posted November 20, 2008 01:15 PM         

With all the stuff that I read about Pluto being the planet of transformation. That deep soul changing events happen during Pluto transits,solar arcs,and secondary progressions as well as a person whose life has a strong major transformative theme is reflected by a strong Pluto placement/aspects. I am becoming very skeptical of that.

Since my delving into the astrology of the centaurs,kuiper belt objects well as other trans-Neptunians which was inspired by the work of Zane Stein,Jonathan Dunn,and Mark Andrew Holmes in 2000, I have had my doubts about Pluto as being an influential planet as many astrologers say that it is in all certainty. It's not that I believe that Pluto is not a powerful planet. It definitely it is. I just don't believe that transformation,elimination,rebirth,and intensity are things that are solely associated with Pluto. I believe that the other kuiper belt objects also have to do with transformation,rebirth,and intensity. I believe that deep,soul changing events often happen under the transits of the other kuiper belt objects and not just Pluto. It's even possible that they even occur much more frequently under the other kuiper belt objects and transneptunians.

In my case, to put it bluntly, Pluto hasn't really done a damned thing in regards to be in synchronicity with events that transformed my life. The 2 main events were my mom's shooting on October 26, 1974 and my maternal grandfather's suicide on January 25 1998 which led me to go on a deep soul search that ended getting me into Astrology.

Also...I know that I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in Scorpio along with Pluto in 1st,and all those togther are supposed to make me highly Plutonian. Can I really be sure about that? After all, I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in Libra in the Sidereal Zodiac. I have Sun in the constellation of Virgo with alpha Virgo star,Spica being my heliacal rising star. I have Mercury in the constellation of Libra in alignment with beta Libra star Zuben Eschamali,and my Venus is in the constellation of Libra too. Therefore knowing this stuff,I have my doubts that I really am a Plutonian,and I shouldn't take being a Plutonian for granted based on my tropical sign placements. I believe that aspects are a lot more important,and so I focus more on planetary geometry.

For a long time, I have believed that Ceres has been highly underrated in Astrology. I believe that it has more of an influence than most astrologers give it credit for. Ceres is an archetypal mother goddess,and is associated with nurturing and food. She was the goddess of the harvest. She was also the mother of Proserpina that was kidnapped by Pluto be his bride. She ended up sharing Proserpina with Pluto with she getting her for one half and Pluto for the other half. Because of the discovery of Eris(which Dr. Michael Brown wanted to name "Persephone"), Ceres and Pluto were made dwarf planets. Finally, Ceres became Pluto's equal. At least,astronomers acknowledge Ceres is more important than previously thought and Pluto less important previously thought. I have been thinking the same before Eris was discovered.

Even Steven Forrest said

"In the future as more Trans-Neptunians are discovered and understood, I suspect we will realize that have made our interpretations of Pluto too broad, that its meaning is more focused than we thought, and that the archetype of the Shaman will increasingly be seen as the heart of the Plutonian matter."

The Kuiper belt is a region of the Solar System beyond the planets extending from the orbit of Neptune.. It is home to at least 3 dwarf planets, Pluto,Makemake,and Haumea.
Pluto is the largest known member of the Kuiper belt. Originally considered a planet, it is similar to many other objects of the Kuiper belt, and its orbital period is identical to that of the KBOs known as "plutinos:
A plutino is a trans-Neptunian objectt in 2:3 mean motion resonance with Neptune. For every 2 orbits that a Plutino makes, Neptune orbits 3 times. Plutinos are named after Pluto. Aside from Pluto itself and Charon, the first plutino, 1993 was discovered on September 16, 1993. Pluto is considered the largest plutino followed by Orcus and Ixion.
Cubewano is a Kuiper belt object (KBO) that orbits beyond Neptune and is not controlled by an orbital resonance with the giant planet. Cubewanos, unlike Pluto, do not cross Neptune’s orbit. The odd name derives from the first trans-Neptunian object (TNO) found (besides Pluto and Charon), 1992 QB. Later objects were called "QB1-o's", or "cubewanos". Makemake is the largest of the cubewanos followed by Varuna.
The scattered disc is a distant region of the Solar System that is sparsely populated by icy minor planets known as scattered disc objects (SDOs); a subset of the broader family of trans-Neptunian objects (TNOs). The scattered disc objects have orbital eccentricies ranging as high as 0.8, inclinations as high as 40°. Due to its unstable nature, astronomers now consider the scattered disc to be the place of origin for most periodic comets observed in the Solar System, with the centaurs, a population of icy bodies between Jupiter and Neptune, being the intermediate stage in an object's migration from the disc to the inner Solar System. Eventually, perturbations from the giant planets send it close to Earth, transforming it into a periodic comet. Oort objects are also understood to have originated in the scattered disc. Eris is the largest scattered disc object.
The Oort cloud is a hypothetical spherical cloud of comets.The Oort cloud is thought to comprise two separate regions: a spherical outer Oort cloud and a disc-shaped inner Oort cloud, or Hills cloud. Although no confirmed direct observations of the Oort cloud have been made, astronomers believe that it is the source of all long-period and Halley-type entering the inner Solar System and many of the Centaurs and Jupiter-family comets as well. Sedna is consided to be an Oort cloud object.

It turns out that I have high degree of Kuiper Belt,Trans-Neptunian energy in my chart.
so with that in mind, lets go over my natal aspects. I am only going to include aspects that involve personal planets and points. Those are far more significant. I am listing by Kuiper Belt. Eris is not a Kuiper belt object, but one of many scattered disk objects.

I included Phil Sedgwick's preliminary keywords. He is an insightful astronomically oriented astrologers. He finds keywords not just from its mythology but from its orbital symbolism,physical features, and from the perihelion and node placements. I have 3 of his books,ASTRONOMY FOR ASTROLOGERS, SOUL OF THE SKY,and THE SUN AT THE CENTER. His book,Soul of the Sky includes information about the trans-Nepunians.

He says some things that I completely agree with:

"To review, I suggest we include the entirety of the Kuiper Belt, it’s major players (and lesser players) and that we understand the consciousness breakthroughs implied. We have a series of bodies - Evolutionary Intensified Objects, EIO’s by my trademarked nomenclature - that allow human consciousness to accept the entirety of the known solar system and allow for more discoveries yet unknown. With such acceptance arrive the gifts of new consciousness, emotional clearing and psychic unfoldment."
"All the bodies in the Kuiper Belt with mass equal to or exceeding Pluto hold extreme potency in astrological interpretation, regardless of inclination of their orbit, meaning proximity to the ecliptic."
"If you believe in gravity, size matters and dwarf planets cannot be overlooked. Thus, the asteroids Ceres, Vesta, Pallas and Hygeia require added astrological emphasis and inclusion."
"Of the centaur bodies, Chariklo is more important than Chiron. She is notably larger."
"We accept our evil twin (Charon) and realize that in the process of transformation not everyone is up to the task (thus the downgrade as some dare to classify it)."
"136919(he is referring to Eris' minor planet number) is more significant that Pluto and her orbit provides the next step after transformation and personal evolution after an underworld journey. After all, what good is the process of spiritual evolution if one does nothing with it?"
"Sedna, the Oort cloud object that travels through the realm of the Kuiper Belt Objects, represents the farthest outreach of consciousness of known dimensions and takes up to the theoretical edge of our solar system."
"The body known as Trans-Pluto that exists in most astrological software was based upon calcs done before a math error in the orbit of Uranus came to light in 1999. In fact, Clyde Tombaugh used this erroneous math while searching for Pluto. He should not have been looking where he was. Anyway, this body does not physically exist and falls into purely hypothetical realms."
"I’ve long contended that astrologers irrationally marry concepts and fail to shift gears even when facts, data, realizations and enhanced understanding suggest the need to do so (Of course, so do astronomers and other sorts of astrophysicists.) Consider the unwillingness to put Pluto under the new banner and fully embrace the EIO’s. What about considering that perhaps we bungled the concept of rulerships in modern times? Consider there is no empirical reason for progressions to work. Houses exist because of translation errors. The Gauquelin research redefined house strength assessments (more clearly, planetary relationships to angles)."
"What if we understand how astronomy applies and weave it in with our science? What if we recognize the reality of the solar system, not just the solar system we’ve known in the past. What if we study orbital dynamics. And what if we grow into the reality of the solar system our galaxy and Universe?"
http://www.philipsedgwick.com/StarBlogs/Archives/2006/Almost_Official_07_Sep_2006.htm[/UR L]

I agree with him. It's no wonder that I consider him one of my favorite astrologers because he is not only insightful,but broadminded and he adjusts to discoveries. He is not stagnant and dogmatic in his approach to Astrology. I don't necessarily agree with everything that he does like I don't agree with everything that any other astrologer does, but I agree with a lot of his ideas and concepts. I am getting wary of the use of 20th century Astrology,and I think that I should start considering 21st century Astrology.

