pluto wasn't about those things. I never discounted the astrological power of Pluto. I was expressing my view that the other objects can have astrological power too,and they seemed to be stronger than Pluto in my life even though they may not be in other people's lives. Especially I consider that the other objects were discovered many years after Pluto was discovered. Therefore many years of focusing on Pluto's astrological influence has been going on before the other objects was discovered. I raise the issue "What if these other dwarf planets,transneptunians,and kuiper belt objects have just as much astrological influence as Pluto" as well as "If Pluto is treated as a planet, why not Ceres? at least astronomers made them equal as dwarf planets...what about Eris which is even a larger object than Pluto". I even included Philip Sedgwick's thoughts about all that stuff too.

I also was expressing that Pluto wasn't THE transformer in my life even though it is in other's people's lives. I never discounted Pluto's astrological influence. I was raising the issue about consider the astrological influence of Pluto's fellow dwarf planets,kuiper belt objects,and transneptunians. I have much stronger aspects to the other objects that I listed than Pluto when it came to not only natal, but transit,solar arc,and secondary progression. Ixion and Varuna are the strongest kuiper belt,transneptunian energies in regards to aspects in me as well as the 2 most transformative events in my life. I never said that this rules out Pluto being influential in the lives of others. I didn't make a definite statement that the other objects are more influential than Pluto. I was expressing my view about some consideration for the astrological energies of the other objects that could be just as powerful as Pluto.

Like I said before,

I just don't put much faith in Regular Astrology any more. I am ready for some 21st Century Astrology. That's not a crime. That's just my preference. I just don't believe in a lot of the traditional Astrology stuff just like Reinhold Ebertin,Theodor Landscheidt,and even Johannes Kepler didn't.
I want a more Cosmobiological,Harmonic Approach with more emphasis on the astronomical coordinates. I want to incorporate the new astronomical discoveries.
I am not going to get into the Eris type of thinking "You're Right and I am Wrong" approach.
I agree to disagree.
We all have our own views,methods of Astrology. I would appreciate that we don't get condescending,patronizing and treat people like we don't know Astrology because we disagree with what a person says.
to each,his/her own

posted November 23, 2008 07:38 PM         

I appreciate your sharing this stuff. I am sorry about your grandmother

I believe that all the transits that you mentioned were in a relevant synchronicity with your grandmother's death.

I am a believer that everything happens for a reason, and I believe that it applies to Astrology.

I definitely would not underestimate Ceres. It's mythological symbolism is very powerful..the connection with Proserpina and Pluto.

posted November 23, 2008 10:13 PM         

Grandpa was a very sensitive,emotional man but he wasn't the type to want to show weakness. He was the type that didn't take crap from people. All that stuff seems to run strong in my family. He had a tough exterior,but there was a lot of warmth,gentleness inside,and he loved his family a lot. He remarried a few years after he came back from Korea and kept my mom. She ended up being his lifelong wife and the mother of his 4 other children.
I remember him as a very loving grandfather who loved all his children. He didn't care about the color of my skin. He loved me just for being his grandson.

He was already sick with Hepatitis C with cirrhosis of the liver. He had retired and moved to California City with my stepgrandmother. His mother in law who was in her 90's happened to choose my grandmother as one of her 13 children to go stay with help and help take care of her. My stepgrandmother kept on working in the hotel business as a manager,and she would go away out of town for periods at a time. She was away when my grandfather committed suicide. He was helping take care of his mother-in-law. Then one of his sister-in-laws came and volunteered to help out, but she was sick too. So my grandfather ended up taking care of both of them. He was sick,depressed as well as stressed from taking care of his in-laws. My grandmother told me that my grandfather had plans to kill himself before by taking drugs. He ended up shooting himself in the head.

He was cremated and his ashes spread over the Golden Bridge in San Francisco. What is weird is that I wanted the same thing done for myself when I die, and this was before his death. It was like unconsciously picked up what he wanted or I just wanted the same thing that he did. Also I was feeling depressed a lot around the time of his death. I also was thinking about him strongly on the day of his death too,when I was watching the Super Bowl which started in the afternoon which was recorded as his time of death. His death brought my mom together. It led me to let go of my anger against my mom her past abuse. I felt really bad for my mom for her losing the only blood-related parent that she ever knew just like I lost the only blood-related grandparent that I ever knew. It's the Portuguese,Spanish side from my maternal grandfather, that I have relatives that I know. My aunts married blacks and had black children before his death. My mom was the first though with me. One of my uncles is married to a black woman and has children with her years after my grandfather's death. But yeah.....I only know relatives connected to my Portuguese,Spanish roots.

I couldn't help noticing that transiting Ceres was conjunct my grandfather's Moon with a little over 1 degree at the time of his death. Ceres is the dwarf planet,asteroid that is associated with nurturing and mother-child issues. He was definitely in a nurturing capacity with his mother-in-law and sister-in-law at the time of his death. It was trining my Venus within 1 degree, and of course..his death helped bring my mom and me together.I believe that Ceres is a lot more important astrological body than astrologers give it credit for.

I checked any Pluto transits. There not any close ones. There was a square to Saturn. It's not a personal planet though,and it was over 2 degree orb. There could be some midpoint picture transits involving Pluto,but that is too much to work to check out. There could have been been some midpoint pictures involving the other transneptunians,kuiper belt objects.

