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posted September 27, 2007 12:11 AM         

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From what I've been reading about it, it seems like these women are so desperate to get their relationship back on track they'll do it at the expense of their sense of self. The more I learn about it, the more creeped out I am - especially when I read things like these wives saying things like "you are my husband and I will stand by whatever you say" in a (and I quote) 'ROBOTIC VOICE'... omg... seriously. I'm getting agitated.

Thanks for the explanation, Xodian - so the Pluto in Libra generation is about the transformation of old relationship roles, then? Being a Pluto in Libra myself, that could explain why this 'surrendered wife' phenomenon grates against me so badly - it's like "hey, we did this for you and you throw it back in our face!"

It's nice to know that not all men want their partners to be like this. Oh, actually... it defies the concept of 'partners' altogether really doesn't it...

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posted September 27, 2007 01:08 AM         

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Lol! Why am I picturing the "Stepford wives" all of a sudden? *Shakes head.*

quote:

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so the Pluto in Libra generation is about the transformation of old relationship roles, then?

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Oh definately so and re-defining relationships as well . Pluto in Libra generation started the trend that carried on a deep-seated message for us Pluto in Scorpio gen. With us though, personal freedom was elevated to a whole new level. Where Pluto in Libra gen. open the doors to radical changes in relationships, Pluto in Scorpio gen. took things even further, being so openly accepting about quite a lot of things that are were considered quite taboo in a more classic model of society. Gay rights, Acceptence of of Bi-sexuality, Open relationships, and the creation of MTV LOL!

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From: Pleasanton, CA, USA
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posted September 27, 2007 01:35 AM         

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Pluto in Libra:

    You are part of a 12 year group of people who are deeply interested in personal relationships. Your age group has a deeply-rooted yearning to see people relating and communicating with each other effectively and harmoniously. There is little egotism and a willingness to hear the other person's side of the story and a readiness to compromise and arbitrate different points of view. In fact, the need for harmonious, peaceful relationships is so strong that there is a tendency to overlook real differences and to focus only on the similarities in an attempt to bring different parties into harmony with each other.

    Interest in psychology and sociology is high in your age group. There is a tremendous heightening of awareness of social skills. Your age group will experiment with different marriage styles, family relationships, and even business relationships in an attempt to bring fair treatment and effective communication between people. Interest and appreciation for other cultures is also strong, and your age group will work hard to preserve and support the cultural heritage of all ethnic groups.

    Your strong yearning for equitable and harmonious relationships is also reflected in major advancements in trade agreements, arms control, and international cooperation that are designed and implemented by your generation. These agreements and policies foster a much safer and more cooperative environment for all, although there is also a tendency for greedy individuals to take advantage of the conciliatory atmosphere and twist situations to their own ends.

    In short, you are part of a generation of individuals who are deeply interested in other people; you are a humanistic and humanitarian group. You will struggle and experiment with personal relationships, and forge new models for how people can relate as friends, family members, and members of nations as well.

Uranus in Libra:

    You are part of a 7 year group of people who strive for greater equality in relationships. You treat parents, children, and spouses much more like friends and equals than other generations do, and many of you will experiment with alternative marriage styles that allow for greater freedom and equality in relationships.

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posted September 27, 2007 02:26 AM         

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Cool. Thanks for that Xodian and AG! The Pluto in Libra description does seem to fit me and others who I know... I'm a Uranus in Scorpio... 0 degrees, is that really the Libra/Scorpio cusp? Just wondering...

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From: Pleasanton, CA, USA
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posted September 27, 2007 02:37 AM         

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Both of those interps are in my chart. I thought Uranus was similar in nature to what you were talking about.

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posted September 27, 2007 02:46 AM         

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Yes, absolutely...

So I'm guessing that Saturn in Libra people take relationships overly seriously? Maybe these subservient wives are all Saturn in Libra's... hmm, wait... wouldn't Saturn in Libra be similar to having Saturn in the 7th house? THAT'S ME... lol

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posted September 27, 2007 02:53 AM         

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Ok I just found this at Bob Marks' website:

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Saturn in Libra: needs a partner in order to feel safe and secure. But it doesn’t have to be a marriage partner, nor does it have to be permanent. They simply need someone around to help them knock around ideas. Since Saturn is also the planet of fear, this placement of Saturn can also give fears with respect to partners. Perhaps, for example, a fear of loosing them or of making a mistake and driving them away.

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And this at MyAstrologyBook:

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Saturn is best placed (exalted) in Libra, the sign of balance and relationship—for where but in relationship to other human beings are we so sorely tested? Through the arts of responsibility, patience, flexibility and endurance we can relate to others over extended periods of time. With this placement you need to let go of competition and develop a habit of cooperativeness. If Saturn is afflicted you'll have difficult karma in relationships and marriage due to a lack of cooperation in past lives. In this case marriage will be a discipline for you, and love your path out.

