posted May 25, 2004 12:43 PM              

I think Jean Chretien's declining to get involved in Iraq has probably spared Canada from being thrown into the equation, thus saving our Canucky butts, buying us some time while we attempt to beef up our own national defenses, (have you heard about our lamo military?) AND allowing Canada to remain a 'neutral' territory for some Americans to seek refuge in, if they were so inclined.

I still think Micheal Moore is a damn fool for shooting his mouth around the world about your country's weaknesses. As technologically advanced as society is, we're still a society of kingdoms and sovereignity is still a precarious thing. Why would someone in their right mind want to convince the rest of the world of the fact that his homeland is FUBR? Why doesn't the man just lay out the red carpet for an invading army to come and seize power by force? Does he really think that being under the rule of a foreign power would be preferable to being under the rule of the Bush Administration? Because, personally... I think it would be much, much worse.

He's adding fuel to the international fires already burning. Powerful fuel. The guy is a damn fool, for somebody who is so smart. He should put his talents to good use for his homeland, instead of playing a part in it's downfall. He pi$$es me off, that guy. And it's not even my country.

He'd be one of the first to come and hide in Canada too, I'll bet.

posted May 25, 2004 05:33 PM              

...

Realize something: I am an abstract thinker. Facts, figures, and statistics are usually too tedious for me. I leave them to those who are good at that sort of thing. Give me the results of such calculations, though, and I can tell you what they mean, collectively. Psychology is my game, not math. Keep that in mind when you read this.

...

Thank you for responding so directly, jwhop. I could be wrong on (5) about the religious institutions. But you neglected to comment on the other half of that statement, the giant corporations. Surely you can agree with that part? That is the reason we are still killing the planet... too many corporations (car manufacturers and oil companies come readily to mind) would simply go out of business if we were encouraged to develop and use products that do less damage to the Earth. Makes a nice kind of sense why stricter laws against pollution have not been enacted. I tell you what: if I were in charge, recycling would be mandatory by now, the internal combustion engine would be outlawed, and no one would dare touch a rainforest. There are alternatives for all these things.

You also seem to have ignored half of (2). Do you not see the increase in identification requirements... everywhere? There is an international push right now for passports to require biometric identification. (Which is somewhat understandable considering the unrest going on. But still not a good idea in the long run.) Having to show identification to buy super glue does not seem to you like the government getting a bit too involved in every detail of our personal lives? And the social security number (I cannot believe I forgot this), the main number to which all other records kept of us are connected... was never intended for use as an identification. Social security cards were originally printed with the words "Not to be used for identification purposes." Then after so many years, they... stopped printing it. Hmmmmmmmmm. It is not any one specific fact or right lost or need for identification, it is the collective trend that worries me. When you add it up... the sum is 1983. Do you like the idea of having to prove who you are to get into your house or to turn your computer on? Maybe you lack the background in computer technology to be afraid, but I know all too well how easily this could make a "track your every movement" situation possible.

As for (3), the fact that the terrorism is real does not prevent ill-intentioned people from getting "extra mileage" out of the situation. I think you "begged the question" there.

And lastly, from (4)... $158,000 is not high pay??? Let me go look into what percentage of the population makes that...
Well, I hate wading through statistics. How come when I type "average american income" into the search engine I still have to hunt for a straight answer? Anyway. I just spent about 45 minutes looking at different webpages, including the BEA's. Looks like the average American makes somewhere between $30-50,000 per year. Those that make $158,000 are in the top ten percent. Four times the average! Are you still going to claim that making "only" $158,000 is not REALLY GOOD income? It sounds pretty nice to me. (With that I could buy a new house and a new car every year. Maybe not a BIG house or a SHINY NEW car, but one that was good enough for me.) Not all of us dabble in real estate, j. This makes me even more upset over your "hoi polloi" article. If $158,000 per year looks like cheese to you, maybe you have no right to represent the "common man" or "average citizen". Come slummin' around my 'hood for a while, j. See how the rest of us live.