There was transiting Neptune quincunx Sun in 8th house less than 1 degree. However, not all astrologers believe in house placements. Cosmobiologists and Uranian Astrologers don't use houses like we do and they focus mainly on the 45 degree divisions of aspects for events and not the 30 degree divisions of aspects. They focus on aspects involving personal planets and points especially involving the Ascendant and Midheaven. I am starting to share the same views with Cosmobiologists in regards to hard aspects and events as well as planetary geometry in general.

My grandfather's alcoholism as well as overall strong alcoholic history on his side of the family is the main reason that I haven't drunk alcohol since 1999. Even before that,I wasn't much of a drinker. I was more like an occasional social drinker. A lot of it because I was in the navy where so many people drank alcohol and got drunk.

posted November 24, 2008 05:51 AM         

But I am calling you two hypocrites! You come here – on a general, traditional astrology forum, and basically put this astrology down – claim it doesn’t work – cos “you don’t believe in it”, which is a great and valid argument for anything, of course (not!).

Then you personally attack someone who offers a different opinion, on behalf of this astrology – but don’t bother to respond to the astrological arguments brought into question - since you, obviously, are NOT interested in discussing Pluto’s influence and interpretation – you’re are here to PREACH about your new and superior theory.

News flash: people make mistakes. Our interpretations, as humans, are wrong and biased all the time. That’s the basis of ANY argumentation – that two parties have different opinions about a subject and they offer arguments and contra-arguments. It’s implied that each party thinks the other is wrong – if they agreed there wouldn’t be any discussion and any arguments.

Saying that you invite and value DIFFERENCE of opinion and discussion AND reacting violently at your opinions being discussed and not accepted, turning the attention to a personal attack, away from astrological argumentation, is a CONTRADICTION. And that makes you a liar or a hypocrite, or both.

I never said anything about you as a person before, except that you're a human being. If that's what troubled you so much, here: I take it back. Sorry!

posted November 24, 2008 08:02 AM         

I`m not sure if your reply was directed at Glaucus or me, but probably at both of us.

" never called anyone “stupid” here. that's yet another false accusation."
I didn´t accuse you of that. I`m sorry that you got the impression. But I wrote in my reply that my rant wasn´t really directed at you, but more a general observation about what is going on on this astrology forum at the moment. And I have seen it happened, that someone has been called stupid, directly or indirectly, because of a disagreement.

However, you didn´t do that. I am aware of that.

" I never said, about anyone, that they are a “bad astrologer” – that kind of logical jump is uncalled for. And WRONG."
You said Glaucus had done a "bad interpretation". Of course everyone can make mistakes, as we are all human, but I`m not convinced that it was a bad or wrong interpretation of his experiences / astrology.

"But I am calling you two hypocrites! You come here – on a general, traditional astrology forum, and basically put this astrology down – claim it doesn’t work"
I never did that. And neither did Glaucus. He didn`t claim that Pluto NEVER signifies transformations, he just stated that he didn´t do it in this particular case. And it`s not my place to judge this.

In my own experiences Pluto has very often played a dominant role in transformative experiences. Actually I really have felt EVERY Pluto-transit that way. But that is just me, I am not saying that everyone would feel the same way and be affected by Pluto transits the same as I am.

I also think that there may be other planets or even other Kuiper Belt object that could signal a transformative time, too. In my case Pholus has played a significant role in very transformative experiences.

So I do not think it is a question of "either- or". I think both is true. Pluto IS a very transformative planet (I would never dare to doubt that in light of my personal experiences), but I`m sure there are also others, and I want to stay open to the possibility.

I also think that it depends on the natal chart if you are sensitive to certain planetary aspects or not.
In my own chart Pluto is on my MC, squares Venus and sextiles Mars, Neptune, NN and ASC. So, maybe that is the reason I feel the Plutonic transits maybe more than Glaucus feels them.

To me they are very intense, transformative and strong. But that is my personal experience. And I do not want to invalidate someone else`s perceptions / experiences, just because my own are different.

I had the feeling that was what you were doing. If that was a misunderstanding on my part I amd deeply sorry and I apologize for that.

posted November 24, 2008 10:55 AM         

Thank you very much for defending me and most of all understanding me.

