posted August 28, 2006 01:48 AM              

I agree with DD. Talking to someone that way about their religion and calling it a "cult of death" and all the other things that Lioneye said is definitely much worse than calling someone a wh*re which got VL banned when Isis called for it.

It is definitely much worse than telling someone they are ugly which is what got VL banned when Pidaua called for it. Or I assume that Pidaua called for it. I do not know that for a fact. I just know she was banned after she said that to Pidaua and beyond that the thread was closed.

There was reference on the other thread regarding the semantics of the term racism. Racism is a way of describing any kind of bigotry toward another person. More than that there might be an ignorance on the part of many regarding Islam. Whereas most Christians only see that as a religious preference which they practice on Sunday but it is not a part of who they are as a person, it is not that way with those who are Islamic. Being Islamic is not just a religious preference that they chose and practice on Sunday. It is WHO they are as a person. It is the same as with the Jewish faith. I was taught that is what Christianity is supposed to be as well but few Christians actually feel that being a Christian is who they are as a person. It only defines their religion.

My point is that to say the things that Lioneye said to DD regarding the Islamic religion is racist to her because it is not just attacking her religion, it is attacking who she is as a person. For that reason the word "racism" does apply here. We use the term Jewish and apply it to both the religion and the people. Same with Hebrew. We use the term Islamic when referring to the people of Islam which describes both the religion and the person. For that reason you cannot attack the religion of either people without it being a direct attack on them. Don't most of us who are Christians feel that to attack our religion is also a personal attack on us? Even if we don't feel it is who we are as a person.

posted August 28, 2006 10:56 AM            

John 8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

first stone What about those who insist on the last stone

DayDreamer, an Inspiration for you from a Friend,

Salam sister,

Your deen is the deen of peace and reconciliation. You know this, your heart experiences this. Why then do you war with yourself through the people? If your iman is weak, it is not the fault of the wise or the ignorant. If your iman is strong, there is nothing to say to the wise or the ignorant. Find the weakness in yourself, cure it and you will come to peace with yourself and thus to peace with others.

Waalaykum salam sister, and may the Peace and Blessing of the Holy Prophet live in your heart and your actions. Amin.

7:179
9:87
16:108
22:46
17:22
39:22

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted August 28, 2006 11:20 AM              

Obviously it did not fade away as the new thread posted orginally in FFA and now moved here to GU clearly indicates.

Granted, it is unpleasant to read, however, when we deny things they may be pushed aside or under the rug for a time but because it has not been addressed it will keep resurfacing.

Denial serves no positive purpose.

A terrible injustice was done here on the GU threads to DD. An attack against her religion which is also a personal attack against her. It was worse than any names that have been called to others around here and that needs to be addressed. It is not just going to go away because you find it all too hard to face.

Are you in favor of religious bigotry that you feel it should not be addressed but just ignored, Juniperb? Do you feel that DD deserves to hear such things said about her religous faith on a daily basis? I don't think so. But it does seem that you are willing to tolerate it for the sake of keeping the peace. Would you tolerate it if it was you and and your religious beliefs being called " a cult of death?" I hope not. How many years did the black people in America suffer racism and bigotry while we tolerated it and turned our heads away? It doesn't stop by tolerating it. It only stopped to a large degree because the black people under the leadership of Martin Luther King Jr. brought the injustice out in the open for all to see.

Yet nothing is preventing you from turning your head and looking the other way if that is what you choose to do. Just don't read the posts.

posted August 28, 2006 01:35 PM              

I'll admit I don't always use as much tact as I should, because I let myself get too worked up sometimes, but I'm certainly making an effort to rectify that.

But, I don't mind telling you, the extremism and extremist ideology coming out of that corner of the globe scares the bejeebers out of me. It's proven to be a very dangerous thing in today's world. That's not a racist thing to say, it's my truth, and the truth of all the reasonable people of the world.

Why is it such a problem for us to have a negative opinion of that extremism? It's certainly not something to be happy about, and I'm not going to pretend I AM happy about it. I can't even feel neutral about it. It scares the crap out of me, and offends my principles on so many levels. It's THIS that I speak out against, not the group as a whole. God bless Muslims who speak out against it as well. Does that make them racist too? Of course not.

