posted January 17, 2008 08:26 PM            

praecipua starts a nasty, no wait, "sharing negative opinions" thread targetting a member and those who take issue with the thread find "usefulness" by responding with their distaste. Of course, if no one had replied, this thread would've been bumped up in the future when another of these threads emerged (to the same reaction, naturally) with "well, you didn't care when it was that jwhop thread".

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AG, just because you believe that someone is a bad person for doing a bad thing doesn't mean we all think that way. You've made your point clear about how you judge but that doesn't make it true for all of us. Maybe you don't see the distinction between saying, "he did something bad" and "he is a bad person" but the rest of us are just trying to say we do see a difference. No one is saying we didn't know you had problems with jwhop. But I really was shocked to hear you suggest that you actually feel that he (and any unknown others at this point) was a bad person. And do you know why that is? Maybe this is why:

quote:

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I don't hate Jwhop, either. He's a decent man, a provider for his family I'm certain. He's a born leader. He's dynamic. He's bold. He's a Patriot.

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Happy Birthday Jwhop

Please forgive me for having believed that when you called Jwhop a decent person that you didn't really mean that he was a bad person. Obviously that was my mistake. And, yes, I'm being sarcastic. Look, I don't care what you actually think about jwhop. But in that birthday thread, you made a convincing argument that although you disagreed with jwhop and didn't approve of the way he writes here, that you generally thought well of him as a person. And, hey, maybe some of us believed you. It also isn't as though you've stated here that you changed your mind and now think he's a bad person. No, you're acting as if it's a foreign concept to distinguish between actions and the individuals doing them, that we should've all known that you really thought jwhop was a bad person and that it must be okay because we're all just judgemental people at heart. Well, we're not. And we're not generally mind-readers, either. Some of us actually prefer to trust people to represent themselves and their ideas and their feelings honestly, especially in a community like this.

*added*

And just for giggles, rereading that thread, I came across a comment I made:

"It isn't as though we all don't know how you feel about him already, is it?"

Before that gets twisted, here's what followed:

"Anyway ... I'll believe AG when he says he still likes jwhop despite the things he finds disagreeable about jwhop. I think it's important to realize how many of us may be liked by others despite ourselves at times. Better to be loved with your "flaws" intact than be expected to change for someone else or to be hated because of those "flaws" ... tolerance and all which, I'm finding, seems to be much less practiced than preached. And it's all subjective in the end, anyway. A flaw to me may be a virtue to you and vice versa."

posted January 17, 2008 08:51 PM              

at least, savage people like AG or me are blunt about it...

i love that, when people preach something but do something else.

if i say that, it's not to hold a grudge against you later. fear not. i won't bring up something that you said in the past (like you do). but i think that right now you should see were you stand. it's far from what you preach.

posted January 17, 2008 09:03 PM            

Should have known better what I should be dealing with in these forums

posted January 17, 2008 09:05 PM            

And, actually, to be frank, neither you nor AG are blunt about anything it appears. You start a nasty thread about a member but don't cop to it being nasty or targetted. AG suggests there are bad people here rather than saying it outright. If anyone here is truly blunt, it would be jwhop. You know, blunt as in "abrupt and often disconcertingly frank in speech". Which seems to be the whole problem you had with jwhop in the beginning. He was just too blunt so you had to speak out. Now, really, you're the blunt one and that's a good thing.

posted January 17, 2008 09:13 PM            

what's the matter with you? you've gone extremely defensive all of a sudden. perhaps there is nothing left to say?

Good. Then say nothing.

posted January 17, 2008 09:43 PM              

and jwhop defenders won't make me believe they have the monopoly of trusting members of THE community. i do that very well. but as opposed to jwhop, i haven't participated enough to this site for some to realise. but that doesn't prevent them from casting judgments.

regarding my bluntness, or my lack of it according to saint eleanore, i thought it was exactly the problem. indeed, did it not start because of the "blunt" title of this thread? does the sentence:
" will jwhop ever shut up?" is not blunt enough for you? you must recognize that i've been "blunt" enough to use it as a title. so what's your point again?

and if i'm that blunt, it's not a trait that i use regularly, but it's one i keep at hand to equal other people bluntness such as jwhop's. and i like it that way.