Cristiname,

I didn't make a bad interpretation. I only told what I believed from my own findings and experiences. Just because I express things that don't concur with the views of others doesn't mean that I have bad interpretations. That's like saying that I believe Neopaganism works for me in my life, but I am giving a hard time by some Christians telling me that my spiritual,religious views are wrong because I am not expressing views that don't concur with theirs.
I never put traditional Astrology down,,and I didn't claim that it didn't work. I only said that Pluto was not the transformer in MY life. I never said that Pluto wasn't a transformer period. The last time I checked I thought this was a forum where many astrological systems are welcome here. This is not just forum for traditional,general. Heck...there is a lot of asteroid Astrology on this forum that seems very popular here. I am definitely into asteroid Astrology,but I am also into the Astrology of the transneptunians,kuiper belt objects too. The last time I checked there were no rules prohibiting anybody from expressing their views about Astrological systems. There are no rules barring astrological systems that differ from general,traditional Astrology. From what I see, numerous astrological systems are welcome here.
I have definitely felt Pluto transits too, but the thing is they weren't major in the 2 most transformative experiences of my life. I don't think it's a crime to say that. I don't think it means that I am saying Astrology doesn't work nor am I putting down Astrology. It's like me saying that Christianity or any other religion is not major in my life, but I am getting slammed for attacking all Christianity or other religions. It's like there is intolerance of other views in here...strongly based on ideology.
I definitely believe that there are other planets and Kuiper belt objects that could signal a transformative time too. That was the whole purpose of my post. It wasn't about discounting Pluto's influence. It was about expressing my view that it's fellow dwarf planets,transneptunians,and kuiper belt objects can have a strong influence like Pluto too, and it was even stronger in my life. I never said that Pluto wasn't strong period. I just said that it wasn't strong in my life. I hate that people are getting the impression that I was saying otherwise even though I never did. I only expressed my views about considering other bodies' influences too and not just Pluto. There is nothing wrong with that.
I don't believe in :"either" or "or" when it comes to Astrology. I believe that many astrological systems are true. Even world renowned Astrologer Steven Forrest said that the idea of "One true Astrology" is a myth that is dangerous,destructive,and easily blown out of the water. You can hear him see him say that in the video that I posted. I have been doing the regular Astrology stuff for over 10 years,and I have done a lot of readings/reports for people for many years. I have been very accurate as an astrologer, just doing the regular kind of Astrology. I just want to make changes about how I do Astrology by updating and being a more 21st century Astrologer,and that means updating it and incorporating astronomical discoveries like many Astrologers did when they added Uranus,Neptune,and Pluto to their systems after hundreds of years of doing Astrology without the use of those outerplanets. Now..that there are many objects that have been found that orbit beyond Neptune and not just Pluto, I want to work with them and add them to my system. Astronomers made Ceres and Pluto equals along with Eris as dwarf planets. They added Makemake and Haumea to that list of dwarf planets,and they are going to add more. Well...I want to add them to how I do Astrology. I want to work with actual physical transneptunians just like Hamburg School/Uranian astrologers work with transneptunians that are hypothetical. I want to work with more cosmobiological techniques and more focus on planetary geometry. My beliefs have changed about traditional Astrological methods,but I never said that they didn't work nor did I put down the system. That's like me saying that Christianity is not for me, but I am getting slammed and accused of attacking Christianity. Heck...I don't align myself with any religion. I don't like dogmatism of any kind. I am a free spirit when it comes to religion. Well...I am a free spirit when it comesto Astrology. I don't want to be pinned down to any type of creed. I think that a lot of people on this forum can see that I don't want to be pinned down to anything.
I agree with DD about the relative sensitivity thing in regards to astrological energies. I believe it depends on the natal chart. Maybe I am more sensitive to the other dwarf planets,transneptunians,and kuiper belt objects because I have them a lot stronger in my natal chart than Pluto is. Who is to tell me that they are not? They are not me. They don't live my life. Who am I to tell a person that a certain astrological body is not strong in ther chart when I don't live his/her life? I wouldn't do that. I wish I would be given the same consideration. The whole "treat others like you want to be treated" applies to Astrology too just like all life itself.
I agree with the view that Plutonian experiences are are very intense,transformative and strong. They have been in the lives of many people. I am well aware of this. After all,I have been doing Astrology for over 9 years, giving readings to people. I have seen how Pluto works. I always believed Pluto was a transformer.The point that I was trying to make was that maybe Pluto's fellow transneptunians,kuiper belt objects are also very intense,transformative,and strong. I never said that Pluto wasn't period. I only said that it wasn't the transformer in my life. Nobody knows my life better than me...so no astrologer can tell me how Pluto works in my life because they don't know me...especially I don't want them telling me to validate what they believe and try to invalidate what I believe. It seems no different from a Christian telling me how Christianity works in my life because it works in their life even though I don't believe Christianity works in my life but believe that it's a valid religion and very important religion in the lives of other people but just not in my life.
"I had the feeling that was what you were doing. If that was a misunderstanding on my part I amd deeply sorry and I apologize for that."
I believe there is a some intolerance of diversity of views in here. It fits right in with negatives of Eris.

To find myself being slammed for expressing alternative viewpoints is very ridiculous.

I just want to be a 21st century astrologer that incorporates the new astronomical discoveries into the way I do Astrology. I want to be focus a lot more on planetary geometry that include midpoints like the Cosmobiologists do. I want to work with harmonics more like David Cochrane is heavily into. I want to work with planetary nodes and golden section aspects based on Theodor Landscheidt's work. To me,they do work. People have already concurred in this forum that golden section aspects work. There are many ways to do Astrology just like there are many ways to worship,believe in God or some other major force,creator,or whatever you call what you believe in.

Different strokes for different folks.
To each,his/her own

Raymond

Michael E. Brown, a professor of planetary astronomy at the California Institute of Technology who discovered the distant ball of ice and rock that he nicknamed Xena, chose the name Eris, after the goddess of discord and strife in Greek mythology.

"It is absolutely the perfect name," Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

"She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else's is wrong," Brown said. "It really is just perfect." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/09/15/MNGS8 L67LJ1.DTL

Possible keywords for Eris -
Ideology,Diversity,Divergence,Equality,Sharing,Advocacy,Discord,Debating,Compromise,Agreeing to Disagree,Alternative Viewpoints, Seeing/or not seeing Eye to Eye.