Does the fact that I'm not Muslim mean I'm not allowed to voice an opinion? That's not right.

posted August 28, 2006 01:58 PM            

quote:

---

Yet nothing is preventing you from turning your head and looking the other way if that is what you choose to do. Just don't read the posts.

---

Doesn't that apply to everybody here?

------------------
Eleanore
posted August 26, 2006 03:41 PM
"Well, I'll be the first to jump in and say that that isn't true about jwhop. I fall to the left with some of my beliefs in politics sometimes. jwhop and I have had some pretty heated disucssions ourselves and been adamantly opposed to the other one's views but I can't recall ever being personally attacked or verbally abused by him and I'm sure he'd say the same about me."

posted August 28, 2006 02:44 PM            

Ahh... Mirandee, it is so nice to come back from the weekend and see your lying tongue wagging once again.

How many times has VL being banned been brought up? Who asked for it? Oh... you automatically blame me don't you? It is alright that you have an absolute distaste for jwhop and I, but please quit lying in order to make either one of us look bad- it is only making you look like an idiot.

Here is the exact exchange that got VL banned (for the record SHE WAS NEVER BANNED FOR CALLING ME UGLY)

pidaua
Knowflake
Posts: 5282
From: Bisbee, Arizona
Registered: May 2002
posted August 11, 2006 03:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In this article, a reporter wants to know why...since Bush has known for some time about the plot to blow up civilian airplanes over the Atlantic...why Bush didn't tell the press and America when he found out."

Are you kidding? What in the hell is wrong with these people..

Oh wait.. they're idiots

------------------
The democratic world believes that it is not the terrorists that are to blame, but us. Us, the westerners.
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the sooner you eliminate this misconception from your minds, the better.
We are NOT to blame. It is the freaking terrorists and the freaking terrorists only!!!! They are the bad guys. They do not understand concepts like peace, democracy, and respect for human life. They are, pure and simPle, EVIL!!!!! Behind all their political manipulations, if you carefully look at the actions of these MONSTERS, they are EVIL!!

http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000489.htm

Provided by the lovely Lady Lioneye

IP: Logged

Isis
Knowflake
Posts: 1448
From: CA
Registered: Jan 2004
posted August 11, 2006 03:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know Mirandee, I feel sympathy for you. It must be horrible to live in a world where everything is a conspiracy. On the flip side it must be empowering to be one of the handful of people who are "in the know" and "clued in" to what is "really" going on, however to the same degree, extremely frustrating that everyone else "just won't get it."
It's kinda like a loss of innocence. I mean, I know you're an older woman and therefore you've been around the block (and I don't mean that in an insulting Pid vs "Stainblow" kinda way), so it's not like you're 19 and have this massive amount of innocence to lose. But all the same, when you constantly see your own goverment as out to get you/dupe you/screw you over/take something from you/deceive you/etc, it must make the world you live in a sinister, dark place.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should blindly believe in their government, nor do I believe that any government is above conspiratorial BS, but when an individual sees everything that happens by their government as a conspiracy to deceive people...what a dark world with little hope.

I know some older people can tend to be more pessimistic and/or have a "sky is falling" attitude about the state of the nation (I hear it all the time, I volunteer for Meals on Wheels and visit with several elderly people on a regular basis), and it saddens me that people who have so much to share become so negative just through what appears to be sheer aging.

I hope I don't become a cynnical, negative pessimist in my twilight years. It doesn't seem like a really happy space to be in.

IP: Logged

Venusian Love
Knowflake
Posts: 782
From: NYC
Registered: Jun 2006
posted August 11, 2006 03:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't feel sympathy for Mirandee Isis.

Feel sympathy for yourself for being a dirty wh*re who likes one night stands

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/002526.html

Mirandee it is time you stop with your half-truths and your blatent lies. A lie does not have to be bold-faced, it can be an insidious leading down a path that falsly causes people to believe something that isn't true. Such as your posts about ME getting VL banned because she called me ugly.

I have watched your posts for years now and at first when jwhop went after you I didn't understand why. But slowly I started to see your pattern emerge. Little lies and seeds deception were built into your posts. Accusations were blatent but never backed up with facts. My personal favorites are your little insinuations that we did something as horrid as getting someone banned for simply questioning our President- when in fact the person was banned for calling someone a wh*re.