Unlike Philip Sedgwick, I agree with IAU's decision to demote Pluto to minor planet. After all, its orbit is totally unlike any of the other planets. It has a highly eccentric orbit and its orbit is locked with Neptune's. It doesn't have a stable orbit. It travels well off the ecliptic that it enters constellations that are not even in the zodiac. Also with it being off the ecliptic and in high lattitude coordinates, there are no real true body 3D conjunctions and oppositions involving Pluto. There are many kuiper belt objects like Pluto. If Pluto should have remained a planet,then I believe Eris should be classed as a planet. I believe Ceres should be classed a planet again after its major planethood being stripped because it was one of many objects in the asteroid belt like Pluto is one of many objects in the kuiper belt and now has been stripped of its major planethood because of it. At least, astronomers have made Ceres and Pluto equals as dwarf planets along with Eris. Dr. Michael Brown says Eris has a Persephone-like orbit in that it orbits half of its time far away from Pluto just like Persephone/Proserpina was spent half of the year away from Pluto/Hades to be with Demeter/Ceres. He even wanted to give the name,"Persephone"but an asteroid is already named that. There is an asteroid already named Proserpina which I have in Pisces in 18'10 Pisces Retrograde in 7th house trine my chart ruler Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio in 3rd and parallel my Moon with 46 minutes of arc. My Persephone is in 16'12 Capricorn in 5th square my Uranus in 15'17 Libra,semisquare my Neptune with 34 minutes of arc,and trine my Ascendant in 13'27 Virgo.

his site with the preliminary keywords:
[URL=http://www.philipsedgwick.com/]http://www.philipsedgwick.com/

Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio
conjunct Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
biquintile Midheaven - '10
Ixion: Father of the Centaurs, and not a particularly nice fellow. Orbital Period: 246.78 yr. a plutino
Positive - understands karmic wheel, gives and uses a second chance, discerning
Negative - lustful, inconsiderate, inclined to repeat errors, learns nothing from experience
Mundane - second efforts and chances, reset buttons, cloud seeding, study of weather, watching clouds, lust or coveting of another's mate
Ceremonial - rain dances, purging fires, seeking master healers

Varuna in 3'01 Gemini
square Moon in 3'10 Pisces
Varuna: Vedic deity of vast power, particularly the waters. Orbital Period: 284.65 yr. a cubewano
Positive - sovereign, competent, regulating without force, mastery of all tasks accepted
Negative - incompetent and blaming, laments losses, holds resentment
Mundane - appointments or elected positions, delegation of authority, promotions, demotions, court martial, public humiliation
Ceremonial - ceremonies to confirm positions, spiritual coronations, “induced” journeys as in shamanically led vision quests

Quaoar in 2'22 Scorpio
conjunct Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
trine Moon in 3'10 Pisces
Quaoar: Native American deity of creation. The first object in space to bear a Native American name (not counting Hopi and Navajo, which refer to tribes). Orbital Period: 283.84 yr. a cubewano
Positive - creative, inspiring, possibility oriented, uplifts sagging emotion, strong sense of self
Negative - doom saying, prophet of Armageddon, controls others with fear
Mundane - birds, frogs, bears, songs and dances of cultural or spiritual origin, harmony, syncopation, rhythm
Ceremonial - singing and dancing praise the Creator, use of animal totems

Eris in 12'15 Aries R
sextile Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini
quincunx Ascendant in 13'26 Virgo
biquintile Mercury - '06
Orbital Period: 556.65 yr., has lunar companion, , 3000 km diameter? (Pluto is estimated at 2320 Km). a scattered disk object dwaf planet largest known minor planet
Some preliminary keywords for Eris follow:
Positive - liberation from addictions to success or status, clear priorities regarding matters of love and money, finally getting you can't take it with you and applying full resourcefulness in life, recognition of the potency of one's energy and life force, clear sense of the sacred marriages: spirit to body, self to Creator, between soulful companions, personal sense of emergence.
Negative - greed, workaholism, believe that you must take over for God, general sense of being forsaken, condemned or abandoned, lack of spiritual regard for life, superficial, status oriented.
Mundane: promises and vows (both kept and broken), elections and election fraud, intervention by higher powers (troubleshooters, authorities, deity or God), using chaos and disruption as a method of reorganization - i.e., dumping a closet onto the floor, then reorganizing, things that overturn, the scales of justice, battles, disputes, famine, fightings, lawlessness (attributed to her moon, Dysnomia), lies, manslayings, murders, oath, oblivion, quarrels - and the last word therein, sorrows and toil, contention, rivalry, loved the spilling of blood on the battlefield, the fifth day of the month, gluttony, gloating, the nurse of war, women wearing men’s uniforms (sports players, women in the military, astronauts)
Ceremonial: capitulation ceremonies, vows to create order from chaos, intent to right wrongdoing, abundance ceremonies

Orcus in 22'28 Cancer R
trine Venus in 21'47 Scorpio
contraparallel Sun - '01
Orcus - A lord of the underworld. Orbital Period: 248.01 yr. a plutino
Positive: a person of one’s word, challenges broken promises, aligned with a spiritual creed, accountable for personal thought, word and deed
Negative: hypocritical, fault finding in the ways of others, blame assigning, ducks responsibility for word and actions, unable to keep promises
Mundane: contracts, oaths to organizations, religions or countries, creeds
Ceremonial: declaring faith, writing creeds, channeling the latest cosmic downloads and formatting it into doctrine

Makemake in 16'19 Leo
oppose my Vertex in 14'48 Aquarius
square my Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio
Orbital Period 309.00 yr., 2nd brightest KBO (Pluto #1), 1,250 km diameter? From Rapa Nui. Pronounced maki-maki. cubewano dwaf planet 3rd largest known minor planet
Positive: Articulate and ultra-communicative. Self-assuredness, especially by verbal means. Clever, quick-witted and interested in invoking insight and inspiration with speech. Quick to report findings, regardless of impact. Courageous, possessing the willfulness to confront the peril required for discovery or spiritual evolution. Conscious of family security and safety. Protection of the brood.
Negative: Cunning and verbally manipulative. Double talk. Diversion of facts. Declaring false findings (laying an egg, so to speak). Taking flight to avoid consequence. Hiding as a coping skill. Reckless. Disregard for safety of the home. Self-serving.
Mundane: Data collection to support a doctrine or cause. Books, especially those of multi-cultural interest. Translation especially with a cross-cultural theme. Cultural synthesis. Integration of tasks. Computer iterations and/or algorithms. Dissemination of information whether true or false. Split second decisions. Lightning fast assessment. Fertility and fertility procedures. Birds. Fans. Eggs. Creeds. Documents of self declaration - affirmation statements, bios or autobiographies, a feather in one’s cap, selecting a safe location for nesting.
Ceremonial: Incantations. Oral remedies for healing. Meditations to unify the minds of several. Isolation for ceremonial purposes. Shamanic retreat. Cave ceremonies. Ceremonies involving hair cutting. Personal acceptance of one’s cause and karma. Ceremonies involving the use of feathers or eggs (feather fans, Eagle feather cleansing, the egg diagnostics of curanderos and curanderas - common in Ecuador, one of Rapa Nui’s neighbors).