Eris in Aries Retrograde in 8th oppose Uranus,trine Ceres,sextile Midheaven,sextile/trine Lunar Nodes,trine Jupiter,quincunx Ascendant,biquintile Mercury,parallel Pluto

Sun conjunct South Eris Node in Scorpio in 2nd

posted November 24, 2008 11:43 AM         

Based on Cosmobiology

Only conjunctions,oppositions,squares,semisquares,and sesquiquadrates
all aspects are referred to as (=)
all aspects are applying within 1 degree

interpretations are from Ruth Brummond's Rulebook of Planetary Pictures
I included interpretations for Ceres,Eris,and Sedna

Neptune=Neptune
- vulnerable. easily swayed. untruthful.
Vagueness; Ambiguity. Uncertainty. Deceit. Frailty. Forfeiture. Denial.
Neptune = N MC
To be deluded. Deceit.
Personal loss.
Saturn/Uranus = N MC
Unexpected difficulties. Surprising obstacles. Constant tension. Rebellion. Conflict. To reject stimuli or suppress impulses. To avoid risks. My provocation.
Mars/Saturn = N MC
Lack of resolution. Self created problems. Difficulties on the job. To retreat. One's own death.
Mars/Saturn = N Venus
To act in ways that disrupt harmony. End of a love affair. Difficulties in connection with sex

Mars = Mars/Pluto
not always trustworthy. ruthless. [exploitive or abusive when unevolved.]

Uranus/Neptune = N Moon
Sudden uncertainty. Upset over deceit. Unexpected ambiguity. Surprising sensitivity. Pointless excitement or expectation.
Mars/Neptune = N Moon
Covert action. Person lacking in energy. To feign emotions. To participate in deception. To reject work. Mistake. Loss of work. Inaccuracy in working hours. Danger of infection. Atrophy of the brain.

Ceres/Uranus = N Asc = N Orcus
mother-child issues in the environment connected to tension
Mars/Ceres = N Asc = N Orcus
violence affecting mother-child connection in the environment

She has Orcus conjunct Ascendant with 10 minutes of arc

Neptune/Sedna = N Mars
victim of violence
Mars/Node = N Mars
- pushy. ruthless. aggressive.
To force contact.

Uranus/Eris = N Uranus
unexpected chaos
Mars/Eris = N Uranus
unexpected violence

Saturn/Node = N Uranus
Unexpected delay in contact. Tensions due to a problematic relationship. Conflicts with each other. Unexpected difficulties in a relationship. Sudden separations or distancing from each other. Problems with associates in implementing reforms.
Mars/Ceres = N Uranus
unexepected violence affecting mother-child connection

Pluto=Pluto
Upheaval. Reversals.

I am definitely going to look at transiting midpoints for now on. The more I look at them, the more they seem to play a big part in Astrology. I will definitely pay attention to transiting midpoints for now on.

Raymond

------------------
Michael E. Brown, a professor of planetary astronomy at the California Institute of Technology who discovered the distant ball of ice and rock that he nicknamed Xena, chose the name Eris, after the goddess of discord and strife in Greek mythology.

"It is absolutely the perfect name," Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

"She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else's is wrong," Brown said. "It really is just perfect." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/09/15/MNGS8L67LJ1.DTL

Ideology,Diversity,Divergence,Equality,Sharing,Advocacy,Discord,Debating,Compromise,Agreeing to Disagree,Alternative Viewpoints, Seeing/or not seeing Eye to Eye.

Eris in Aries Retrograde in 8th oppose Uranus,trine Ceres,sextile Midheaven,sextile/trine Lunar Nodes,trine Jupiter,quincunx Ascendant,biquintile Mercury,parallel Pluto

posted November 24, 2008 03:20 PM         

I checked the midpoint transits to my chart:
applying transits within 1 degree orb

Transiting Mars/Pluto was sesquiquadrate my Moon
has fluctuating energies. moody. [exploitive or abusive when unevolved.]
Transiting Uranus/Pluto was sesquiquadrate my Moon
- unsettled. restless. hypertense. disruptive. [abusive when unevolved.]
Increasing emotional agitation. Erratic development. Vacillation due to tensions.
My Moon aspects:
squares Varuna - '10
opposes Saturn/Neptune midpoint - '17
sesquiquadrate Sun/Pluto midpoint - '04
sesquiquadrate Ixion/Pluto midpoint - '08
semisquare Mars/MC midpoint - '23
sesquiquadrate Venus/Asc midpoint - '33

Transiting Uranus/Neptune conjunct My Mercury
- reacts unconsciously. contrary. unrealistic. denies one's intuitive flashes. denies stimuli. confused.
Sudden absent-mindedness or unconsciousness.
my Mercury aspects:
conjunct Sun/Neptune - '14
conjunct Sun/Ixion - '18
oppose Saturn/Sedna - '16
square Mars/Node - '08
semisquare Venus/Ceres - '28
semisquare Moon/Sedna - '41
semisquare Sun/Moon - '55
semisquare Moon/Ixion - 1'00

I have Sun conjunct Ixion with 5 minutes of arc, and so Ixion is involved in any aspect,midpoint configuration that my Sun is in whether it's natal,transit,secondary progressions,solar arc,solar return, and synastry(using 1 degree orb)

Transiting Node was oppose my MC
Personal encounter.

My MC aspects
square Eris/Node - '08
sesquiquadrate Venus/Pluto - '05
sesquiquadrate Jupiter/Ascendant - '22
sesquiquadrate Sun/Uranus - '54

I was skeptical of transiting midpoints, but I am not any more

note: Ixion and Varuna are big kuiper belt objects. Ixion is a plutino,and has a similar orbit to Pluto. Varuna is cubewano and orbits beyond Pluto.

Transiting Pluto midpoints can be transformative similar to Pluto transits...especially in my case with the Moon which can reflected an emotional traumatic event and one that involves one's mother. note: both transits involved Ixion and Varuna by aspect,midpoint configuration.

posted November 24, 2008 03:44 PM         

when I looked at some midpoint transits, I was pretty floored at how exactly, almost literally, they describe that event and even my feelings and hunches.

posted November 24, 2008 07:56 PM         

And if you've already answered the question, please refresh my memory!

posted November 24, 2008 08:14 PM         

Ixion,Varuna,and Orcus mainly...they are strongly placed in my chart too and I had transits involving my personal points during those 2 events.