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Interesting because those descriptions DO actually fit what I've read in Saturn in 7th interpretations. Maybe these women have afflicted Saturn in Libra or 7th... then again... SO DO I. Damn it. (Mine is Saturn in Cancer in 7th... I feel secure when I have a home, and most of all I like to live with a partner - I actually feel insecure if I'm not living with someone else, it doesn't even have to be a romantic relationship).

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posted September 27, 2007 03:09 AM         

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Yes but just to add on what you wrote;

Taken from Astrology weekly:

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In order to succeed in your social position in the world you will have to gain knowledge and expertise relating to human relationships at a social and personal level. Life experience will force you to learn valuable lessons related to the development of social awareness and a strong sense of responsibility in relationships. You must come to realise that co-operation, justice and mutual agreement are necessary for stable, enduring friendships and partnerships. Receptiveness, tact, reliability and good organising skills could bring wealth and social standing.

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So I don't think Saturn in Libra girls have a tendency towards submissiveness. On the contrary from what I can gather it seems their life goal is to find equality in a relationship.

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posted September 27, 2007 04:03 AM         

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Good points. It may be more difficult to achieve that equality if the Libra Saturn is afflicted, do you think?

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posted September 27, 2007 04:06 AM         

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I wonder if a harsh Pluto aspect could be involved... ?

I say that because apparently many of these women have been in marriages that were a power struggle - and the power struggle ends only after they give up control, rather than the relationship coming to an agreement of equality. There IS an agreement of sorts, but it just doesn't seem to be very equal or balanced in the end.

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posted September 27, 2007 08:25 AM         

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quote:

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So I'm guessing that Saturn in Libra people take relationships overly seriously? Maybe these subservient wives are all Saturn in Libra's...

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Hmmmm, I really doubt that these voluntarily-powerless wives have Saturn in a *CARDINAL* sign..... Yes, we Saturn in Libras take ALL relationships seriously: from partnerships to friendships/family to one's favorite store-clerks and co-workers (altho I'm also a Sun Libran so that energy may be amplified). Libra is all about compromise -- but compromise means Give AND Take, not just Give-Give-Give.

I find it *very* hard to fathom how anyone can voluntarily reject/suppress the expression of their wants and needs and defer to another person. I guess the total lack of responsibility for decision-making could be comforting to some, but putting someone else's needs/wants/opinions ahead of my own in *every* interaction with them is anathema to me.....

I like what GL75 said in the beginning: it kinda defies the concept of partners. I guess it really hasn't been that long since women escaped the role of "slave" and then "helpmate" and moved towards more equal status -- and in some places in the world today, they *still* haven't escaped it. And after all, American women only gained the Right To Vote in 1919.....

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posted September 27, 2007 08:02 PM         

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LOL GeminiLover, yeaaaa ok with that. Lol good luck to that woman. I say deeeeniiiiiaaaal!!! If not existing and being a slave is her definition of a saved marriage then no thank you. Im all for compromising but u can ask my Mr. Gemini what happens when anyone tells me what to do! HA! i know you know what I mean my dear!

P.S. its cool you and Xodian met. I was hoping to have my two LL best friends will eventually meet up. lolz

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posted September 27, 2007 08:03 PM         

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Kinda goes with this. Hehe ignorant ppl make me laugh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUP9Jm9SqvY

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posted September 27, 2007 11:59 PM         

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lol BUD, yeah I'm the same - anyone who gets in relationship with me should be pre-warned that telling me what to do is NOT gonna fly.

Yeah... ok good to hear from a Saturn in Libra. I wasn't sure about that... what do you think about if the Saturn is afflicted though? Although I'm now thinking the whole thing seems more Plutonic. If Saturn in 7th in similar to Saturn in Libra, then I can relate - the taking seriously of relationships, the importance of partnership etc. I would be interested to examine the natal charts of a few of these subservient women.

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posted September 28, 2007 02:04 AM         

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I'm not sure it is an aspect in that sense. I think it is more an issue of being at the end of their rope and then just blindly following an "expert" since they are ignorant of cultural gender issues, biology, etc and then when it seems to work becoming fanatic followers and making it their dogma.
I would look for an aspect that suggested something aspecting Jupiter and causing a fanatical reaction. But I don't know what I am talking about... just talking.
Did it say how long this has been "working" for her? Polygamy works for some people too, or at least they believe it does.

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posted September 28, 2007 04:00 AM         

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Hmm yeah. Good point. The fact that they feel like they have to take such drastic measures does make me wonder what kind of partner they attracted if the relationship was going so badly in the first place? And why the ususal things like talking and listening, and co-operation couldn't be part of the solution?