Haumea in 11'16 Virgo
conjunct Ascendant in 13'26 Virgo
square my Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini
Orbital Period: 285.31 yr., with a moon.,3rd brightest KBO(Pluto #1) orbital period w/Moon about 3.9 hours, cigar shaped object because of fast rotational period, 1200 km diameter? Hawaiian creation goddess. cubewano dwarf planet 4th largest known minor planet
Positive: Soulful confidence, an unshakeable personal inner knowing, creative, regenerative. Able to reconstruct, redefine, transform, especially regarding consciousness, willfulness and restoring rock solid integrity. Supportive. Fostering. Fertile. Creative.
Negative : Insecure and attention demanding. Dramatic. Egocentric. A bully disposition. Forces head-on collisions. Claims martyrdom and sacrifice to secure attention. Willing to attach to someone else’s momentum or allowing dependent sorts to attach to one’s efforts for self benefit (using non-paid volunteers, fans, devotees).
Mundane: Self awareness programs. Portraits and or caricatures. “Spin” as in political or media framing of events. Affinity or family bonds with those similar in nature. The Hula. The big island of Hawaii. Storm warnings to sailors in form or rainbow. Lava cooling in the sea to make land. Creation, fertility, childbirth and sisterhood. Verbal affirmations. Body sacrifice. Entourages. Groupies.
Ceremonial: Hulas, regeneration ceremonies, affirmations. Soul-based capitulation ceremonies (surrendering ego to spirit). Ceremonies in which a mask is removed (unmasking of the great Hopi kachina Saquasohuh).
Lunar bodies contributing to keywords: Hi’iaka, Namaka.

Sedna in 2'06 Taurus R
oppose Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
sextile Moon in 3'10 Pisces
(I also have Moon sextile Sedna -'03 in a true body 3D aspect)
Sedna - She is the first body to bear the mythology of the arctic's Inuit culture. Orbital Period: 10666.77 yr.
Positive - a forgiving disposition, discernment, clarity of perception, recognition of free will and choice, responsible, conscious of consequence, far thinking, dharma-oriented, does the homework of life
Negative - victimization, abuse, being deceived, history of betrayal, bitterness, “gold digging” attitude in relationship, transfers blame to others, numbs out, goes unconscious
Mundane - blubber, products made from sea mammals, whaling, diving bells that go into the dark of the sea, emotional healing, forgiveness, sorrow, engagement, masks, flight of the birds
Ceremonial - cleansing in the sea, propitiation to the sea, sea creatures, use of sea creature talismans (walrus tusk carvings, scrimshaw), ceremony with masks of sea creatures, ceremonial masks in general

Lets take a look at Ceres which is Pluto's fellow dwarf planet who for a long time was lower ranked than Pluto in Astronomy,but is finally made equal to Pluto. How is that for women getting respect? hahahahaha

Ceres in 13'57 Leo
oppose Vertex in 14'58 Aquarius
sextile Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini
parallel Midheaven - '08
(I have Ceres-Midheaven bilevel)

named after the Roman Goddess of the Harvest,.....largest of the main belt asteroids and a dwarf planet

as you see, I have Ceres making aspects to personal points.....I am very nurturing type...nurturing played a major role in my life

now what does Pluto do?

Pluto in 0'51 Libra
quincunx Moon in 3'10 Pisces
contraparallel Sun - '46
named after the Roman God of the Underworld, 248 yr orbit, transformation,regeneration,elimination,intensity,
power,penetration,hidden matter kuiper belt object with 3:2 resonance with Neptune..all plutinos have 3:2 resonance with Neptune.

I don't know about you, but I don't think that I am highly Plutonian person even though transformation has been a big theme for me. My Moon quincunx Pluto is well over 2 degrees, and I have Sun contraparallel Pluto which is 12 minutes away from 1 degree which is the orb for declinations. That's not a strong declination aspects. All the aforementioned brothers of Pluto make more significant aspects in my chart than Pluto...especially Ixion,Varuna,and Haumea. I have Sun-Ixion is in a cazima(in the heart of the Sun). My Orcus is 1 minute contraparallel to my Sun,and that's a much closer declination aspect than Pluto contraparallel my Sun. I would say that those 2 kuiper belt objects would have to be far more influential than Pluto. Pluto's fellow dwarf planet,Ceres is much stronger in my chart than Pluto is.

now lets go over transits,solar arcs,and secondary progressions on the night of my mom's shooting

Solar Arc Eris in 15'14 Aries
oppose natal Uranus in 15'17 Libra
parallel natal Mars - '11 applying

Solar Arc Sun parallel Natal Eris - '08 applying
(solar arcs that involve the sun..highlights events of the year)

double focus Eris Solar Arc involving a personal planet.

Solar Arc Quaoar in 5'21 Scorpio
conjunct natal Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
conjunct natal Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio

Transiting Quaoar in 5'50 Scorpio
conjunct natal Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
conjunct Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio

Transiting Quaoar in 5'52 Scorpio
conjunct Secondary Progressed Sun in 8'19 Scorpio

Transiting Orcus in 25'45 Cancer Stationary Retrograde
quincunx natal Mars in 25'54 Aquarius - applying
semisquare natal Midheaven - '28 - applying
semisquare natal Haumea - '25 applying
(transiting Orcus is in an 8th harmonic triangle to my Haumea square Midheaven,on the Huamea/Midheaven midpoint)

Solar Arc Varuna in 6'00 Gemini R
conjuncting Saturn in 5'08 Gemini R

Transiting Varuna in 7'11 Gemini R
conjuncting Saturn in 5'08 Gemini R

Transiting Ixion in 8'10 Scorpio
conjunct Secondary Progressed Sun in 8'19 Scorpio

Solar Arc Ascendant
semisquare Quaoar in 2'20 Scorpio - '56 applying
sesiquadrate Sedna in 2'06 Taurus R - '40 applying

Solar Arc Sedna in 5'05 Taurus
oppose Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
oppose Ixion in 5'20 Scorpio

Transiting Ceres in 1'12 Pisces
conjunct Moon in 3'10 Pisces
square Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius

Solar arc Node in 13'28 Aquarius
oppose Ceres in 13'57 Leo

Now what was Pluto doing in the chart during this most traumatic,tranformative event in my entire life?

Transiting Pluto in 7'42 Libra
sextile my Jupiter in 8'17 Sagittarius

I don't know about you, but this doesn't look like an aspect that can indicate a traumatic experience

so we look at solar arcs involving

Solar Arc Pluto in 3'50 Libra
square my Sun/Moon midpoint in 4'13 Cancer

ok.....we finally see Pluto in some hard action because I looked at the midpoints. Sun/Moon midpoint is considered one of the most important midpoints indicating the combination of the male and female energies. Not all astrologers use midpoints though. Some astrologers believe that if an event should be reflected by aspects clearly seen in the chart. Some astrologers believe that midpoints are essential. I believe that solar arc Pluto square Sun/Moon midpoint is significant, but there was far more kuiper belt activity from the its fellow kuiper belt objects. Ceres, the dwarf planet associated with nurturing,mother child issues was conjunct my Moon(the mother) and square my Neptune, and that would indicate the separation from my mother as well as my confusion (Where is ma-ma?), and indicates that the event involved my mother. The double focus Eris solar arcs involving personal points was also very interesting. Orcus was stationed on that day and forming an 8th harmonic triangle to my Haumea square Midheaven. It was quincunx my Mars which indicates deadly violence in my life. It's interesting that I have planets,personal points in aspects to kuiper belt objects that were aspected by solar arc and transiting kuiper belt objects. That is very significant. The transformation of the kuiper belt objects brings out the innate transformation in me during this deadly event. Also there is a double focus Sedna solar arc.