Sun conj Ixion with 5 minutes of arc
Moon square Varuna with 10 minutes of arc
Sun contraparallel Orcus with 1 minute of arc.

Ixion and Orcus are plutinos,and so they have orbits like Pluto. Ixion was named after a Greek King,father of the centaurs,punished for trying to get with Hera. Orcus is a god of the underworld which is known to be equivalent of Pluto, it has Etruscan origins. Varuna is a cubewano that orbits beyond Pluto. It's named after the Vedic god who was known for judging souls, was said to be a supreme god, was demoted to God of the Oceans.
this site has info about the KBO's http://www.philipsedgwick.com/

my Haumea,named after a Hawaiian Fertility Goddess is conjunct my Ascendant with 2'10 orb and square my Midheaven with 3 minutes of arc,.....that's a large KBO...4 largest minor planet.....

My Sun is conjunct Quaoar with 2'58 orb and trine my Moon with 49 minutes of arc.

it just seems the other transneptunians are stronger in my chart than pluto. they could be hard to isolate from Pluto because they are transeptunians...especially the plutinos, Ixion,Varuna could be similar to Pluto astrologically as they definitely are astronomically. I take the astronomical features into account. They are often connected with the astrology.

posted November 24, 2008 08:50 PM         

what if that whole Kuiper Belt region
has to do with things that are associated with Pluto just like outerplanets have to do with things that were once assigned to other planets before the outerplanets were discovered.

what if somebody can identify with being a Plutonian when he/she has it conjunct the Sun with 8 degree orb or have it square the Sun with 8 degree orb, but he/she actually has a KBO like Orcus 1 degree
conjunct the Sun, and maybe even Varuna in an exact quincunx to the
Sun.

that's what I wonder when I have Moon quincunx Pluto with 2'32 orb,but I have Moon square Varuna with 10 minutes of arc,Moon trine Ixion 2'10 orb ....Sun contraparallel Pluto with 46 minutes of
arc,but have Sun conjunct Ixion with 5 minutes of arc, contraparallel Orcus with 1 minute of arc

page 39 of article New Solar System in MOUNTAIN ASTROLOGER

Steven Forrest wrote

"In the future as more Transneptunians are discovered and understood,I suspect we will realize that we have made our interpretations of Pluto too broad, and that it's meaning is more focused than we
thought, and that the archetype of the Shaman will increasingly be seen as as the heart of the Plutonian matter"

That could be the case too.

also what about chart rectifications...

what if a kuiper belt object were making critical transits that astrologers didn't know about when they rectify charts? What if the birthtime was actually right, but they thought it was wrong because events weren't being reflected by astrological activity like it should be? What if it did,but it was reflected by astrological
activity of kuiper belt objects that weren't discovered yet?

those are things that I think about and consider

Raymond

------------------
Michael E. Brown, a professor of planetary astronomy at the California Institute of Technology who discovered the distant ball of ice and rock that he nicknamed Xena, chose the name Eris, after the goddess of discord and strife in Greek mythology.

"It is absolutely the perfect name," Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

"She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else's is wrong," Brown said. "It really is just perfect."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/09/15/MNGS8L67LJ1.DTL

Ideology,Diversity,Divergence,Equality,Sharing,Advocacy,Discord,Debating,Compromise,Agreeing to Disagree,Alternative Viewpoints, Seeing/or not seeing Eye to Eye.

Eris in Aries Retrograde in 8th oppose Uranus,trine Ceres,sextile Midheaven,sextile/trine Lunar Nodes,trine Jupiter,quincunx Ascendant,biquintile Mercury,parallel Pluto

posted November 24, 2008 09:20 PM         

I can definitely understand the pull of Ixion (13 Scorpio for me) as it is conjunct Quaoar (12 Scorpio) in my chart and adds yet another layer to my 1st house Scorpio stellium: they are conjunct my Moon and Venus.

posted November 25, 2008 05:58 AM         

While there may be people who ask proof of God’s existence according to their five senses, I personally don’t see any point in putting mind and reason against feelings and beliefs. Different systems, different sides of the brain even

the very fact that we meet here to discuss astrology says that there is an objective, common ground. Discussing personal beliefs and faith is pointless. For better or worse, there are certain guidelines that make astrology a common language. And that’s what I was referring at.

quote:

---

“Nobody knows my life better than me...so no astrologer can tell me how Pluto works in my life because they don't know me...especially I don't want them telling me to validate what they believe and try to invalidate what I believe.”

---

Since it’s your beliefs that this thread is about, I understand why you took my initial message so personally. I would never go near a man’s beliefs. That’s between you and your God or Gods.

quote:

---

“I believe there is a some intolerance of diversity of views in here”

---

Intolerance is a concept that works best in a beliefs’ context – like the religious beliefs that you speak of. To me, a forum is a place for the mind, not a place for worship. I wouldn’t go into a church saying their Gods are false; but even in a pseudo-scientific context (as astrology is considered), the rules of science, statistics, logic and so on do apply. That’s why I challenged your post – as I took what you said as arguments – in which I saw invalidating flaws. I am a scientist, and I know that hypothesis make or brake any argument, as the validity of any theory stands on its initial hypothesis. I would never challenge your faith and your beliefs, or your religion, certainly not with logical arguments. I see no point in that.

