posted December 18, 2006 09:57 PM            

The US is not deliberately targeting or attacking civilians. You problem is that you "classify" Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups as "civilians"...which they most certainly are NOT.

posted December 18, 2006 10:44 PM              

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IGNORANCE SEEN AS KEY PROBLEM

Several American Muslims interviewed on the subject of prejudice over the past few weeks said ignorance was at the core of the problem.

"The level of knowledge is very, very low,"

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Here are a few blasts from the past:

One from Jwhop: http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000693.html

posted December 18, 2006 11:52 PM            

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Yes the US deliberately targets other people's freedom fighters and to their people, civilians.

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Absurd. The only freedom fighters fighting in Iraq are in the Iraqi military and police forces. The terrorists you glamorize are fighting directly against the will of the majority of Iraqi citizens who voted for representative government in Iraq.

People engaged in warfare are not civilians..by definition. Just because they are too cowardly to put on a military uniform, man up, separate themselves from the civilian population and engage their enemy openly and directly doesn't make them civilians in any sense of the word.

posted December 19, 2006 12:08 AM              

There are different groups fighting for their recognition and security, groups that are targetted by coalition forces.

posted December 19, 2006 12:22 AM            

Strangely, those whom the Muslim terrorists are killing are also Muslims.

Your position is untenable and no amount of bombast can rescue you from your illogical positions.

posted December 19, 2006 12:32 AM              

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The reality is that US forces are fighting against those who are killing...deliberately killing Iraqi civilians.
Strangely, those whom the Muslim terrorists are killing are also Muslims.

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Why would there be Iraqis deliberately killing other Iraqis? Out of retaliation perhaps...ie. another group attacked them before. Dont try to paint US forces as the saviours that came to liberate the innocent Iraqi...because the US forces created the environment for this neverending blood bath so that Iraqis are now pitted against Iraqis.

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Your position is untenable and no amount of bombast can rescue you from your illogical positions.

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posted December 19, 2006 01:21 AM              

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Israel has mandatory military service for both men and women. All Israeli citizens are conscripted, except;

Haredim can apply for a deferral because of religious studies, which essentially becomes an exemption.
Israeli Arabs are exempt from service, although they may volunteer. Other non-Jewish communities such as the Druze, Bedouin, and Circassians do serve, except for women from those communities who are exempt.
Religious Jewish Israeli women can apply for an exemption from army service. Although some of them choose to serve, many opt to serve voluntarily in Sherut Leumi (national civilian service).
Young Israeli women can generally opt not to serve if they are married, pregnant, or otherwise
Candidates with certain mental or physical health problems.

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So does that make military attacks or .... suicide bombings on all Israeli citizens ok because they're not civilians and just parts of the military?

According to your logic it does.

posted December 19, 2006 01:28 AM            

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And I beg to differ on this point...they target native groups, particularly those that do not go along with the American agenda..

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Such as?

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Why would there be Iraqis deliberately killing other Iraqis?

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because thats wat people do...Shiites and Sunnis dont get along, despite how much people want them two they are still warring factions trying to gain control of a split and now weakened government. Thast why they would be killing each other...Plus who would be blamed but the Americans...

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JWhop, if anyone that participates in war or enrolls in the army is not considered a civilian, then all Israeli citizens would not really be so because theoretically 100% of Israeli citizens are conscripted.

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posted December 19, 2006 01:46 AM              

Alert Alert Alert Alert

There is a Muslim walking in the street
Run for your lives!!!

posted December 19, 2006 09:49 AM            

juniperb

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted December 19, 2006 01:24 PM              

Jwhop did not specify that one must have 'high tech gadgets' or weaponry to be a part of the army. He only specifies that if one is wearing a uniform or in the capacity to (be part of the army since they are listed as soldiers) than they are not civilians. If Hamas and Hezbollah are not civilians, then neither are all Israelis because by his definition they are all enlisted in the army. Having high tech gadgets does not make one a soldier versus a civilian. Otherwise the boys that did the Columbine shootings for instance would be ‘more soldierly’ than the students? It really doesn’t make sense. One is a soldier if they are enlisted in the army. If you are enlisted in the US army you are in uniform and are expected to be able to fight for the country any time you are called upon. That is what conscription is by definition. Israel’s conscription policy is one of the most stringent I have seen in the world; regardless of what the motivation is (loyalty or size of the country, afterall Israel has more weaponry than all the Arab Union combined, so whats the need of the massive armed forces?).

posted December 19, 2006 03:48 PM            

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what we would consider children or minors are also conscripted

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Sorry thats just incorrect...they sign them up at 16 and draft into training at 18. My friend is Israeli and his dad was in the army all his life. They certainlty do not draft children.

