posted December 09, 2006 02:37 PM         

Didnt it also talk of humility and love.....

I know what I see and feel....

And if at times, we dont speak out, things can only get worse...

Apologies, to my mind, are still needed...

Those accusations were downright cruel.....whatever had gone on...

Just a simple sorry.....is a start isnt it?

I have never seen you Zala abuse or name call or threaten anyone, you come across eloquent and calm....and you contribute plenty to this board...

posted December 09, 2006 02:44 PM         

that's manipulation. ...

posted December 09, 2006 02:49 PM         

quote:

---

"Jesus loved and accepted others without approving of everything they did."
.....and this is how I feel about my friendships.

---

posted December 09, 2006 02:52 PM         

to condone a behaviour is
to represent it!

people will have to choose
what side they are on...

for there are two sides to everything

and each is getting stronger and stronger

Walk the Line

but don't dilly-dally
jumping from one side
to the other...

LOve LOve LOve. ...

posted December 09, 2006 02:54 PM         

I hear what you say....but i hope on some level you understand where I am coming from too....

Some things just dont feel "right"....

posted December 09, 2006 02:59 PM         

Just to think, up until a few months ago I totally blanked you and now we are speaking again....

Didnt we apologise to each other for all that ridiculous stuff we went through, and if I remember rightly you did so quite humbly....

Thanks, appreciated for sure...

posted December 09, 2006 03:01 PM         

Big changes are ahead..
we need to walk in LOve and Light

I think we are running out of excuses..
Our Shades of Grey...

we have much to fix..

I LOve you Sue

posted December 09, 2006 03:02 PM         

Wishing you peace, calm and a tranquil time....soon to come!

Love to you...

xx

posted December 09, 2006 03:04 PM         

Bless you girl...

I know you mean well and you have been minsuderstood...but I know your is in the right place...

Sending love to you too girl...

After all, what do we have if we dont have Love?

I have seen it transform people within minutes seconds in fact....I love you....such a powerful statement, used too seldom.

The last two psychic readings I had, both said I have love in abundance around me....I can feel some of that comes from here....

Wonderful it is....

posted December 09, 2006 03:13 PM         

quote:

---

Zala,
do you email Heart--Shaped Cross?

---

posted December 09, 2006 03:28 PM         

judgements are done through the Law

posted December 09, 2006 03:52 PM         

Its difficult at times, when we care, isnt it, but sometimes Ive found if we push the person too hard, we lose them...

I suppose all one can do is pray that all will be well...

Do you think Taureans as well as Scorpios find it hard to let go too....?

posted December 09, 2006 04:02 PM         

I'm Taurus with Scorpio Moon...
and you are re-verse
ahahahahaha
Cool!

posted December 09, 2006 04:08 PM         

Mother hen...haha....

Our son wont let me "cluck cluck" over him...I gave up on that about 3 years ago...he just puts his hand up and says "stop mum"....haha...he is a cute little Scorpio who is gonna be my BIGGEST teacher!!!!!!

posted December 09, 2006 04:13 PM         

two teenage cancer girls..
16 year old has Moon in Scorpio, like me
and the other, 15, has Moon in Leo..
they are my greatest teachers!

you know, we are all connected,
so how can we ever really let go?

In OverSoul..we are all together

posted December 09, 2006 04:24 PM         

Aahhhh....lovely.....as long as we dont stand tooooo close hey....then we shall be fine...

Good luck with your young Crabs....bless em...our little gems...

posted December 10, 2006 12:40 AM         

Getting back to the topic. I have been reading more on this subject and this article deals specifically with narcissists.

I also intend to multiple post this on the other narcissists thread to add to the awareness and discussion. I am happy to hear that it is seen by most people who respond to be helpful. I had a male friend who fit this pattern to a T and also wish I knew this at that time. I ended up putting him out of my life for good and was happy to read here that is the only thing you can do as these people never change. Mainly because they can't take first step in any change which to admit that they have a problem because they blame everything on others. It is never their fault. They are never wrong.

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. [At this point, if you're like me, you sort of panic and want to talk to anyone who will listen about what is going on: this is a healthy reaction; it's a reality check ("who's the crazy one here?"); that you're confused by the narcissist's contrariness, that you turn to another person to help you keep your bearings, that you know something is seriously wrong and worry that it might be you are all signs that you are not a narcissist]. NOTE: Normal people can behave irrationally under emotional stress -- be confused, deny things they know, get sort of paranoid, want to be babied when they're in pain. But normal people recover pretty much within an hour or two or a day or two, and, with normal people, your expressions of love and concern for their welfare will be taken to heart. They will be stabilized by your emotional and moral support. Not so with narcissists -- the surest way I know of to get a crushing blow to your heart is to tell a narcissist you love her or him. They will respond with a nasty power move, such as telling you to do things entirely their way or else be banished from them for ever. ^

If you're like me, you get into disputes with narcissists over their casual dishonesty and cruelty to other people. Trying to reform narcissists by reasoning with them or by appealing to their better nature is about as effective as spitting in the ocean. What you see is what you get: they have no better nature. The fundamental problem here is that narcissists lack empathy.
Lacking empathy is a profound disturbance to the narcissist's thinking (cognition) and feeling (affectivity). Even when very intelligent, narcissists can't reason well. One I've worked with closely does something I characterize as "analysis by eggbeater." They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't grasp the meaning of the written word either -- because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words. (Discussions with narcissists can be really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of the same words means that they are following a line of conversation or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies, apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others are talking about.) And, frankly, they don't hear all the words, either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it. This is not merely a bad habit -- it's a cognitive deficiency. Narcissists pay attention only to themselves and stuff that affects them personally. However, since they don't know what other people are doing, narcissists can't judge what will affect them personally and seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get trouble back. They won't take other people's feelings into consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get really ****** off by being lied to or lied about. ^

Narcissists lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations -- though, again, this can be obscure to casual observation if you don't know what they think their reputations are, and what they believe others think of them may be way out of touch with reality [see remarks on John Cheever elsewhere on this page]. Their moral intelligence is about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules they recognize are things that have been specifically required, permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they know personally. Anyhow, narcissists can't be counted on not to do something just because it's wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can't stop them or punish them (i.e., they don't care what you think unless they're afraid of you). ^

Narcissists are envious and competitive in ways that are hard to understand. For instance, one I knew once became incensed over an article published in a national magazine -- not for its content exactly, but because she could have written something just as good. Maybe she could have -- she hadn't, but that little lapse on her part was beside the point to her. They are constantly comparing themselves (and whatever they feel belongs to them, such as their children and furniture) to other people. Narcissists feel that, unless they are better than anyone else, they are worse than everybody in the whole world. ^

Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. It is also connected to their overall negative outlook on life. ^

Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) -- or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again -- it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." -- sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave -- narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then -- well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence -- this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while -- a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't want to change -- they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and less outside influence to keep them in check. ^

Narcissists are hostile and ferocious in reaction, but they are generally passive and lacking in initiative. They don't start stuff -- they don't reach out. Remember this when they turn and rend you! They will complain about the same things for years on end, but only rarely do anything to change what dissatisfies them so badly. ^

Narcissists are naive and vulnerable, pathetic really, no matter how arrogant and forceful their words or demeanor. They have pretty good reasons for their paranoia and cynicism, their sneakiness, evasiveness, prevarications. This is the one I get suckered on. They are so out of touch with other people and what goes on around them that they are very susceptible to exploitation. On the other hand, they're so inattentive, and so disconnected from what other people are up to, that they don't recognize when someone is taking advantage of them. ^