posted March 15, 2003 10:11 PM              

Here's the big perspective:

1) Osama bin Laden (or terrorists in general) = enemy of the US

2) Saddam Hussein = enemy of the US

3) What do two smaller groups do when they share a extremely formidable enemy... cooperate

4) Are you going to trust your life & the lives of your loved to Saddam Hussein?

5) Meaning you are going to place your faith in a man that kidnaps, kills, & oppresses his own people to not allow his weapons to get into the hands of terrorists? Who will then, in turn, use them against the civilians in the US?

"Thousands of innocent people will be injured, possibly killed if this war should happen and in a country like iraq, the effects would be just devastating!"
-So the better option is to allow him to provide the means for terrorist to do it us? Not to mention let him continue to do it to his own people? I think not

"This country has been bombed and tortured for years and the consequences of this means trauma!"
-First, are you fricken kidding me? Saddam tortures his only people, other nations don't. These last 10 years we haven't bomb civilians, we blowup anti-air missiles batteries that shoot upon our jets enforcing the no-fly zone.
-Second, if he does not comply, & the US is forced to overtake his regime, THE STANDARD OF LIVING WILL BE MUCH MUCH HIGHER ONCE HE IS OUT OF POWER. Think about the big picture, not the small one.
-Third, if he would have simply complied with the terms of the treaty he signed at the end of the Gulf War then all embargos would be lifted, once again he does these things to his own people.

"I don't belive this war is about September 11th, there are no physical links to Sadam Hussein and Al Quaeda."
-If you really believe this, then you should just stay in your bubble; that way you won't get hurt when the Anthrax attack comes to your country. THAT is an example of how a weapons-grade biological weapon can get in the hands of terrorists, rumored to have come from Iraq as well.

"Sure Saddam and his army need to be brought down but not at the expense of the expected 100,000 civilians who will be injured in the violence of such a desperate force of attack."
-Is that an exact estimate based on a research study, or your estimation?

"The best way the tyranny in Iraq can be overcome is by empowering the people themselves to rise up against the regimes... ( no easy feat i know)..."
-I give you credit on this one, at least you've have provided a solution, and that's good. We're working in the right direction now, but like you said I think the 30 years of manipulation & torture have broken the spirit of these poor people & they are w/o a will to stand against such a ferocious tyrant

Something we agree on is that War needs to never occur, the word needs to be taken out of our dictionary. But for humanity to evolve we HAVE to address these threats once & for all, they AREN'T going to go away on their own.
Does the bully ever stop bullying just because he has a sudden attack of conscious? NO

I'm sorry to come across so strongly lately, & I promise you I am different in the non-political threads, but as you can see I'm very passionate as well.

I've decided to become a hardliner on this issue in an attempt to broaden people's perspectives

I will pick apart any argument that I does not hold water.

Whoever finds holes in my argument please throw them back at me & we will discuss it.

posted March 16, 2003 12:27 AM              

The effects on the civilian population arising from serious damage to the country’s infrastructure and disruptions to food distribution would be disastrous and drive massive numbers of people to flee for survival. Many Iraqi children are already malnourished and prone to sickness from the effects of sanctions and their plight will be exacerbated with the onset of war.

A military attack on Iraq could also provoke a disastrous breakdown in social order, with the danger of attacks on civilians, and the possible eruption of renewed abuses by Iraqi authorities, armed opposition groups or violence between different ethnic, religious and social groups.

The Secretary General of Amnesty International, Irene Khan, has launched a worldwide petition to the UN Security Council members in a bid to avoid a human rights disaster of unprecedented gravity in Iraq. As part of this approach she is urging the United Nations Security Council to carefully further consider the consequences of any attack. She is also urging the Security Council to immediately deploy human rights monitors throughout Iraq to report on human rights abuses by any party.

Before the onset of war shouldn’t the following be clarified?

* Whether they would be prepared to publicly support a call for the immediate deployment of human rights monitors in Iraq;
* Specifically what is planed to be done to diminish the adverse effects of an invasion on the Iraqi civilian population, particularly on children;
* The conditions under which the countries involved in an attack would accept Iraqi war refugees, and in what numbers.

I hope that military action is not necessary, but in light that something must be done I’m afraid it may be inevitable. I am however deeply concerned about the consequences of a military attack on Iraq, the use of force to resolve issues between nations. Like I have said before... I don’t believe that war is necessarily the answer, because I am not convinced it is a long-term solution. Lets face it though... if there were any easy solution, we wouldn’t be having this discussion!

Jax.

posted March 17, 2003 11:09 PM              

I would not call it heavy bombing either, I would call it slaughter. Those civilians died, not due to an accidental bombing. There were many many innocent civilians lost because heavily populated areas of Afghanistan were bombed. Now how is that justified?

posted March 18, 2003 05:06 AM              

Alena, im not sure why you posted that link after mine? Was that the justification? A mass amount of death on September 11, plus a mass amount of death October 7, 2001 thru March 2002... what does it equal? All i see that it amounts to is an extremely large amount of innocent lives that should still be here with us.

posted March 18, 2003 06:40 AM              

Jax, your arguments are respected by people who are not pompous enough to dismiss them as worthless rants because they ring differently from their own.