Get your facts straight and debate like an adult instead of using your deceptive tactics to lead others astray.

posted August 28, 2006 02:50 PM            

I never caused her to be banned - she called Isis a who*re twice, the thread was never closed and she has offended almost everyone by calling them lesbians, hicks, wannabe White people, race traitor and who*re. She was NEVER banned, nor did I call on her to be banned when she said derogatory things to me - if that were the case my dear, your beloved Rainbow would have been banned for calling me a b1tch and referring to my "vagina" as a loose gash.

posted August 28, 2006 03:06 PM              

Juniperb, I am disappointed by that statement you posted for me.

quote:

---

Why then do you war with yourself through the people. If your iman is weak, it is not the fault of the wise or the ignorant. If your iman is strong, there is nothing to say to the wise or the ignorant. Find the weakness in yourself, cure it and you will come to peace with yourself and thus to peace with others.

---

Mirandee summed up my feelings about what I see...

quote:

---

And denial serves no positive purpose

---

posted August 28, 2006 03:20 PM            

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted August 28, 2006 03:24 PM              

quote:

---

Racism and Islamophobia

Many apologists for Political Islam claim that to criticize any aspect of Islamic practice is to be guilty of racism and Islamophobia. But much of the criticism is directed not against Islam itself but against Political Islam. And much of the criticism comes from Muslims. How then can this be racism? How then can it be Islamophobia?
Certainly in the west there is a high degree of correlation between race and religion. Muslims in Britain, for example, tend to be of Middle Eastern origin or from the Indian subcontinent, but nevertheless it is dangerous to confuse race and religion. Attempts to make Islamophobia a crime are thinly disguised attempts to silence opposition to Political Islam and Islamic fundamentalism with accusations of racism. The very term Islamophobia is misleading. A phobia is an irrational fear. How can a fear be made a crime? And how can Muslims be accused of racism for our criticism of Political Islam?
It is essential to distinguish between criticism of Political Islam and either fear of Islam or fear, hatred or contempt for ordinary Muslims, who are themselves the victims of Political Islam. Human beings are worthy of respect but not all beliefs and not all practices must be respected. Yet moral criticism of Islamic practices or criticism of the Sharia is often dismissed and demonized as Islamophobic.

No belief and no practice, rational or irrational, scientific or divinely inspired, should be exempt from analysis and examination. If a belief is sound it will stand on its own merits. If it is unsound it deserves to fail. No-one pretending to speak for a religion should seek immunity from an examination of their claims, nor seek freedom from moral criticism of their practices.

---

If you people are going to keep carrying on with erroneous accusations, then I am going to keep carrying on with REALITY. I know some of you don't care for it, but it's what keeps the universe glued together so you'd better make friends with it somehow.

posted August 28, 2006 03:31 PM              

This guy obviously does not live in North America, and probably does not have a clue how people view Islam and Muslims.

He probably does not have to deal with racism, profiling and irrational people.

posted August 28, 2006 03:49 PM              

quote:

---

Ultimately, the only way by which Muslim societies can become democratic, pluralistic, and free from violent extremism, is by going through their own struggles. It cannot be done – as the failure of America’s efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq demonstrates – by imposing colonial rule. But is there any reason to believe that indigenous reform is possible? Islam is immutable, but can Muslims change?

Astonishingly, the Muslim country which offers the most hope for reform is a declared member of Bush’s axis-of-evil. Iran has the finest education system in the Muslim world, a population that is culturally more advanced and accepting of modernity than in Arab countries, and young people who abhor the Islamic theocracy that has ruled the country for over two decades. Even though America refused to take notice of the fact, but immediately after 911 nearly 40,000 Iranians came out to the streets in Tehran and lit candles in sympathy with the American people. Contrast that with celebrations held in countries like Pakistan that are declared US allies!

Such are the paradoxes of the world that we live in.

---

posted August 28, 2006 03:49 PM            

And that

quote:

---

So leave it to them. And focus on your problems here.

---

The article presents a very true, fair and clear perspective. We can't just throw it out the window because you've decided it doesn't apply. I think it applies very well and is a perfectly valid article for lioneye to bring up. What the author says is true and it very likely would do a lot of good if it were applied as truth worldwide. His distinctions are very well made and could even help those who do hold irrational negative feelings for all Muslims because of the current world conflicts to draw the necessary distinctions between the overwhelming majority of peaceable, ordinary Muslims and the others who falsely twist the religion itself to suit their militant and terrorist objectives.