i totally agree however when you say that a saint would have kept away from this thread. and as a matter of fact, in the very first post, i say i'm no jesus nor buddha. eleanore, you're spot on.

finally, let's go to 200 if it's what makes you happy.(BUT HERE WE GO AROUND IN CIRCLE)

posted January 17, 2008 09:46 PM              

quote:

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I didn't hear dog. I heard exactly what you said, but my Uranus is connected with my Mercury opposite Saturn as well, so while my Saturn always wishes to bring every notion under scrutiny, Uranus has to be a pain in the @ss about it...hence "dog" and the word that is most often used to describe dogs.

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I'm sorry. Say again?

And what's with all the astrological references? A litany of excuses? An attempt to help us understand your issues? An attempt to help you understand your issues? A calling card? I have my moon in sag. Does that make me irrationaly affectionate of silly slobering puppies? That would certainly explain a lot.

posted January 17, 2008 09:48 PM            

I don't want to do a whole Fayte-like montage of what we've both said, so I'll see if I can pare it down.

It started with my statement that Jwhop's been chastised by the good people here going back at least three years.

Then you decided that if there were good people, then there had to be bad people.

I then gave you one of the names of people who have chastised Jwhop, illustrating for you what I meant by "good" people.

You then decided that I hadn't answered your question, which I had [and later clarified, which you seemed to have missed]. You can read along, I'm on Page 2.

I then explained why Jwhop receives thread devoted to him like this, and showed another example of such a thread. And then I clarified for your sake that there is indeed "good," "bad," and "all kinds of shades in between," and I indicated that some people are bad in one area, and good in another.

That's what I've said. No where in MY words will you find me stating that I believe Jwhop is a bad person. I did say that you can take an implication the same as taking something said outright, but I didn't realize that you would take that as me saying, "Jwhop is a bad person." In my post following that, which I think you must have missed, I stated what my original intent was by using that particular wording:

posted January 17, 2008 09:51 PM              

hmmm

posted January 17, 2008 10:05 PM              

sheep is not bad though.

despite everything said here with you eleanore, i must say i understand your views and i take them on board.

but this is my advice: why do you think God left us experiment sorrow, fear, and pain... it can't be because he doesn't love us, if he's God as we think it (in a traditional sense- we can develop in another thread). so why?
do you think he could be hard for our own good? and why parents prevent their children to play with fire or near a road? because they love them, isn'it.
i love many people. in my chart, i've got venus at 28 degrees pisces, sun aquarius, moon in 29 libra, just for a start. so ultimately, i'm open to everyone. but please, don't pretend that love equals weakness to stand your own ground. people like jwhop like only those who like them. and that's fine by me ( probably my libra moon). but when you won't love them, they'll treat you with spite. so why on earth, even if you are a loving person, would you tolerate that. the only duty that you have is to love yourself in the best possible way. and then everything will follow. indeed, because you love yourself you naturally love the other one.
i'm not there yet but i'm working on it.

think about it.

and from my side, you can rest assured i won't hold grudges against you. as i said, i see were you are coming from. but as i also said, i'm a stubborn cow!!!

posted January 17, 2008 10:21 PM            

Of the people arguing on Jwhop's behalf on this thread, how many of them have acknowledged the bad behavior Jwhop displays in GU? Almost all of them.

So if all of these people have been witness to [and acknowledged] what people have complained about for 3+ years with regard to Jwhop and still speak up in his defense, then it's quite easy to see how one can disapprove of someone whilst still being ok with them. There is no actual inconsistency with regard to my thoughts and feelings about Jwhop, and what I've posted on this board.

posted January 18, 2008 06:36 AM            

My landlord is a German Veterinary Technician and dog trainer. In this country they go to school longer than our vet techs and to be a trainer they are schooled in animal behaviour.

She has successfully trained hard cases, one is a German Shepherd that was abandoned and had almost no discipline. He is now a wonderful working dog (took almost 1 year to get him that way).

She has another dog that she adopted at 7 months of age. The dog is a lost cause despite her best efforts and she even enlisted a top German trainer and an animal behaviorist has well.