Lets take a look at what was going on when my maternal grandfather committed suicide

Solar Arc Ixion in 1'47 Sagittarius
conjunct natal Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius

Solar Arc Node in 6'52 Pisces
sesquiquadrate natal Orcus - '35 applying

Transiting Ixion in 2'58 Sagittarius
oppose natal Varuna in 3'01 Gemini R
oppose natal Saturn in 5'08 Gemini R
square Moon in 3'10 Pisces
(Transiting Ixion forming a t-square to my Moon square Saturn-Varuna)

Transiting Varuna in 5'35 Cancer
trine natal Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
trine natal Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio

transiting Ixion in t-square to my Moon square Varuna and transiting Varuna trine my Sun-Ixion cazimi is a double whammy Ixion-Varuna transit that involves a luminaries, and that is very significant.

Transiting Eris in 18'09 Aries
quincunx natal Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio
semisquare natal Moon in 3'10 Pisces - '01 applying
semisquare natal Varuna in 3'01 Gemini R
(Transiting Eris forming an 8th harmonic triangle with Moon square Varuna, on the Moon/Varuna midpoint

Transiting Sedna in 14'12 Taurus R
trine Ascendant in 13'26 Virgo

what was Pluto doing at the time?

Transiting Pluto in 7'30 Sagittarius
conjunct natal Jupiter in 8'17 Sagittarius

Solar Arc Pluto in 27'14 Libra
square Midheaven/Ascendant midpoint in 27'20 Cancer

I have to say that this is a very significant solar arc with it involving my Midheaven/Ascendant midpoint which is a very important point. But...again, I had to look at midpoints to see any Pluto action. Transiting Pluto did not make any aspects to personal planets,points like the other kuiper belt objects do. In both events,it was aspecting my Jupiter. Some astrologers would say that's significant because it rules my 4th house. That's according to my chart in the tropical zodiac. Sidereal zodiac Astrologers would say that Mars rules my 4th house,and it was quincunx by Orcus during the first event. Ixion and Varuna were major players with them involved in a double focus transit which involved natal aspects that formed with those 2 kuiper belt objects to my Sun and Moon. Eris is no joke too with it being semisquaring my Moon square Varuna for an 8th harmonic triangle transit.
My Moon square Varuna was getting hit by Eris and Ixion at the same time which indicate my emotionally devastating event of losing the person that I loved most in the world except my mother. It definitely transformed my life. The transiting Varuna in trine to my Sun-Ixion probably reflected my believing that my grandfather was in a better place. At the memorial service in the Catholic Church,I prayed passionately,deeply for his soul so that he can be received into heaven. I didn't believe that he was going to face judgment and go to hell. I had talked to a Navy chaplain about that even though I was an atheist at the time. It was my grandfather's death that led me on a spiritual,soul search that led me to believe in God again after 2 years of atheism. It opened the metaphysical door for me to get into Astrology.

With my weighing it all, I would say that the other kuiper belt objects were far more transformative than Pluto in my life,and they are more transformative in me period. That doesn't necessarily mean that Pluto is not a transformer. It definitely it is, but the transformative aspects of Pluto are highly outweighed by the transformative aspects of the other kuiper belt objects in my natal chart and my two most transformative events. Therefore, the other kuiper belt objects are THE transformers for me. This has got me thinking that maybe I should pay attention to the other kuiper belt transits,solar arcs,and secondary progressions and not just Pluto. As you see, Ceres happened to be in a prominent transit and involved in a solar arc with the Node when my mom got shot. That should be no surprise for the asteroid associated with nurturing and mother-child connections. So even Ceres was a more prominent influence than Pluto. Ceres is definitely a more prominent influence in me.

Should I have to go and look at my midpoints to see something that is in synchronicity with a significant event in my life? I believe that it should be there right in front of me for me to see. But then again.....Pluto is the planet of hidden matters....isn't it?

Raymond

posted November 20, 2008 01:24 PM         

Probably other kuiper objects had been influential, too, but Pluto definitely was there, especially if he was making a conjunction or square (haven`t experienced the opposition so far I think).

Hmm I looked at your Pluto aspects

Pluto in 0'51 Libra
quincunx Moon in 3'11 Pisces
contraparallel Sun - '46

Your Pluto is exactly on the Ariespoint and unaspected in the traditional sense, I`d think it would make him pretty strong actually. But of course like so many things in astrology that is a question of your own belief. (The importance of the ARiespoint I mean).

But I think I`m going to check my other Kuiper objects.

posted November 20, 2008 02:03 PM         

My Pluto is not unaspected in my chart

In the beginning,I said that I would only list placements that involve personal planets/points

That is why I didn't list Pluto's other aspects

the planets that aspect my Pluto

are:

Pluto in 00'51

trine Saturn in 5'08 Gemini
sextile Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius

the other Kuiper belt objects,transneptunians have other aspects too,but I only wanted to list the personal planets,points

therefore, I don't have unaspected Pluto

furthermore, Pluto is a generational planet. With it being on the Aries Pt,it's still a generational aspect. Just like a generational object like Eris on the Aries Pt would be a generational.

now my Sun/Mars midpoint squares the Pluto-Aries Pt opposition, only then Pluto-Aries Pt is personalized and not generational.

I don't put much emphasis on Aries Pt.

the other midpoints involving personal planets and points have aspects to Pluto's fellow kuiper belt objects too.

I also didn't say that Pluto wasn't a transforming influence.

it just isn't THE Tranformer in my life even though it is in your life and others' lives. That was the point of my post.

I don't knock Pluto's power, but hey...I think his fellow kuiper belt objects,transneptunians should get some consideration for their influence too. That was another point of the post. Ceres too for that matter.

posted November 20, 2008 02:14 PM         

I don't knock Pluto's power, but hey...I think his fellow kuiper belt objects,transneptunians should get some consideration for their influence too. That was another point of the post. Ceres too for that matter. "

Okay, I definitely agree with that.
There`s a tendency to put too much emphasis on Pluto nowadays. It doesn`t mean it has got no effect, but there are still other influential objects, too.

posted November 20, 2008 02:30 PM         

Currently, transiting Pluto is in my 4th squaring my Pluto in 1st right now, and I am not going to discount that transit as meaningless. It was stationary retrograde exactly conjunct my Venus/Node midpoint,my Sun/Mars midpoint and squaring my Pluto in Libra in 1st on the day my exgirlfriend broke up with me. It definitely was in synchronicity with a transformative event.

I have other Kuiper belt transits going on right now

Transiting Orcus in 1'00 Virgo
oppose my Moon in 3'11 Pisces
square my Varuna in 3'01 Gemini R
square my Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius
(Grand Cross Transit)

Transiting Makemake in 25'00 Virgo
quincunx my Mars in 25'54 Aquarius

Transiting Ceres in 5'18 Virgo
sextile my Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
sextile my Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio

Transiting Quaoar in 18'06 Sagittarius
semisextile my Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio

posted November 20, 2008 04:03 PM         

Transiting Ceres in 1'31 Gemini in 9th
conjunct my Varuna in 3'01 Gemini in 9th
oppose my 7th house ruler Neptune in 1'48 Gemini
square my Moon in 3'10 Pisces in 10th
(T-Square Transit......my exgirlfriend broke up with me because of her man-hating feminist mother,and they are very close. her mother doesn't want her being with men, Like Ceres/Demeter couldn't let go of Proserpina/Persephone and she feels that she is the only one that can be there for her mom........you can see how difficult it would be to have a relationship with her....I would have considered both of them as family...so you see the Ceres theme of nurturing,mother-daughter relationships figured prominently)

keywords for Ceres can be about mother/daughter issues,letting go,the empty nest syndrome
Demeter can be the same too

Transneptunian,Kuiper Belt transits:

Transiting Varuna in 17'25 Cancer in 11th
Trining my Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio in 3rd
Trining my Proserpina in 18'10 Pisces Retrograde in 7th
(Grand Trine Transit and it involves Proserpina in the 7th house!......)