But please do clarify where you’re coming from for future reference. Any resemblance to an argumentation or demonstration of your new theory may invite contra-arguments.

posted November 25, 2008 11:18 AM         

my whole point and what DD was also getting at was

Just because I expressed certain things doesn't mean that I was saying that Astrology doesn't work or that Pluto doesn't work. It also doesn't mean that I am bad at intepretng nor don't have a clue about what I am writing about just because a person disagrees with me.

She even noticed the dogmatism that some astrologers can have in here. Both of us don't like dogmatism at all whether it's Astrology or anything in life. She and I are obviously on the same page.

I am just coming at it from a different angle. That is something that I usually do.
I think Eris has something to do with that. Maybe my Mercury biquintile Eris with 6 minutes of arc reflect that as well as it quincunx my Virgo Ascendant and sextile Gemini Midheaven.

I do believe that many astrologers can approach Astrology ideological way. Another astrologer presents a view that is not concurrent with their belief,and they believe that he/she is attacking Astrology and system. That is same approach that many have when somebody disagrees with their religion,philosophy.

That is why I used the religion metaphors and similes.

It's the same approach

even Astrologer Steven Forrest talked about the Tower of Babel Syndrome that is among astrologers. He said that the One True Astrology is a myth that is dangerous and destructive. He pointed out that other Astrological systems are valid,work,and are very insightful. He said that he is passionate about his own Evolutionary Astrology,but he doesn't expect anybody else to.

I don't have that issue. As for me, I believe in agreeing to disagreeing. I even offered to you in my first post that we agree to disagree. I don't get into who is right and who is wrong nor who is good and who is bad....especially even if they say things that I don't agree with. I just tell them that I disagree,and I tell them why. I don't go slamming them and I don't use character attacks like that one person who did and try to psychoanalyze and pin me down by using my chart,and that's a highly unethical for an astrologer to do. I don't do that stuff.

It was ok that you disagreed with my views. That wasn't the problem. It's the way that you came about it. Even DD,who is not the type to be mean to people, even saw it.
You did come off condescending and patronizing to me. You have done it to other people in the past a few years ago. I called you on it too.

I could care less if you're a scientist. All I care about that you are a human being who treats others like human beings that they have minds of their own. Just because they present things that don't concur with your views doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong. It could be a different way of looking at things just like looking at the chart from Right Ascension is not necessarily the wrong way to look at a chart,it's looking at it from a different angle. After all,Right Ascension is an actual coordinate that astronomers use to locate objects. So is local horizon which many ancient astrologers used in the past. It is like looking at the same glass and turning it around,and you are still looking at the same glass,but you might notice different scratches and cracks on each side as you are turning it around and looking at it in from other sides. It is still the same glass. The sky is not one dimensional,and so why only consider one coordinate like just the ecliptic longitude and not the other coordinates. I like to view the sky that it is---multidimensional. I would like to take numerous coordinates into account when looking at the positions of the heavenly bodies and correlating them with people and events.
There are many valid ways to do Astrology just like there are many valid ways to gain spiritual attainment.

here are some preliminary keywords that Zane Stein wrote for Eris

Loss of innocence, entrance into adulthood; child's trauma being separated from parent; acceptance of unavoidable changes; dying and being reborn (as opposed to Pluto which rules the causes/processes of death and rebirth); internal split causing longing to be whole, the longing of the soul for its other half; the subject/object of a debate, argument, competition, conflict or war...what stirs people to fight or disagree; fighting for one's rights; strife and discord; pitting one side against the other; competition, contests and tournaments; struggles for supremacy; rivalry; a test of skills or abilities; love of fighting or debate; what one has at stake in a competition, dispute or conflict, or one's perspective of what is being fought over; refusing to relinquish one's hold on an ideal, belief, cause, or object...'not budging an inch'; the problems resulting from irreconcilable differences; contrasting different perspectives; comparing thesis and antithesis in the search for truth; contrasting opposing viewpoints to reveal each side more clearly, to seek similarities as well as differences; contrasting logical thought processes to show the limitations of logic; identifying with, or trying to understand, first principles; incongruous juxtapositions to force one to think outside of the box; the ethics connected with one's motives and methods, and the coming to light of less than spotless methods; the roots of one's motivations; piracy, defrauding, swindling; society's ethics; race intent.

especially I notice these keywords:
the problems resulting from irreconcilable differences; contrasting different perspectives; comparing thesis and antithesis in the search for truth; contrasting opposing viewpoints to reveal each side more clearly, to seek similarities as well as differences; contrasting logical thought processes to show the limitations of logic; identifying with, or trying to understand, first principles; incongruous juxtapositions to force one to think outside of the box

I believe that Zane Stein is dead on about Eris.

Like I said before, Dr. Michael Brown pointed out that mythological Eris caused strife and discord among people by making them think that their opinions are right and others are wrong.

That's what ideology is. Ideological views influence many things in society, and it does influence Astrology. There is dogmatism in regards to ideological views...even in Astrology...hence the Tower of Babel' that is in Astrology, and that's even in this forum that DD pointed out.

just as there are astrologers here of numerous religions, there are astrologers of numerous astrological systems. They are just as valid as mainstream Astrology. It's not about right or wrong. It's about what one's preferences. It's about diversity of having many divergent systems which calls for tolerance.

That's my point. If you disagree, that's fine.

I agree to disagree. I am not going to around and tell you that you're wrong,and I am right. To me, that's the negative way to use Eris. I do my best to stay away from ideologies and dogmatism.

peace

Raymond

------------------
Michael E. Brown, a professor of planetary astronomy at the California Institute of Technology who discovered the distant ball of ice and rock that he nicknamed Xena, chose the name Eris, after the goddess of discord and strife in Greek mythology.