Puppies are NOT loyal, they go to where the food and attention is. Once they realise who the leader of the pack is, they start to learn what loyality means.

I know this was just one comment made but I wanted to clarify about canines as a whole.

P-Leo Minor- I think you are quite amusing in that you open a negative thread, tell people not to post, then encourage them to post to prove that we are all somehow less that you.

AG.. I do believe you play word games. It is part of your personality which is charming and infuriating at the same time. It comes across as almost sport to you to argue the true intent of the person, at the same time it appears to be similar to a verbal obstacle course. The only problem that I see is that when the person explains their intent, you still won't accept it so you pick apart their explanations.

To each their own. Some find it to be frustrating while others find it refreshing.

posted January 18, 2008 07:20 AM              

"you can also start an anti-paecipua thread. i'll give you some hints:

i'm often very arrogant,
i like to have the last word when i'm convinced of something,
i can be intolerant of other people's view (ex with jwhop here)
what else? i don't show respect to elders just because they're elders (god is an exception obviously),
ah, here you can see a bit of opportunism as well..."

and i'm sure you will enlighten me on other aspects of my personnality...
so interested? at least it will keep you busy cause it must be difficult and boring to live in country you probably don't speak the language.

posted January 18, 2008 08:36 AM            

No, we are not intimate nor would we ever be. Your like or dislike for me is of no value as you are entitled to your own feelings and opinions.

Like I said earlier, you are amusing to me. That is just my opinion.

BTW.. your comment about me being bored living in a country where I may not speak the language.... Did you not see what I wrote earlier? I LOVE it here. I have made German friends and I have become very good friends with my German landlord. She speaks pretty good English and is teaching me German. I shop on the economy and know enough so far to make conversation and say the appropriate words when buying my German groceries.

My DH speaks passable German and Italian as he has lived here for more than 2 years and spent 3 1/2 years in Italy.

Life is what you make of it P. You should know that as I have noticed you speak English. I would never say to you that you must be bored in a foreign country unless you were so obtuse that you would not learn the customs and at least conversation language skills.

Maybe that is the difference between people like me and people like you. I immerse myself in a culture and thrive on learning. I also keep an open mind and realize that I am an American with customs that may not be acceptable to my host country. For example, here it is okay to stare at someone without saying "Hi, how are you?". They do not make small talk but when they become friends they take friendship seriously.

It doesn't bother me when people here stare at me. I look different. They are not used to seeing a real live American Indian mix on their soil. I don't take offense because it is flattering and unusual to them.

I can't speak totally for Eleanore, but I know she is also living in a foreign country. I can bet she studied the customs and has already started language classes or is picking it up.

Again, that is the beauty of having an open mind AND being married to the Military. We have opportunities most people don't get.

posted January 18, 2008 10:24 AM            

quote:

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Anyway, I did ask you a direct question because I was hoping for a direct answer. From your response, however, I can only surmise that you do feel there are "good" people here ... and combined with your earlier comment thus also "bad" people here unless we'll go so far as to suggest that all the others are somehow "neutral".

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AG

quote:

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Yes, indeed you can surmise the above from what I've said. There are all kinds of shades in between, however.

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Me

quote:

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Maybe I was shocked to see you refer to "good people" here because of the possible (and now certain) implication it carried.

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quote:

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Eleanore spoke of my implicating something, but it is something I've implicated a thousand times before.

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So, AG, you were saying that you agreed that there are “good people” and “bad people” here and then saying that there are also various shades of good and bad. But the idea that one of those “bad people” is jwhop is incorrect? Maybe you’re having trouble with the inclusiveness of the whole “bad people” thing. That is, the chosen wording. I did ask you a direct question and really was expecting a direct answer. I don’t understand why that was too much to ask. You see, the need for any inferences would have not existed if you had just been, well, direct. Perhaps I was making “illogical” inferences and/or perhaps you were making “illogical” implications. Convoluted, at the very least.

And here’s another couple of direct questions, just to clear things up, please and if you would be so kind as to respond directly. If there are good people here, ala the estimable 26t , are they wholly good in your eyes? Were you trying to say that there were people here who are “mostly” good. Mostly is an important word there, you see. Going with the whole shades idea. And if so, are there no wholly bad people here in your eyes?