Transiting Ixion in 14'36 Sagittarius
squaring my Ascendant in 13'27 Virgo
trining my Ceres in 13'57 Leo
(it was also squaring my exgf's Ascendant in 13'43 Pisces....so she and I had shared experience Ixion transit with Ixion squaring our Ascendant-Ascendant opposition)

Transiting Quaoar in 18'57 Sagittarius R
semisextiling Mercury in 18'21 Mercury in Scorpio

Transiting Eris in 21'01 Aries
quincunx my Venus in 21'47 Scorpio

so even Ceres was majorly involved in transits during my breakup. Pluto's fellow kuiper belt objects,transneptunians were involved in transits too.

posted November 20, 2008 05:27 PM         

quote:

---

Pluto Is Not THE Transformer In My Life

---

posted November 20, 2008 06:09 PM         

that's a good one, AG

Peace

posted November 21, 2008 10:33 AM         

that is smt that happened to them, not to you. I'm sure there are some contacts that show the effect those evnts had on your life. Pluto brings changes that directly affect you - not by consequences.

so, do forgive me, for I kinda think it is your interpretation of transiting Pluto that is wrong. If you wanna believe in all thoseother planets and whatever, you're free to do so. but you don't have to build your new beliefs on the grave of the old ones; you don't need to destroy in order to build something new.

posted November 21, 2008 11:16 AM         

quote:

---

With all the stuff that I read about Pluto being the planet of transformation. That deep soul changing events happen during Pluto transits,solar arcs,and secondary progressions as well as a person whose life has a strong major transformative theme is reflected by a strong Pluto placement/aspects. I am becoming very skeptical of that.

---

Hi Glaucus,
I'm always interested to see your take on things but in this case, I wholeheartedly disagree with the parts I've bolded.

I would say I'm very, very influenced by Pluto and quite familiar with its impact and power. My Scorpio MC/Neptune conjunction is the tightest aspect in my chart. I'm a Cancer in the Scorpio decanate of Cancer. I have Uranus - my chart ruler, as I'm Aqua Rising - in the 8th House along with Jupiter and Pluto. To say that I am "a person whose life has a strong major transformative theme" would be an
extreme understatement. I would describe my life as a living hell - I am constantly in the midst of experiencing one extreme challenge after the other, but with maximum growth. With every "birth, death, transformation, rebirth" cycle I evolve a little more and gain strength beyond measure. And I am always transformed, often extremely so.

Also, when transiting Pluto squared both my Moon (as I'm a Cancer the Moon is an especially sensitive point in my chart) and Nodes I went through the biggest (and sadly, most destructive and irreparable) transformation of my life.

posted November 21, 2008 02:37 PM         

That comes off rather condescending and patronizing like I don't know Astrology. It is not the first time that you have done that to people. I have a good grasp of Astrology ok. I didn't have a bad interpretation. That's your opinion.

"you expect it to be a Pluto contact there, you demand it - but why should there be any?!? "

Because it was 2 of the most transformative events in my life. That's why? Imho there should be a very significant Pluto stuff going on if Pluto is the planet of transformation. like in the first event, it involved my mother, there was Ceres conjunct my Moon and square my Neptune. Ceres has to do with mother/child issues.

"that is smt that happened to them, not to you. I'm sure there are some contacts that show the effect those evnts had on your life. Pluto brings changes that directly affect you - not by consequences."

I happened to me too...the first event of my mom's shooting was the most traumatic event of my life. I was with her when she was shot. She saved both of our lives. So don't sit and tell me that that it didn't happen to me. The guy took a shot at me,and my mom pushed me out of the way,and she got shot instead. She told me that.

also..my grandfather's death was the 2nd most transformative event of my life. I lost somebody that I loved the most except my mom. When I was praying so hard for his soul to be saved in the catholic church memorial service,I felt like something really changed in me. It was his suicide that led me on a soul/spiritual seearch that got me into the metaphysical that eventually led me into Astrology.

so don't sit there and try to lecture me about how it didn't happen to me. Learning about my grandfather's suicide was a very profound event that changed my life forever.

"so, do forgive me, for I kinda think it is your interpretation of transiting Pluto that is wrong."

That's your opinion. I have studied Astrology since 1998, and I think that I have studied long and hard enough to have a good idea of how transiting Pluto works in the chart.

"If you wanna believe in all thoseother planets and whatever, you're free to do so."

It's not about believing. It's about seeing,studying,examining what they do. I don't just go by faith. I actually look into things. You might not believe that,but I don't care. You don't know me any way.

"but you don't have to build your new beliefs on the grave of the old ones; you don't need to destroy in order to build something new."

I am not building any beliefs on the grave of the old ones. I even made a point that Pluto is a tranformer,but it just wasn't in MY life...I didn't say that Pluto wasn't a transformer in lives in general. I still believe that Pluto is an influential object in Astrology, but my point of the post is that Pluto's fellow dwarf planets,transneptunians,and kuiper belt objects can be just as influential as Pluto,and they were more influential in my life than Pluto. I even said that to DD on this thread. There is nothing wrong saying that. After all,it's my life. It's my experiences. Not yours nor anybody else's. I can have an idea of certain energy that is prominent in my life just like you have an idea of certain that is prominent in your life...same with other people.

" Oh, wait. that is the Pluto way. you may be more plutonian than you give yourself credit for. "

No..I am not....I already showed in this post. I have stronger aspects involving Pluto's fellow dwarf planets,kuiper belt objects,and transneptunians than Pluto. therefore I am much less Plutonian than I have ever given myself credit for. After all, I thought I was highly Plutonian with my Sun,Mercury,and Venus in Scorpio along with Pluto in 1st, but I don't believe that signs are all that important. I don't put much emphasis on zodiac signs nor house placements. I focus more on planetary geometry like Cosmobiologists and Uranian Astrologers do.

I just don't put much faith in Regular Astrology any more. I am ready for some 21st Century Astrology. That's not a crime. That's just my preference. I just don't believe in a lot of the traditional Astrology stuff just like Reinhold Ebertin,Theodor Landscheidt,and even Johannes Kepler didn't.
I want a more Cosmobiological,Harmonic Approach with more emphasis on the astronomical coordinates. I want to incorporate the new astronomical discoveries.

I am not going to get into the Eris type of thinking "You're Right and I am Wrong" approach.

I agree to disagree.

We all have our own views,methods of Astrology. I would appreciate that we don't get condescending,patronizing and treat people like we don't know Astrology because we disagree with what a person says.

to each,his/her own

posted November 21, 2008 02:53 PM         

Hi Glaucus,
I'm always interested to see your take on things but in this case, I wholeheartedly disagree with the parts I've bolded.

I would say I'm very, very influenced by Pluto and quite familiar with its impact and power. My Scorpio MC/Neptune conjunction is the tightest aspect in my chart. I'm a Cancer in the Scorpio decanate of Cancer. I have Uranus - my chart ruler, as I'm Aqua Rising - in the 8th House along with Jupiter and Pluto. To say that I am "a person whose life has a strong major transformative theme" would be an
extreme understatement. I would describe my life as a living hell - I am constantly in the midst of experiencing one extreme challenge after the other, but with maximum growth. With every "birth, death, transformation, rebirth" cycle I evolve a little more and gain strength beyond measure. And I am always transformed, often extremely so.