LL and other Leo placement beneficiaries, get a grip on the arrogance, ha? I'm a Leo too, dudes, the lesson is to OVERCOME, not succumb.

posted March 18, 2003 09:27 AM              

I am sorry about your loss. It just seems that if something isn't done about it now, in a few years time we will see a repeat of what happened in 2001... No one in this country is ready for that.

posted March 18, 2003 12:15 PM              

It is narrow-minded to deal only with short-term issues & effects of this conflict...

Think about the world, think about the cost of doing nothing in 5 yrs, or 10yrs, when a missile could reach any of our countries.

Broaden your perspective

Saddam has deceived the world & played distracting & stalling politics in the UN for 12 years now & if you TRULY BELIEVE he is not furiously trying to build nuclear weapons & inter-continental missiles so that he may rise to even greater influence in the world...

Then it's a good thing you have people similiar to me in power to protect your *ss!

And by all means post your opinions!!!!!!

posted March 18, 2003 03:26 PM              

quote:

---

Then it's a good thing you have people similiar to me in power to protect your *ss!

---

Have you thought about enlisting yourself? Yes, I suppose since there will be a war we should have people like you in the military.

posted March 19, 2003 01:05 PM              

Last week, the Shelby County Alabama Legislative Delegation hosted a "Stand Up for America Rally." More than 1,200 people attended including featured speakers Chief Justice Roy Moore, Adjutant General Mark Bowen and Alabama State Auditor Beth Chapman.
Attached is a copy of Mrs. Chapman's speech, which resulted in five standing ovations, tremendous applause and an encore. It's a short read and well worth it.
I hope you enjoy it as we continue to "Stand up for America!"
Stand Up for America Rally Speech By: Beth Chapman
I'm here tonight be! cause men and women of the United States military have given their lives for my freedom. I am not here tonight because Sheryl Crowe, Rosie O'Donnell, Martin Sheen, George Clooney, Jane Fonda or Phil Donahue, sacrificed their lives for me.
If my memory serves me correctly, it was not movie stars or musicians, b! ut the United States Military who fought on the shores of Iwo Jima, the jungles of Vietnam, and the beaches of Normandy. Tonight, I say we should support the President of the United States and the U.S. Military and tell the liberal, tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, hippy, tie-dyed liberals to go make their movies and music and whine somewhere else.
After all, if they lived in Iraq, they wouldn't be allowed the freedom of speech they're being given here today. Ironically, they would be put to death at the hands of Sadam Husssein or Osama Bin Laden. I want to know how the very people who are against war because of the loss of life, can possibly be the same! people who are for abortion?
They are the same people who are for animal rights but against the
rights of the unborn. The movie stars say they want to go to Iraq and serve as "human shields" for the Iraqis. I say let them buy a one-way ticket and go.
No one likes war. I hate war! But the one thing! I hate more is the fact that this country has been forced into war-innocent people have lost their lives - - and there but for the grace of God, it could have been my brother, my husband, or even worse my own son.
On December 7, 1941, there are no records of movie stars treading the blazing waters of Pearl Harbor.
On September 11, 2001; there are no photos of movie stars standing as "human shields" against the debris and falling bodies ascending from the World Trade Center. There were only policemen and firemen - -underpaid civil servants who gave their all with nothing expected in return.
When the USS Cole was bombed, there were no movie sta! rs guarding the ship - - where were the human shields then?
If America's movie stars want to be human shields, let them shield the gang-ridden streets of Los Angeles, or New York City, let them shield the lives of the children of North Birmingham whose mothers lay them down to sleep on the floor each night ! to shelter them from stray bullets.
If they want to be human shields, I say let them shield the men and
women of honesty and integrity that epitomizes courage and embody the spirit of freedom by wearing the proud uniforms of the United States Military. Those are the people who have earned and deserve shielding!
Throughout the course of history, this country has remained free, not because of movie stars and liberal activists, but because of brave men and women who hated war too. However, they lay down their lives so that we all may live in freedom. After all - "What greater love hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friend," or in this case! a country.
We should give our military honor and acknowledgement and not let their lives be in vain. If you want to see true human shields, walk through Arlington Cemetery. There lie human shields, heroes, and the BRAVE Americans who didn't get on television and talk about being a human shield - they were! human shields.
I thank God tonight for freedom - - those who bought and paid for it with their lives in the past - - those who will protect it in the
present and defend it in the future.
America has remained silent too long! God-fearing people have remained silent too long!
We must lift our voices united in a humble prayer to God for guidance and the strength and courage to sustain us throughout whatever the future may hold.
After the tragic events of Sept. 11th, my then eleven -year-old son
said terrorism is a war against them and us and if you're not one of
us, then you're one of them.
So in closing tonight, let us be! of one accord, let us stand proud, and let us be the human shields of prayer, encouragement and support for the President, our troops and their families and our country.
May God bless America, the land of the free, the home of the brave and the greatest country on the face of this earth!
On a personal note: even if you're against this
retaliation, you can side with your country and
not give the enemy the power he is looking for.
Become a voice to the government of the USA
and with honor and dignity, figure out a plan that
is on the side of FREEDOM.