posted May 25, 2004 08:34 PM            

The second part of # 5 rests on whether or not giant corporation contribute more than individuals to political campaigns. Since I easily found the proof that religious organizations are not large contributors to either issues or political campaigns I leave it to you to substantiate the other half of your statement. It requires tedious addition from contributor rolls. I'm not willing to concede the issue to you without proof, however. I will say this about business contributions to political campaigns, they spread their money around, even to those who usually don't support their positions or favored legislation. There is no question in my mind some contributions are direct payoffs and they should be prosecuted---both the business and the recipient.

I think if you go here and check the businesses who donated and how much they donated, you'll come away convinced that individuals give more, much more money to political camgaigns than businesses. http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.asp

You would have loved Algore's plan to ax the internal combustion engine and presumably put all Americans on bicycles---probably Chinese made bicycles since the Communist Chinese were one of the largest contributors to the Bill and Al fiasco. Hey, something more than the classified missile and nuclear technology Bill gave them would have been fair. Don't you think?

I'll withhold judgment on #5 pending your research.

I've never had to show ID to buy super glue or anything else, other than cashing check some places, buying ammunition or guns, renewing my license and of course to police officers who pulled me over for speeding, opening a bank account etc. The rest of what you cite are probably voluntary identifications---those asking for your SS#. Of course, opening a bank account is voluntary, cashing checks is voluntary, buying guns and ammo is voluntary and most of what you do is voluntary. You're perfectly free to use cash and avoid showing any ID, except to police, for licensing etc. I think the old trusty door key will be in use for a long, long time and the day my computer tells me I must swipe my hand or card across a scanner to prove who I am is the day that computer gets its surface contours rearranged.

In any event, you failed to show where you've lost any rights.

$158K is not big pay, not when you consider they have to live most of the year in or around Washington DC. Most of those people barely scrape by on their Congressional salaries---no kidding! Add to that expense, the additional expense of having a home in their state or district and I would think their finances are stretched paper thin. Not all of them are rich paras. There are 2 types who seek office, those who want power and those who want to make a difference. Money isn't a factor because it just isn't there. So perhaps you could buy a house where you live and a car on $158K but have a good look around DC at prices there.

Can't give you that one either.

So, you're against tracking individuals movements, buying habits, etc., but favor forced recycling. Just how would you propose to catch those who don't get with your program? A closed circuit camera in every trash can in America. Surveillance cameras in every home to see how they sort their garbage? Better to put some people to work sorting it at the waste collection sites. If, you want to impose mandatory recycling.

Very telling paras, you complain about big brother and at the same time want to impose regulations on everyone---big brother style. What else would you like to regulate? Would that be intrusive?

posted May 25, 2004 10:36 PM              

In other words, it's sort of okay to bomb women and children with our weapons of mass destruction, and it's maybe a little bit okay to create these horrible malformed little souls in the process, and torture and murder and rape are okay under certain circumstances...

To answer your question, I watched the video only after the 15 points were made that support the idea that it was our own people who did this, getting rid of an anti-war activist in the process and riling up the American people, whose faith in "bringing democracy to the Iraqi people" was flagging with all of the, you know, torture and so on.

Perhaps I intuited that it was not genuine, being an empath and all, but I did not feel the same way toward the baby pictures. I did look at them, for the same reason that I keep a picture beside me right now on my bulletin board called "The Liberation"--showing a WW II soldier being embraced by the most pitiful victim of "nationalism" gone awry...as a reminder "Never again!" THAT is why I am spending so much time trying to awaken people to the perils of our time, and our own need for a regime change here at home

CLANG, CLANG Is anybody listening?

posted May 25, 2004 11:54 PM              

quote:

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the liberals who want to GROW Big Brother. Right?

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Well--what did you expect?...