Also, when transiting Pluto squared both my Moon (as I'm a Cancer the Moon is an especially sensitive point in my chart) and Nodes I went through the biggest (and sadly, most destructive and irreparable) transformation of my life."

just let me reiterate something
The whole point of my post is that Pluto has not been the transformer in MY life. I wasn't referring to anybody else's life nor yours. I didn't say that Pluto wasn't a transformer period. I said that it definitely is. but it wasn't THE Transformer in my life. Pluto's fellow other kuiper belt objects,transneptunians,and Plutonians were.

I don't necessarily agree with all the things that Astrologers write in books.
Until 1990,Pluto was the only transneptunian object discovered.
many astrologers believed that Chiron came from out out of our solar system, then later on astronomers found the kuiper belt as well many centaurs like Chiron. Astronomers showed that the centaurs have connections to the kuiper belt.

Jeffrey Wolf Green says Pluto is the soul. He says that Pluto is evolutionary intent. His Evolutionary Astrology was created at the time that Pluto's fellow kuiper belt objects,transneptunians weren't found. What about those objects. They could be just as important for evolutionary soul lessons like Pluto. Pluto was thought to be the most distant object in our solar system. That's proven to be untrue with the discovery of many objects far more distant than Pluto...especially Eris and Sedna.

I believe in adjusting to new astronomical discoveries just like many astrologers adjusted to new discoveries when they added Uranus,Neptune,and Pluto to their systems. Some astrologers added Chiron to their systems after it was discovered. It was thought to be so unique. Now Chiron has over 40 fellow centaurs,and Pluto has over thousands of fellow kuiper belt objects.

but yeah the most transformative events of my life didn't occur under strong Pluto aspects of any kind which makes sense. I don't have them in my natal chart either. The most transformative events of my life happened under Pluto's fellow dwarf,transneptunian,,and kuiper belt objects,and that makes sense. Those energies are stronger in my natal chart.

For you Pluto is the transformer in your life, and I would never dispute that. Also you have strong Pluto aspects unlike me. It would make sense that Pluto would be a more profound influence.

my point of the post was that Pluto is not THE transformer in my life. another point was that Pluto's fellow dwarf planets,transneptunian,and kuiper belt objects can have just as much as an influence as Pluto in Astrology.

any ways...my views are changing about traditional Astrology,and I don't believe in some of the traditional Astrological stuff. I am adjusting to the astronomical discoveries. I am interested in Cosmobiology,Harmonics,and the use of astronomical points. I want to use a 21st century type of Astrology. Therefore I want to incorporate the use of Pluto's fellow dwarf planets,transneptunians,kuiper belt objects in my astrological system. Unlike most astrologers but like astronomers,I see Ceres and Pluto as being equals. They will be equals in my system.

Raymond

posted November 23, 2008 06:06 AM         

When my dad died - it didn't happen to me - it was he who died. not me. Your grandmother died! your mother was shot. NOT YOU. you watched and learned something - which is great. all great minds learn from what happens to others.

This is what I meant by your interpretation being wrong. the symbolism of the event could simply be different – and it’s not uncommon for people so traumatized to focus on the death and lose sight of the actual significance in their life. Your grand mum may have died. But that wasn’t a ‘transformation’ in a Pluto way – you discovered faith and spirituality, and religion. Neptune stepped in.

----

Anything other than “oh, glaucus, you’re a genius”, is patronizing to you? I think your interpretation is wrong and biased. How can I say that in a non-threatening way? Teach me.

I spoke of an astrological interpretation, and called it wrong - you called me names in return – based on how you felt when reading my post. I’m sorry you felt bad – but then again, you shouldn’t attach yourself to your opinions. While I disagree with your interpretation of astrology, I have nothing against you, personally. I never said you don’t know any astrology. I only said that in this particular case, you may have obvious reasons to be biased.

But I won’t have you bully me into keeping my mouth shut or feeling scared to voice my opinions. This is an ASTROLOGY forum – where people discuss astrology. Not a place to worship you and your personal beliefs! When you’ll have convinced everyone here that you’re the new Messiah, I’ll be on my way. Until then, while we still maintain the impression of being interested in astrology, this is what I think.

Hate me. Call me names. Whatever makes you happy.

----------------
a more balanced approach on this matter from your part would've been: "I had expected a Pluto influence on the two occasions I consider most transformative for my life. To my surprise, there was none".

posted November 23, 2008 06:20 AM         

But I think we should all keep that in mind, that it`s just that, our own interpretation. Noone of us really knows what is right and what not; we only can develop a system for ourselves that seem to be better than the other theories or systems, because it is more consistent.
But it may not be the same for all people.

Personally I think, it all comes down to our own unique way of perception anyway.

So, what I`ve noticed on this forum (not only in this thread) for the last few months, is that people have started to become very rigid and even condescending in their style. Probably I am one of them, I don`t know. I try to not be, but who knows, if I succeed?

I just wish we could stop to tell others their kind of astrology is bad or wrong; all we express here are opinions, theories, and those are not absolutes.

posted November 23, 2008 11:47 AM         

That's exactly how I feel.

Here is something that I wrote in regards to Eris:

I believe that Eris has to do with divergence,diversity more than Uranus does. Wars are fought because of differences in views,opinions,and beliefs.
People fought others that are different from them. People had that "you're wrong and I am right" mentality, and I see that going on in regards to morals,ethics,religion,politics,education,scientific fields,relationships,the food that we eat...I hate to say,but I see it in Astrology too. Even Steven Forrest who has a close Moon-Eris conjunction says that there is a Tower of Babel going on among astrologers,and he pointed out that the idea of one true Astrology is a myth and destructive. It's often thinking that one is better than the other which can lead to to superiority-inferiority issues. This is what can lead to equal/civil rights issues. Then people feel the need to stand up for themselves and fight for their rights. They end up being advocates which astrologers assign to Uranus. I think that advocacy and activism are mixed up. I think activism is more linked to wanting to get changes made and even progress. It can even be independence to some degree. Abolutionism would seem like Uranus, but the whole slavery thing is based on ideology leading to the superiority-inferiority issues.

Dr. Michael E. Brown, a professor of planetary astronomy at the California Institute of Technology who discovered the distant ball of ice and rock that he nicknamed Xena and that had been designated 2003 UB313, chose the name Eris, after the goddess of discord and strife in Greek mythology.
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.
In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.
“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”
http://tech.mit.edu/V126/N38/38shorts2.html

Don't many people do that on our planet today? Of course they do, this has been going on for centuries,millenniums. Many arguments,fights,battles,and wars(including civil and world wars) have occurred because of intolerance of people's differences in some form or another.

It seems all about ideology,diversity,equality matters in general. Eris can be about "-isms"

Intolerance of diversity is the greatest problem on our planet

DD,

I want to make it very clear to you. I haven't seen you be condescending and patronizing to people at all. I also like that you look and see things for yourself. You have your own mind and don't just go on faith. That's a good thing imho.

in a nutshell, you're very cool imho as an astrologer and as a person.

posted November 23, 2008 01:34 PM         

Actually by Right Ascension, my Pluto is stronger

Pluto trine Midheaven - 2'34
Pluto sextile Jupiter - '33
Pluto trine Saturn - 3'34
Pluto trine/sextile Lunar Nodes - 5'46
Pluto conjunct Uranus - 7'09
quincunx Moon - 2'45 (too wide for my taste

I also have Sun conj Neptune/Pluto - '33
(I really believe that this describes my father a lot in regards to my growing up without knowing him
Neptune/Pluto is considered the supernatural midpoint in cosmobiology.....also I read that this configuration is one of the configurations that Ebertin listed that can indicate cancer too)

Ceres makes stronger aspects in Right Ascension than Longitude too

So does Eris with it being in an 8th harmonic triangle with my Moon and Saturn with it being on the Moon/Saturn midpoint with 32 minutes of arc
and conjunct Mars/Midheaven with 11 minutes of arc

BTW...Right Ascension is how Astronomers locate heavenly bodies. They use Right Ascension and Declination.