"It is absolutely the perfect name," Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

"She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else's is wrong," Brown said. "It really is just perfect." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/09/15/MNGS8 L67LJ1.DTL

Ideology,Diversity,Divergence,Equality,Sharing,Advocacy,Discord,Debating,Compromise,Agreeing to Disagree,Alternative Viewpoints, Seeing/or not seeing Eye to Eye.

Eris in Aries Retrograde in 8th oppose Uranus,trine Ceres,sextile Midheaven,sextile/trine Lunar Nodes,trine Jupiter,quincunx Ascendant,biquintile Mercury,parallel Pluto

posted November 25, 2008 12:22 PM         

I agree with you.

I also think that astrology is a science that is based on the experiences of many people over many centuries. But I don`t want to stand still there, we - as human beings - are still making experiences and looking up at the stars above to see if our experiences are somehow reflected in the motion of the stars. That`s all astrologers have ever done.

We have a hypothesis and then we gather information about experiences to prove our hypothesis. We can`t find a scientific proof as astrology is not a science in the sense as chemistry or physics is. It`s all about experiences and our interpretation of those. And observing that the repetition of certain planetary movement coincides with the same events or character traits.

So I`d be interested, what would you say has a transformative influence beside Pluto. Some of the Kuiper objects I assume, but which ones?
Or could it be that everything behind Saturn is transformative, just in its own way?

Maybe we could look at certain events in our lives and see how or if they are reflected in aspects to Pluto or Kuiper aspects?

posted November 25, 2008 05:34 PM         

I actually believe that my own neurodivergence is reflected by the kuiper belt objects aspects. Neurodivergence tends to be very misunderstood,and it was unknown for a long time. The issues tend to be subtle. They have also known as hidden handicaps. There is a book called DYSPRAXIA: THE HIDDEN HANDICAP by Dr. Amanda Kirby who has a Dyspraxic son herself. With that in mind, I believe that it makes sense that the kuiper belt objects associated with the unknown,hidden,subtleties would reflect my neurodivergence.
Some Astrologers,especially Cosmobiologists and Uranian Astrologers believe that Moon is associated with brain, and Moon is associated with body fluids and water. The brain is full of fluids - cerebral spinal fluids. Mercury is associated with the nervous system.
So it would make sense to check out the aspects involving Moon and Mercury.
Moon in 3'10 Pisces
Varuna in 3'01 Gemini R
Saturn in 5'08 Gemini R
Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius
(as you see, a kuiper belt object aspects my t-square involving my Moon....this could indicate issues with the brain that can be subtle like Dyslexia,Dyspraxia...with Neptune,the planet that rules misdiagnoses....they can be misdiagnosed....Saturn involved can indicate delays in development which is true...my development was slower...I keep reading that many neurodivergent children are immature compared to normal children...this was true for me and that's why mother had me repeat 2nd grade which my special education agreed that I was socially behind the other child. She told me that I could have skipped a grade. I was definitely emotionally hypersensitive (Moon as the apex of t-square..emotional immaturity is one of the interpretations for Moon=Saturn/Neptune in Ebertin's COSI) compared to normal children. I was the kid that always cried too easily....this is common in many special education children too...I have to say that I am still an emotionally hypersensitive person, and my taking cod liver oil/fish oil tones it down)

My Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio
oppose Ceto in 18'58 Taurus R
square Rhadamanthus in 17'32 Leo
square Makemake in 16'20 Leo
(as you see, I have Mercury in a t-square involving 3 kuiper belt objects....with 3 transneptunians in hard aspects to my Mercury, my thought processes are so metaphysical that I could have problems on the physical plane that manifest with nervous system issues - my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia)

I just want to reiterate that just because a person has hard Kuiper belt aspects like l do, it doesn't mean that they will have issues like me or any other issues that have to do with problems on the physical plane.

Philip Sedgwick's has information on Varuna,Ceto,Rhadamanthus,Makemake http://www.philipsedgwick.com/

I think that it's hard to isolate any Pluto's fellow transneptunians of the transneptunian's influences from Pluto's influences....especially the plutinos which have the same physical,orbital features as Pluto,but they are just smaller. That's why I said that I have a hard time isolating the influences of my Sun conjunct Ixion(a plutino) with 5 minutes of arc and my Sun contraparallel Orcus(plutino) with 1 minute of arc from my Sun contraparallel Pluto with 46 minutes of arc. Ixion and Orcus are some of the big kuiper belt objects that might end up being classed as dwarf planets along with Pluto,Eris,Ceres,Haumea,Makemake,and Sedna.

"Maybe we could look at certain events in our lives and see how or if they are reflected in aspects to Pluto or Kuiper aspects?"
That's what I have been trying to do. I notice that in the two events that I had written about, the other transneptunians were making stronger aspects than Pluto was. The only reason that I chose to use those events was because those were the most transformative experiences in my life. Those were two events that profoundly changed,altered my life for better or worse.

"If I wanted to do that, at which objects should I look?
I feel pretty much inclined to look at Pholus. But what do you think? Are there others who could be interesting?"
I don't know...I like to check out Eris myself for obvious reasons. hahahaha I also believe that Ceres is no joke too(it was conjunct my Moon during my mom's shooting, and it was conjunct my maternal grandfather's moon and trine my venus,when he committed suicide...also Ceres was in t-square with my Moon square Neptune when my exgirlfriend broke up with me due to problems with her mom hating men). and it stands out among all the asteroids in the main belt, and that's why it's the only asteroid in the main belt that is classed as a dwarf planet.