As for women despite being conscripted very few are actually "fighters". In fact they arent big on having women fight and women can request to be in the fighting zone other than that they will be doing minor tasks from radio to cooking etc. So they are FAR from being soldiers.

Hamas and Hezbollah all carry guns and rockets...you will be lucky to see a funeral/march in the Middle East especially Palestine without a bunch of people carrying Kalashnikovs...sorry but there is a big, big difference between being and Israeli citizen who got basic training and walking around with a giant machine gun since age 5.

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Having high tech gadgets does not make one a soldier versus a civilian. Otherwise the boys that did the Columbine shootings for instance would be ‘more soldierly’ than the students?

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Thats just fallacy...while they are more "soldierly" than the rest of the students, they were breaking the law because it is illegal to carry guns especially into a school...if they were to point those guns at the cops (who are a type of "military" more than an average person) they would get shot...if the Palestinians were ALLLLLL completely unarmed and Israelis continued shooting them, then everyone can say something bad...until then they are acting the way police would if someone was pointing a gun at them.

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One is a soldier if they are enlisted in the army.

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Not every country has an army...some have rebel forces and some have militias who are more soldiers than an avg Israeli citizen...combat experience makes one a soldier more than basic training. Come on its like an extra gym class...they teach them how to shoot and just the basics...They arent a well prepared disciplined soldier until they are called to combat. And even after if they are unarmed and in "civilian" clothes with no intention of killing anyone then clearly an attack on them would be terrorist...and please dont bring up guerrilas in civilian clothing...thats a fighting strategy...that SPECIFICALLY counts on people not to shoot civilians...on the one hand its a wonderful tactic, on the other hand thats exactly how civilians get killed in the first place...everyone is an enemy at that point...

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Israel’s conscription policy is one of the most stringent I have seen in the world; regardless of what the motivation is (loyalty or size of the country, afterall Israel has more weaponry than all the Arab Union combined, so whats the need of the massive armed forces?).

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Now dont take this pic offensively I found it accidently but it proves my point...

This is why Israel needs a massive armed force...

posted December 19, 2006 04:59 PM              

Its like Japan vs America in WWII, even if Japan was humongous and had ten times as many people, well they were deballed after the bomb werent they ? When you have tanks and bombs like Israel you dont NEED people you only need like ten people who know how to use those bombs and tada you are set for life.

Will be back later.

posted December 19, 2006 05:06 PM              

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Yawn. Things arent as black and white as you like to picture the bloody world.
There are different groups fighting for their recognition and security, groups that are targetted by coalition forces.

Im not glamourizing anything...Im just stating a reality you dont want to see.

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Really gorgeous point, Day dreamer.

(gorgeous meaning, not in a physical since, but extremely knowledgable, meaningful, where it exhibits beauty in a nonchalant way)

posted December 19, 2006 05:15 PM              

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I know but that isnt the point...my point was you cannot consider someone a soldier just because they passed basic training. If they arent combatants and arent ARMED most importantly then they are civilians.

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That is the point. What you call 'basic training' isnt going to the gym class as you point out (roll eyes). What a lot of people think Taliban Hamas and Hezbollah do is like that too. Learning how to fight int he desert, effectively hiding and shooting and all kinds of other 'neat' survival and attack exercises are taught. How to use weaponry is taught. In Israel it is institutionalized, in Hamas and Hezbollah it is just 'wisdom of the elder combatants' being passed down. While some of the 'masterminds' are trained by government intelligence some are ex soldiers in other countries and most are just youth who get involved and are trained by the above. Not really much difference.

The point once again being even if women do not fight they are part of the army. That then goes against Israels logic that civilian shields can be attacked. If its just women that are 'helping out' the soldiers and supporting their operations, then why are you killing them? And if so, why can't your women who are trained in both defense and attack mechanisms be killed? The logic seems kind of hypocritical.