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posted September 29, 2007 03:42 PM         

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Ohhhh... the kind of partner they are attracted to/attract. Now there is an interesting angle to go at it from... and their parents etc hehe We could be here for a lifetime exploring everything that contributes to the big plan there. And what they are meant to communicate to the world... and if they lie to themselves or have something that makes them willing to settle... or weak wills or aspects that cause events that cause the weak wills (nature/nurture both which can be explained with elaborate astrology). But I guess if we could wrap our minds around all of that we would have expanded our intellect and wisdom enough to be that much closer to understanding the full experience of OurSelves.

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posted September 29, 2007 08:14 PM         

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I'm fascinated by it...

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posted September 30, 2007 03:02 PM         

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.

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posted September 30, 2007 03:50 PM         

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I dunno, I would think that most people who like some BDSM wouldn't want it to form the structure of their real everyday life... then again, sexual fetishes can really take over some people's lives. Even so, that type of thing between couples is based on reciprocity and respect (believe it or not)... ie with the recognition that this is a *role*, not *reality*. The psychological 'minimising' has to involve the ego bouncing back when the game is not being played... otherwise I would imagine that psychological damage would start to happen if their entire life was being lived this way... But who am I to say what other people's tastes are?

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posted September 30, 2007 06:11 PM         

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Oh, the BDSM community is very into this lifestyle. The ones I met were through the game Second Life. There are quite a number of them there, and I had quite a few debates with them. They take it way more seriously than the average person would imagine. I still don't get it.

ArtLovesDawn may be on to something.

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posted September 30, 2007 07:13 PM         

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I can definitely see it. And it's interesting that many people feel empowered by being disempowered. It could be that it becomes a lifestyle in some marriages for the psychological and erotic turn-on of the power-play (from what I understand, the BDSM relationship is still based on trust and on what *both* parties actually *want* out of the exchange), but I'm not sure that's the case for everyone who follows the 'subservient wife' model - in many cases I do believe the woman has done it as a last resort to save their marriage and it's not necessarily something that they want to willingly submit to.

There is definitely that element to it though. So if it gets their rocks off, well... ok. They just don't need to promote it as the ideal way to run a marriage, when not everyone *enjoys* being submissive all day long, and within many relationships this is the kind of thing that could turn VERY unhealthy (IMO).

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posted September 30, 2007 10:03 PM         

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Just thinking...

You know how there's all this theory and talk about men not knowing their role anymore since women have largely left behind the 'chained to the kitchen sink' mentality, become money-earners, and so on? I don't know how true it holds for most guys out there, but I do constantly hear a lot of theorising about it - eg the "men have lost power and now they don't know how to operate in relationships and in society" type of reasoning. It's been used to explain, for example, why there are so many violent crimes against women. (Personally I think that's b.s. - obviously, not every man runs around raping and murdering). Maybe to some women this 'submissive wife' thing is partly a way to metaphorically hand back the power, pat them on the head and humour them - I wonder if some of these wives do see it that way? And are men REALLY that disturbed by women breaking away from their traditional roles?? Personally I don't know any guys who think that women should stay at home to do the cooking and cleaning...

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posted October 01, 2007 11:30 AM         

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quote:

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And are men REALLY that disturbed by women breaking away from their traditional roles??

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Progressively, Not in the LEAST bit. Actually its quite welcomed to tell you the truth. If BOTH partners are perfectly financially set, it can allow them to function perfectly as a family unit without the feeling of inadequacy (well... minus the fact that if they didn't want kids to begin with Lol!)

Here is a little journal on dual career families:
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/ViewContentServlet?Filename=Published/EmeraldFullTextArticle/Articles/1370020504.html

It seems like the younger couples of this generation seem to accommodate their partner's ambitions as compared to 15-20 years ago. Its just those who have been reared in with traditional thinking have a hard time transiting over to the realities of the world.

And on the topic of BDSM:

In most cases, its accepted as just role-play; Just a little something to spice up in their sex-lives, though on the large front I doubt they apply it to their everyday lives (minus those who choose to do so.)

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posted October 19, 2007 07:40 AM         

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I've read through this topic a few times and just turned away deciding it wasn't worth replying. Today I just didn't turn away. Sorry. For those of you who made the distinctions between a voluntary SAHM or housewife as opposed to a simply "subservient" woman, thank you.

For anyone who didn't/doesn't make that distinction, I'd just like to say that simply because you think you'd be "unfullfilled" by or "lazy" for being a SAHM/housewife, it doesn't mean all of us are and it's insulting to suggest otherwise.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/24/opinion/main682922.shtml
http://www.donfeder.com/filecabinet/03102006.doc

(I won't post the entire articles here but will post them in H&H as it seems, imo, more appropriate.)

Yeah, I know, chalk it up to a lack of clarity and the I-didn't-mean-that's, etc. It's fine, I understand. Just adding my own two cents in the time I have where I'm not ... what was it? "Chained to my sink". Thanks.

PS
Seriously, not trying to start a "fight". Just had to get that off my chest.

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