I also find Haumea to be very interesting. It's not because it's 2'10 conjunct my Ascendant and '03 square my Midheaven.
It's the physical features. It looks like a spinning football. I have never seen anything like it. It's amazing
2003 EL61 -- now known as Haumea -- is one of the strangest known objects in the solar system. It is a big across as Pluto, but shaped like a cigar. Or perhaps like a football [American-style]. Or, most accurately, a football that has too little air in it and has been stepped on. It spins end over end every 4 hours like a football that has been kicked. It appears to be made almost entirely of rock, but with a glaze of ice over the surface. It is surrounded by two tiny satellites (Hi'iaka and Namaka) and is followed in its orbit by a swarm of other small icy bodies. Everything that we know about this body appears to tell us that in its past another object slammed into it at high speed and cracked it into pieces which flew all around the outer solar system and left what we see today. Follow the story below....
What is Haumea?
Haumea is the third-largest known dwarf planet in the Kuiper belt, the region of space beyond Neptune that contains the larger dwarf planets Eris and Pluto as well as thousands of smaller objects.
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/2003EL61/

but yeah...if you're very much inclined to look at Pholus, go ahead...you might find a lot of interesting stuff

I can give you some stuff on Pholus. Astronomically oriented astrologers believe that Pholus has a Saturn/Neptune energy about it, and they even believe that Saturn/Neptune midpoint is Pholus-sensitive...that is that an aspect to Saturn/Neptune midpoint is like an aspect to Pholus. I have Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune with 17 minutes of arc due to my t-square, and so that would be perceived as having a Moon-Pholus-like connection.

THE MYTHOLOGY OF PHOLUS
One day Hercules was on the way to one of his 12 labors, the capture of a wild boar that was wrecking havoc around Mount Erymanthus in Arcadia. This same area was home to the tribe known as the Centaurs.
On his way to the mountain, Hercules stopped in to see a friend of his named Pholus. Like Chiron, Pholus was an unusual centaur. Unlike the majority, Pholus was fair, gentle and wise. Anyway, Pholus played the good host and entertained Hercules.
For this next part of the story, I have found three different versions. In one, Hercules is thirsty, but Pholus refuses to give him any wine, saying it was not his, but the property of the whole Centaur tribe. Hercules, however, has a powerful thirst, so he takes the cask, breaks it open, and guzzles it down. A second version has Hercules talking Pholus into giving him the wine. And in the third, Pholus plays the excellent host and offers the wine to Hercules.
In one story, by the way, Pholus was given the wine as a present. He was asked to resolve an argument between Dionysus (god of wine, ecstacy) and Hephaestus (also known as Vulcan (god of the forge, metallurgical arts.) Guess which one Pholus sided with? Well, let me give you another hint.....Pholus' dad was often pictured as Silenus, who was almost always pictured being drunk; Silenus was said to be the son of Pan, as well as the tutor of Dionysus.
Anyway, from this point on the stories all agree. The smell of the wine pervaded the area, and the whole tribe of Centaurs became intoxicated by the smell, rushing to the scene, creating havoc, demanding their wine. Pholus tried to calm them down. Chiron came too, and tried. But to no avail. So Hercules began shooting at them, using poisoned arrows. The ones he didn't kill turned and ran. But Chiron was wounded (some say in the knee, others in the heel). Chiron was immortal, so he might have suffered pain for all eternity, if Zeus hadn't allowed him to trade his life for Prometheus' freedom. (That's another story.)
And Pholus tried to remove the poisoned arrow from a fellow Centaur, and was pricked by the same arrow. Since he was not immortal, this killed him. In some versions, Pholus tried to save the fallen centaur. In others, he removed the arrow out of a strange fascination that so small a thing could kill so great a beast.
There are a number of Neptunian overtones to this story. The wine, for example. Pholus' self-sacrifice, in one version. Pholus stepping outside of the safe and secure to investigate the unknown mystery of the arrow. Perhaps these relate to the fact that Pholus orbits between Saturn and Neptune....and links them up in much the same way that Chiron links Saturn and Uranus.
We haven't had very long to study Pholus, so not much of his astrological nature has been verified. But there does seem to be an element of selflessness in his actions...of involving the self in something to the point of losing the self in the process. Much more study is needed, though. http://www.zanestein.com/pholus.htm

Here is stuff on Pholus orbital symbolism http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/essays/email.html

------------------
Michael E. Brown, a professor of planetary astronomy at the California Institute of Technology who discovered the distant ball of ice and rock that he nicknamed Xena, chose the name Eris, after the goddess of discord and strife in Greek mythology.

"It is absolutely the perfect name," Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

"She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else's is wrong," Brown said. "It really is just perfect." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/09/15/MNGS8 L67LJ1.DTL

Ideology,Diversity,Divergence,Equality,Sharing,Advocacy,Discord,Debating,Compromise,Agreeing to Disagree,Alternative Viewpoints, Seeing/or not seeing Eye to Eye.

Eris in Aries Retrograde in 8th oppose Uranus,trine Ceres,sextile Midheaven,sextile/trine Lunar Nodes,trine Jupiter,quincunx Ascendant,biquintile Mercury,parallel Pluto

posted November 29, 2008 10:48 AM         

If we just maintain a diary of events and deep thoughts during an exact Pluto transit, we can investigate the transformational qualities of Pluto.