Um, yes, you are wrong--it is not the liberals who conjured up sounds of Gestapo horns blaring while issuing those federal subpoenas to Drake University students

It was not liberals who ban books and censor free expression

And it most assuredly was not the liberals who created the monstrous "Patriot" Act, that erodes at least five of our amendment rights, and puts us into glass houses. It was snuck in after hours with no time to read it, and our congressmen responded to the name: "Oh, Patriot Act?--Where do I sign?"

Doesn't it shatter your faith in the least that this type of thing is happening more and more? Randall, the government is on our backs, and this should alarm you. Don't be like Jwhop and inanely carry on about irrelevant crap and avoid the issue, after I brought up that thread, to which no one else "responded" (I can't call that a response, inasmuch as it didn't address the issue, as usual, but went off into strange territory indeed) Is this okay with you? Do you have any idea how frightening it is to face unsmiling feds handing you a summons--just for seeking to brainstorm about ways we might approach global problems without bombing each other to bits? Take a minute and think about this, because surely this is against everything we both believe in, and not to be foolishly rationalized away...for it will NOT go away--it is growing and your indifference will carry it along...hey, at least can you assure me somehow that you are doing something to raise the energies of the planet toward the age of Aquarius? Bombing bodies made of flesh and bone does not count.

I really need to hear that, Randall. I admit that it is increasingly difficult to maintain any kind of hope for the future when such blood lust permeates the world--and it is NOT due to anyone caring "about the Iraqi people"--I think that has been established in my new thread.

Whether we agree or disagree about Bush's approach to world government, can we agree that it would be most helpful if we would sow our own seeds of peaceful existence in our everyday lives?

posted May 26, 2004 01:19 AM              

quote:

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You would have loved Algore's plan to ax the internal combustion engine and presumably put all Americans on bicycles---probably Chinese made bicycles since the Communist Chinese were one of the largest contributors to the Bill and Al fiasco. Hey, something more than the classified missile and nuclear technology Bill gave them would have been fair. Don't you think?

---

quote:

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$158K is not big pay, not when you consider they have to live most of the year in or around Washington DC.

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quote:

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Better to put some people to work sorting it at the waste collection sites. If, you want to impose mandatory recycling.

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quote:

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The rest of what you cite are probably voluntary identifications---those asking for your SS#.

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quote:

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Very telling paras, you complain about big brother and at the same time want to impose regulations on everyone---big brother style.

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Comment on raine's recent posts: I have seen the evidence, too. The Nick Berg film is a total fake. That, at the VERY LEAST, is an indication that at least some of our bloated governmen't heart is in the wrong place.

Randall:

quote:

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That doesn't mean Americans would accept ANYTHING the government would try. When they cross the line, they will be put in their place.

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Ugh! I hate guns. Maybe people (all people, not just us Americans) would be less willing to go to war if we had to do it the old-fashioned way, with swords and spears. But then again, maybe not.

OK, I have to go get some stuff done now. But I will look into some of the things you said a little more specifically when I have the time, jwhop.

posted May 26, 2004 01:47 AM              

The self-loathing I'm reading in this forum is gut wrenching. You people are making outrageous, inflamatory claims against your own nation. Apparently no proof is required, you're willing to belief the absolute worst things that any crack pot can dream up, without even batting an eye. Why DO you live there, if you find it so vile? France is lovely, I hear.

Have you not a shred of faith left in your America, the Beautiful? And your fellow Americans?

And how the heck would you know the Nick Berg video is a fake? Just because one of your crack-pot "down with Amerika" spin docters has decreed is so? Well, right on! Must be nice to be all-knowing, all-seeing! Must be quite a burden being so superior to all the chumps who still believe in their country.

All I can say is...shame on you. Glad you're not on MY team.

It's one thing to be constructively critical of certain legitimate aspects that could use improving, but it's another thing altogether to be down right slanderous toward your own homeland.

Eithor you are ignorant to the way in which your putrid attitudes are weakening your own nation, or you're very well aware of it, and that was your plan all along.

I'm glad you're not Canadians, that's all I can say.