------------------
Eleanore
posted August 26, 2006 03:41 PM
"Well, I'll be the first to jump in and say that that isn't true about jwhop. I fall to the left with some of my beliefs in politics sometimes. jwhop and I have had some pretty heated disucssions ourselves and been adamantly opposed to the other one's views but I can't recall ever being personally attacked or verbally abused by him and I'm sure he'd say the same about me."

posted August 28, 2006 03:57 PM              

Most of you don't know much about Islam.

And you're not living in those countries.

No you can't throw it out the window...it makes sense. But it does not apply to what happened recently in LL.

This does not give lioneye and others to go saying hateful and racist things towards me, and my beliefs based on what little she knows.

posted August 28, 2006 04:21 PM            

I'm kinda sick of you holding the banner of Islam up, speaking for all Muslims, when you can really only speak for yourself and those close to you.

Do you live in Pakistan? (I don't care if you have friends there, so do I). Do you live in ANY of the countries to which we're referring, that are either ruled by extremists or allow extremism to flourish? Have you ever even lived in those countries or spent more than a week visiting one?

I do NOT have to stop saying my opinion regarding the RADICAL ELEMENT OF ISLAM because you don't like what you hear, anymore than Mirandee is going to stop saying what she believes because I don't like it.

You are not an expert on Islam by virtue of being Muslim, and I find it quite presumptuous of you to presume you can speak for the millions of muslims worldwide.

posted August 28, 2006 04:27 PM              

Im not holding up some banner of Islam...but I do have a better idea of whats going on in Pakistan

No I dont live in Pakistan. I have tons of family there...some of them have high ranking positions in the government and army.

I have relatives and friends from some of the other countries such as Afghanistan, India, Iraq/Iran, Saudia Arabia, Palestine, Lebanon and Syria.

posted August 28, 2006 04:37 PM            

Nevermind that she doesn't live there. Nevermind that she doesn't know all the different interpretations of Islam. For some reason she has anointed herself all knowing when it comes to Islam. Just like Mirandee is all knowing when it comes to what God wants and what Jesus thinks is funny.

LMAO.. what a freaking joke. I have been raised Lutheran my entire life, yet I would never go so far as to say that all Lutheran's believe in one way. We have various branches, various degrees of traditionalism and I am sure there are some wacknut Lutheran extremists that participate in bombing abortion clinics.

I would NEVER be so assnine as to state that I speak on behalf of all Lutherans let alone all Christians. But somehow DayDreamer was blessed to be the Islamic spokeswoman, representing all Muslims in the MidEast from her comfortable home in Canada.

LMAO... by the way, I haven't seen too many Islamic spokeswomen. I wonder by that is?

------------------
The democratic world believes that it is not the terrorists that are to blame, but us. Us, the westerners.
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the sooner you eliminate this misconception from your minds, the better.
We are NOT to blame. It is the freaking terrorists and the freaking terrorists only!!!! They are the bad guys. They do not understand concepts like peace, democracy, and respect for human life. They are, pure and simPle, EVIL!!!!! Behind all their political manipulations, if you carefully look at the actions of these MONSTERS, they are EVIL!!

http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000489.htm

posted August 28, 2006 04:49 PM            

Hmmm... could you be VL or are you the former Berry Sweet? I think you might be someone that was banned just a few weeks ago for your inflammatory statements if you are her, then you should well know what racism actually is, because it is YOU that is the picture of racism.

posted August 28, 2006 04:51 PM              

But I have been trying to present to you some general perspectives the majority of Muslims hold...things I hear from conversations with other Muslims of various nationalities, with my own ears...things I read from various Muslim countries, with my own eyes.

Im not trying to lie to you and tell you things that you probably want to hear.

posted August 28, 2006 04:54 PM            

You will continue to create usernames, but you are who you are and most of us see right through it. We can't be anything other than who we are, not for any length of time, and though you'll be back, you will inevitably betray your true nature and be banned again...and again....and again...

posted August 28, 2006 05:04 PM              

I even emailed Randall about this but he never replied back.

None of the moderators even said a word about the types of comments made.