Right ascension (abbrev. RA; symbol á) is the astronomical term for one of the two coordinates of a point on the celestial sphere when using the equatorial coordinate system. The other coordinate is the declination

RA is the celestial equivalent of terrestrial longitude. Both RA and longitude measure an east-west angle along the equator; and both measure from a zero point on the equator. For longitude, the zero point is the Prime Meridian; for RA, the zero point is known as the First Point of Aries, which is the place in the sky where the Sun crosses the celestial equator at the March equinox.
RA is measured eastward from the March equinox. Any units of angular measure can be used for RA, but it is customarily measured in hours, minutes, and seconds, with 24 hours being equivalent to a full circle. The reason for this choice is that the earth rotates at an approximately constant rate (see sidereal time). Since a complete circle has 360 degrees, an hour of right ascension is equal to 1/24 of this, or 15 degrees of arc, a single minute of right ascension equal to 15 minutes of arc, and a second of right ascension equal to 15 seconds of arc. Sidereal Hour Angle, used in celestial navigation, is similar to RA, but increases westward rather than eastward. It is important not to confuse SHA with the concept of hour angle as it is usually used in astronomy, which is how far west an object is from one's local meridian.
RA can be used to determine a star's location and to determine how long it will take for a star to reach a certain point in the sky. For example, if a star with RA = 01:30:00 is at a location's meridian, then a star with RA = 20:00:00 will be in the meridian 18.5 sidereal hours later.
Since the right ascension (and declination) of stars are constantly changing due to precession, astronomers always specify these with reference to a particular epoch. The currently used standard epoch is J2000.0, which is January 1, 2000 at 12:00 TT. The prefix "J" indicates that it is a Julian epoch. Prior to this astronomers used the successive Besselian Epochs B1875.0, B1900.0 and B1950.0.

The concept of right ascension has been known at least as far back as Hipparchos who measured stars in equatorial coordinates in the 2nd century BC. But Hipparchos and his successors made their star catalogs in ecliptical coordinates, and the use of RA was limited to special cases.
With the invention of the telescope, it became possible for astronomers to observe celestial objects in greater detail, provided that the telescope could be kept pointed at the object for a period of time. The easiest way to do that is to use an equatorial mount for the telescope, which allows the telescope to rotate at the same rate as the earth. As the equatorial mount became widely adopted for observation, the equatorial coordinate system, which includes right ascension, was adopted at the same time for simplicity. Equatorial mounts could then be accurately pointed at objects with known right ascension and declination by the use of setting circles. The first star catalog to use right ascension and declination was John Flamsteed's Historia Coelestis Britannica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_ascension

also in my regular chart,

My Pluto is strong by Golden Section Aspect
devised by Dr. Theodor Landscheidt who used them in Climatology and applied them to Astrollogy.

Pluto
34'24 Golden Section Aspect Sun - '05
47'30 Golden Section Aspect Mercury - '00
145'37 Golden Section Aspect Mars - '34
47'30 Golden Section Aspect Ceres - '36

Mars is in 111'15 Golden Section Sun - '41

I have Sun,Mars,and Pluto in Golden Section Triangle
with corresponding Midpoint picture of Pluto square Sun/Mars midpoint - '14
That also means....that with my Ixion 5 minutes conjunct my Sun, then I have Ixion in a Golden Section triangle with my Mars and Pluto.

I discovered Golden Section Triangles and that they have corresponding midpoint pictures. However, I don't know what harmonic Golden Section Aspects are. The harmonic must be based on the Golden Golden Section.

and by planetary node

My Geocentric North Pluto Node in 21'16 Cancer
trine my Venus in 21'47 Scorpio

My Geocentric North Pluto Node in 18'18 Capricorn
sextile my Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio
semisquare Moon - '07

The Eris Nodes which are in the same position in both Geocentric and Heliocentric systems are strong in my chart

Eris Nodes in 5'30 Taurus/Scorpio
oppose/conjunct my Sun in 5'20 Scorpio

Raymond

posted November 23, 2008 02:30 PM         

I feel the same about you.

We're on the same page. I actually left that part out,and I was to edit my last response to go back and put it in there. hehehe

Bucketrider is one of those other controversial astrologers in the way that he doesn't just go by things and questions challenges mainstream astrological concepts. I think that he's cool too. He doesn't come off condescending nor patronizing either.
I disagree with him a lot like with the latest view on biquintile,but I do respect him as an astrologer and person.

posted November 23, 2008 05:05 PM         

One of my petpeeves is a person talking to me like I am stupid or incompetent like I don't know a thing, especially if I express a viewpoint that he/she disagrees with. Of course,a lot of people treat other people like they are stupid and call people stupid because they express views that don't concur with their own. It's no different from things that go on with religion.

also it wasn't my grandmother that committed suicide. It was my grandfather. I said maternal grandfather.

also..my Pluto is not quincunx Mars. It's a biquintile which is 144 degree angle. Also...it is also a golden section aspect with Sun and Pluto...so it has a corresponding midpoint picture of Pluto square Sun/Mars midpoint which I already pointed out in the thread.

another thing, I don't appreciate you psychoanalyzing and judging me based on my chart. I don't do any of that to anybody. I don't use a person's chart to judge somebody's actions. I don't be going around saying that this planet is strong in them because of how they are reacting or acting. I don't believe in using Astrology to judge people, especially not to judge and psychoanalyze people just because of perceived reactions in regards to a response that I perceived as condescending,patronizing. IMHO I think that it's unethical,and it's something that I don't do as an astrologer. I don't go around psychoanalyzing based on their chart to prove my point,especially when it's a matter of alternative viewpoints like my thread is about.

also...being passionate is Mars stuff
I have Moon conjunct Mars. I have Mercury-Venus square Mars. I have Mercury conjunct the heliocentric nodes of Mercury and Mars.
I have a lot of midpoints that involve Mars whether it's the apex or part of the halfsum for instance Mars oppose Mercury/Saturn midpoint and Mercury square Mars/Node midpoint are some of them.

I am a very passionate person in general.

also I am very intense,but like I said earlier in my post, those can be from not only Pluto but also Pluto's fellow kuiper belt objects...my Ixion is only 5 minutes conjunct my Sun,and my Orcus is only 1 minute contraparallel my Sun. They are both Kuiper belt objects and plutinos, and they orbit like Pluto. They could be intense,passion too like its fellow kuiper belt object,Pluto. I even have Moon square Varuna with only 10 minutes of arc,and that's a kuiper belt object too. That was the whole point of my posts...that the other kuiper belt objects can be about intensity and transformation too..not just Pluto.

you pointed out the same stuff that other astrologers on another forum pointed out to me in regards to my post about Pluto.

so I am going to post the same thing..

so here goes:

"As for the Plutonian transformation - that chart had a very charged Pluto transit too - Pluto right on your Saturn/Jupiter opposition (Jupiter ruling your 4th House of maternal figures)."

Yes..I know that...I even included in my post:

'what was Pluto doing at the time?
Transiting Pluto in 7'30 Sagittarius
conjunct natal Jupiter in 8'17 Sagittarius'

'Transiting Pluto did not make any aspects to personal planets,points like the other kuiper belt objects do. In both events,it was aspecting my Jupiter. Some astrologers would say that's significant because it rules my 4th house. That's according to my chart in the tropical zodiac. Sidereal zodiac Astrologers would say that Mars rules my 4th house,and it was quincunx by Orcus during the first event.'