Walking around with a gun is different. Hamas and Hezbollah have guns and rockets like you said. They dont have tanks like the Israel guards have that roll in every other day. And besides Hamas and Hezbollah do not together equal all of Palestine and Lebanon. Lets put this in perspective. Once again Israel likes to think that all civilians are at least somehow involved or otherwise deserve the attacks because they harbor 'sympathy' for these people. Well if being trained yet not fighting doesnt make you a soldier and thus a target how can being a SYMPATHIZER and not even a trained one justify being a target?? I dont get the logic. And the guns are also a mode of celebration not warfare. Refer to the incident the past few years where US aircraft bombed an Afghani wedding because they thought they were firing at the aircraft but they were in fact celebrating. Whatever people may think, firing rounds in the air is like the arab version of fireworks. Fireworks are also scary and yes they can injure people. Firing klashnikovs can do so too. And Klashnikovs are not the same thing as the immense amount of weaponry and tanks that Israelis have. The Klashnikovs can easily be run over and homes destroyed by them which is what happens 99% of the time. The only reason the recent Lebanon case was diff was becoz that was like Israel and Iran backed Hezbollah, almost like US and Iran getting at each others throats indirectly. Two states resources rather than a state versus a combatant group which is exactly what Israel vs Hamas or Hezbollah is.

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Thats just fallacy...while they are more "soldierly" than the rest of the students, they were breaking the law because it is illegal to carry guns especially into a school...if they were to point those guns at the cops (who are a type of "military" more than an average person) they would get shot...if the Palestinians were ALLLLLL completely unarmed and Israelis continued shooting them, then everyone can say something bad...until then they are acting the way police would if someone was pointing a gun at them.

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Its not a fallacy because suppose the shooting even happened outdoors. My poitn is that because someone is armed doesnt make them more dangerous. That is what the NRA is abt for example. If you are ENLISTED in the army you h ave INTENT to fight. If you are armed, you are prepared to fight. There is a difference. OK even if we look at number of enlisted and armed Israelis its much more than enlisted in Hamas/Hezbollah and equitably armed Palestinians. And why do ALL the palestinians have to be unarmed for Israel to be at fault? Doesnt the fact that ISraels weapon number and power outdo the Pali by a laughable amount make it clear enough that when Israel engages in full blown attack against 'klashnikovs' merely, that its responding commpletley out of proportion? And tahts Israels response every single time--way way way way way out of proportion. For two or three people or a round of klashnikov bullets they will mercilessly run over or bomb hundreds of people. funny that you assume Israel is like the police which has a vested interest in the security of all while Palis are like criminals challenging police officers. You are talking witht he assumption that Israel is positive and Pali negative.

Yes combat experience makes you a more experienced soldier but the training and the weaponry make you a soldier--someone willing and able to fight and kill. And the preparation tops it off. Having arms is nothing until you are trained how to use them. Even if Palis have basic arms so what they are not trained witht he precision of the Israelis, they do not have the political and weaponry clout. They are literally nothing. Its a joke the ISraeli govt knows that. The whole making a huge deal out of a few people, then going and killing scores and scores, is a propoganda tactic.

posted December 19, 2006 06:04 PM            

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What a lot of people think Taliban Hamas and Hezbollah do is like that too. Learning how to fight int he desert, effectively hiding and shooting and all kinds of other 'neat' survival and attack exercises are taught

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Yet UNLIKE Israeli citizens they carry guns...

Perhaps technology does have an advantage but you asked whgy do they build up and i showed you why. High tech weapons only go so far when its in your own back yard.

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Walking around with a gun is different. Hamas and Hezbollah have guns and rockets like you said. They dont have tanks like the Israel guards have that roll in every other day.

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The issue is attacking civilians.....EVERY ISRAELI doesnt OWN A TANK...nor does every Israeli killed while riding on a bus posses any means of defending themselves...this is a fallacy to argue like that...Arguing that there are no civilian deaths in Israel is just empty and closed minded. Seriously...im not saying Israel didnt kill any civilians but thats mostly because the guerrilas use the people to their advantage.

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And besides Hamas and Hezbollah do not together equal all of Palestine and Lebanon.