But since you did bring up illogical inferences, I have to wonder exactly how you went from my have contentions with a thread targeting a member to me “defending jwhop”. See, logically to me would be acknowledging a defense of past precedence regarding threads such as this. And whether or not you choose to believe me, I would speak out against a thread initiated for the singular purpose of targeting you or any other member here.

posted January 18, 2008 10:30 AM            

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Praecipua
I’m glad you won’t hold grudges especially seeing as how I haven’t commented on you as a person at all. And if you were the kind of person that held grudges against people who criticized any of your actions then, well, let’s just say it’s good all around that you’re not that kind of person. As for me, I don’t hold grudges even when people take things against me personally. And, no, there isn’t some superficial sense of honor or morality here. It is merely that grudges are fruitless. Actually, that isn’t correct. Grudges do bear fruit but that fruit is much too bitter for my liking. That’s one reason why I don’t understand how some people function in this world when they take everything so personally and face their lives with a “me against you” attitude. As for God, that’s really a whole other issue. Suffice it to say that one of the only things I really believe God/dess ever let us “do” was to simply “be”. Mostly, all the rest is up to us. In my opinion, naturally.

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Heya, pidaua. Actually, I’ve been attempting to learn or at least improve my Japanese for about a year now. I can understand most of basic conversations and can make some simple conversation, too, though I’m painfully shy due to the phonetic importance in their language. If you pronounce it wrong, often even slightly, there’s almost no chance you’ll be understood. I recall one particularly embarassing moment when I referred to Udon noodles as ooh-DAWN instead of OOH-dohn and thereby offended our dinner companions and the proprietor with my ignorance of their foods and my insensitive ears.

posted January 18, 2008 10:49 AM            

quote:

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AG.. I do believe you play word games. It is part of your personality which is charming and infuriating at the same time. It comes across as almost sport to you to argue the true intent of the person, at the same time it appears to be similar to a verbal obstacle course. The only problem that I see is that when the person explains their intent, you still won't accept it so you pick apart their explanations.

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I can accept that. I do often wish people would say exactly what they mean [ironic from a person who always gets accused of not being straight forward], and it does seem easy to me to call into question what their intent is.

My hope for anyone arguing with me is that they do stick to their point and argue it to completion. Perhaps I thwart my own hopes by making it difficult to pass the tests that I throw at them, but the way I look at it is that if the other person truly has a point then it shouldn't be difficult to get past my obstructions. I do thoroughly test propositions I don't believe to be correct.

In reverse, people also try throwing roadblocks my way. A lot of them are obvious, and most of them contain errors of logic because the person hasn't truly thought out what they're saying. I don't know what to do about that other than point it out.

posted January 18, 2008 11:41 AM            

That would be a great idea. I had a similar experience. I asked my landlord how to say;

"Excuse me" or "I'm sorry" when you bump into someone on accident.

The way to say it is; Entschuldigen Sie

I pronounced it correctly and she said "Entschuldigen Sie, genau"

I looked at her and said "Oh so it is; Entschuldigen Sie, genau"..

She giggled and said 'No, pidaua now you said 'excuse me, that is correct'.

Sometimes German runs together. It's great. Here in Bavaria their dialect is a bit different as it is related to the Franco period. They roll their "R's" like we do in Spanish so it's a bit easier for me. Bear has a hard time because he is not totally able to roll those R's.

Also, I found that when a German feel comfortable with you, they will give you bear hugs anytime. We had that happen with a restaurant owner that decided he liked my smile (and my rear end) it was pretty entertaining to Bear and our friends. He couldn't stop coming up to me and giving me this huge hugs and then he patted me on my butt.

I also found as you have that the sentiment here is not against American's but against our perceived policies. I find I am questioned more about what the media means instead of an all out hatred for the US. I have also learned so much about the German politics and how they refer to their various parties.

The best yet... BioGeek is universal. LOL... Christine has a similar background to me so we can discuss various diseases, treatments and vet issues with an easier understanding as so many of the terms are similar.

I think a thread on different cultural experiences would be great. I know Bear would love to comment on his experiences in Wackernheim vs Schweinfurt and also about his time in Italy.