The reason why I typed that part is some astrologers would say that's significant because it rules my 4th house because I want to put that in there just in case astrologers point it out to me like you did. I like to cover my butt(I learned about that in the navy). A lot of astrologers will tend to point out obvious things to me(and other people) that I(and others) already know about. Therefore,I make sure that I type out the obvious things that many astrologers would point out to me. It's covering my butt. I also made the point that Pluto didn't make any aspects to personal planets,points like the other kuiper belt objects do. After all,not all astrologers use houses. Cosmobiologists don't use houses at all. They wouldn't care if a planet aspects the house ruler.
They don't believe in house rulers. They only care about planets aspecting personal planets and points as well as midpoints that involve personal planets and points like Midheaven,Ascendant,Sun,and Moon.

I also knew about the transit to Saturn,but I didn't include that transit because it was separating over 2 degrees. IMHO transits past even half a degree aren't that significant.

"Then, I don't think it is fair to say you are not a plutonian person because the sidereal zodiac puts your planets in Libra. There are so many systems and perspectives, you can always end up proving or disproving your points jumping from one system to another."

I never said that I am not a Plutonian person because the sidereal zodiac puts my planets in Libra.

this is what I actually typed

"Also...I know that I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in Scorpio along with Pluto in 1st,and all those togther are supposed to make me highly Plutonian. Can I really be sure about that? After all, I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in Libra in the Sidereal Zodiac. I have Sun in the constellation of Virgo with alpha Virgo star,Spica being my heliacal rising star. I have Mercury in the constellation of Libra in alignment with beta Libra star Zuben Eschamali,and my Venus is in the constellation of Libra too. Therefore knowing this stuff,I have my doubts that I really am a Plutonian,and I shouldn't take being a Plutonian for granted based on my tropical sign placements. I believe that aspects are a lot more important,and so I focus more on planetary geometry."

I never made an actual definite statement that I am not a Plutonian person because my planets are in Sidereal Libra. I was asking how can I be sure that I am Plutonian person by my Sun,Mercury,and Venus in Scorpio along with my Pluto in 1st,expressing uncertainty. I said that I have doubts about being Plutonian. I even made a point that I shouldn't take being a Plutonian for granted based on my tropical sign placements and my belief that aspects are a lot more important,and so I focus more on geometry in Astrology.

so there was no where where I said that I am not Plutonian because my planets are in the Sidereal Zodiac. Furthermore, I also mentioned my planets in the actual constellations.
That's why I even pointed out that my Sun is in the actual constellation of Virgo when my Sun is in Libra in the Sidereal Zodiac. The Sidereal Zodiac is not completely aligned with the constellations. They are not an equal 30 degrees like Sidereal and Tropical Zodiac signs. They are uneven in their spans with Scorpius being very small and Virgo being the largest of all of them as well as Ophiuchus is one of the zodiac constellations but not into

"There are so many systems and perspectives, you can always end up proving or disproving your points jumping from one system to another."

Because there are so many systems and perspectives in Astrology, I stay away from the negative Erisian approach of "You're Right and I am wrong" which was something Eris' discoverer,Michael Brown noted about his giving Eris the name to the object. I have noticed a lot of astrologers can be like that with all the diversity that is in Astrology. It's the same with religion,politics,and ideologies in general. I pretty much agree to disagree.

I also want to reiterate that I am not saying Tropical Zodiac nor Sidereal Zodiac is not valid. I was only expressing alternative viewpoints about things. That's why I even brought up the points about the sidereal zodiac and constellation placements. I was only expressing an alternative point which could give me a reason to have uncertainty and doubt about my tropical zodiac sign placements. That's what my post was about any way...expressing alternative viewpoints as well as expressing my view that Pluto's fellow dwarf planets,transneptunians,and Kuiper belt objects can be just as important as Pluto in Astrology. I also made the point that Pluto is not the transformer in my life. I never said that it wasn't a transformer period.

That's why I even typed this part:
'With my weighing it all, I would say that the other kuiper belt objects were far more transformative than Pluto in my life,and they are more transformative in me period. That doesn't necessarily mean that Pluto is not a transformer. It definitely it is, but the transformative aspects of Pluto are highly outweighed by the transformative aspects of the other kuiper belt objects in my natal chart and my two most transformative events. Therefore, the other kuiper belt objects are THE transformers for me. '

the reason that I even wrote that is to cover my butt, being prepared for other astrologers to tell me how Pluto is a transformer and make examples of how it is in their lives.
(but some astrologers already have done that any way on other astrology groups,forums........just today,one astrologer even emailed offered me to show me how Pluto works in the chart like I am not familiar with it....just because a person has alternative views about something doesn't mean that he/she doesn't have a clue about the subject. That is how I and other astrologers have been approached by some astrologers who have don't share our views about the subject that we have alternative viewpoints on.)

note that I said that Pluto definitely is a transformer,but I said that the other kuiper belt objects are the transformers for me. I didn't say that Pluto wasn't a transformer. I even made a statement to concur with the viewpoint that Pluto is a transformer. However, I said that the other kuiper belt objects are the transformers for me with an an emphasis on the. I never wrote that Pluto is not the transformer period. I was just trying to stress that Pluto is not the transformer in my life even though it is in other's lives.

FYI....I do whatever I can to cover my butt when I post just in case people point out the obvious things to me that I might chose to leave out as well as to cover any questions that people might ask about what i posted on.

That's why my posts tend to be long. I want to show what I know what I am talking about. One of my petpeeves is people being condescending,patronizing like I am incompetent or don't know what I am talking about, especially if it's something that I present that they disagree with. Therefore, I include a lot of information in my posts. Some astrologers will think and accused me that my ideas are based on the name of the object. That's why I include stuff on astronomy as well as orbital,physical features....even stress that insights in an object can be gained by not just its name but also its astronomical features. Philip Sedgwick stresses all this. He is one of the astronomically oriented astrologers. I even had included an url of an article about astronomically oriented astrologer, Juan Revilla wrote about finding how an object works in astrology by its orbital symbolism and not by its name. Many astronomically oriented astrologers do investigate/research objects that have no names, based on the astronomical features like Philip Sedgwick who even creates keywords for objects based on the sign of its heliocentric node and perihelion, and I have applied that to Sabian Symbol placements. Many of these astrologers suggested names of centaurs that were accepted,and Nessus was the first one. Philip Sedgwick is one of them. They studied its astronomical features,and then they came up with a name. I have a lot of respect for Philip Sedgwick. I have his Galactic Trilogy CD with ASTRONOMY FOR ASTROLOGERS,SOUL OF THE SKY,and SUN AT THE CENTER.

posted November 23, 2008 05:08 PM         

It was that sentence that upset me a bit. Especially since it`s a sentence I have come across not only in this thread, but have read it on so many other threads on here lately as well.

I don`t think anyone here should judge anyone else`s interpretation as right or wrong. All we can express are opinions and theories. And I`m just a little bit tired of reading that again and again, that someone is said to be a bad astrologer, or interpreting badly, or just plainly wrong or even stupid, just because he may not agree with someone else.
My words weren`t directed at Cristiname alone; I think labels like "wrong", "bad" or "stupid" have almost been becoming symptomatic for this forum.

I used to really like coming on here, cause there was an exchange of ideas without judging each other, and I learned a lot on here.
But lately that has changed.
I still come on here, because I still can learn a lot here, and I like some of the topics, but the dogmatism that has been creeping into this place (or maybe I just noticed it now) really starts to annoy me.
It`s really a pity, because there are great astrologers on here and very nice people.