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When did I say they do...i just said ur argument that there are no civilians in Israel because everyone is drafted is absurd...

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Refer to the incident the past few years where US aircraft bombed an Afghani wedding because they thought they were firing at the aircraft but they were in fact celebrating.

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This has nothing to do with my argument...no where did i condone it...though one may kinda appreciate the fact that people should be a LITTLE bit smarter and realise hey if ur firing a gun in war times you gotta be very careful...

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Fireworks are also scary and yes they can injure people. Firing klashnikovs can do so too.

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Sorry guns and fireworks not the same....
And using either during a time of war is brainless unless ur attacking someone...

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My poitn is that because someone is armed doesnt make them more dangerous.

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Yes it kind of does...especially if they are actually using it againt you...its a state of war in Palestine thus weapons use is obviously expected and thus soldiers fight back...that by no means is an exuse for suicide bombing...entering a bus full of people and blowing oneself up is certainly NOT the same as being trained in an army...

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Yes combat experience makes you a more experienced soldier but the training and the weaponry make you a soldier--someone willing and able to fight and kill.

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There u go...u just made my point...weaponrly and a will to kill make u a soldier...end of story...

posted December 20, 2006 12:38 AM              

Who's targetted? Well the Sunni minority and Shias groups in Iraq that are not pro-coalition. The Pashtuns who make up the majority ethnic group of Afghanistan.

People dont deliberatly kill other people because "that's what people do." And the mere fact there is a Sunni Shia difference does not mean they will kill each other over it.

posted December 20, 2006 12:45 AM              

I figured you learned that quote was not accurate and that it was totally fabricated.

posted December 20, 2006 01:29 AM            

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People dont deliberatly kill other people because "that's what people do." And the mere fact there is a Sunni Shia difference does not mean they will kill each other over it.

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Ur kidding right? Actually i advise you to read letters send bu Sultan Selim the I to the Shah of Iran at the time (sorry forgot his name)...it was in 1490s...it will clarify things a whole lot...yes ppl do kill each other over the Sunni Shia difference and have been doing so since the days of the Prophet himself...need I remind you that Ali was assasinated as were a few of the Rashidun (guided caliphs) and should I also bring up their descendants...many of them were murdered over rulership issues (thats where Shiia and Sunni divide). So please reconsider your statement...

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Were they killing each other like they are now before the Americans invaded?

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America and Bush created the environment for different factions to kill each other.

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posted December 20, 2006 01:33 AM              

Right Saddam's oppression is what kept Shias and Sunnis from killing each others. You just keep repeating that to yourself.

posted December 20, 2006 02:02 AM            

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You have a skewed vision of Shias and Sunnis. Why werent the Shias and Sunnis killing each other in such large numbers before the American invasion??

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*clears throat* they were....they were...just not during Saddam's reign...before and after...like i said look into history...skewed version...i actually take that to offense...i would like to think that i learned something in those 3 classes that ive taken on the subject...seriously look into it before u decide...not into media not into articles like i said Sultan Selim I to Shah of Iran...

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Right Saddam's oppression is what kept Shias and Sunnis from killing each others. You just keep repeating that to yourself

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Must be nice living in an illusion...ever hear of Stalin? No one was killing each other during his reign? why? Cuz hed shoot everyone...and Tito...and Mao...and Saddam....

He gassed the Kurds hed gass the Shiites too...

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You're in denial. America just created the environment that has lead Iraq into a civila war. Try reading a newspaper...that might help clarify things.

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posted December 20, 2006 02:17 AM              

Im actually a living and breathing Muslim and I do know about my history and didnt waste my money on something I already learned before.

You still fail to see the entire picture. This is not a war of Shia versus Sunni Muslims. Different Shia groups are killing each other too.

This is war is based on politics and affiliation....and who gets what at the end of the day.

You make a gross and misleading overstatement by suggesting that Saddams oppression is what kept the Shias and Sunnis from kiling each other. How do you know whether or not that would be the case if another leader was running the country?

This also suggests you believe Shias and Sunnis INHERENTLY want to kill each other. Which is complete and utter Bull Sh1t.

Once America invaded, the war started and people took sides, and people began to generalize/stereotype groups hell began to break loose...one attack led to another...it escalated to full blown violence.