posted February 24, 2009 01:51 PM            

mannu i respect you for the fact that though your opinions often differ from mine you do NOT lower yourself to calling people names or assaulting their characters. you argue like - a mature intelligent human being!!

oops seems my post crossed wires with evidence to the contrary.

posted February 24, 2009 01:56 PM            

quote:

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The liberals have to keep the conservatives straight and the conservatives the liberal.

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posted February 24, 2009 02:09 PM            

Were I to have actually done this, I'm sure there would have been outrage from those who wouldn't understand the point I was making, but describing it without actually doing it allows one to see through Jwhop's argument.

posted February 24, 2009 03:14 PM            

I am a Patriot to the core. I love my country and would die defending it. People like vdi should NEVER be allowed citizenship in this country. And mannu, you should never assume you know my political stance, I am probably more a republican than you are yet I will not claim that I am either Dem or Repub.

posted February 24, 2009 05:54 PM            

I don't listen to Savage and only read part of one of his books...back in the 1990's...."Compassionate Conservative Speaks". I started reading the book because George H.W. Bush had cast himself as a "Compassionate Conservative". I listened to one radio broadcast 3-4 years ago and didn't find anything new there...plus, he was calling leftists "Liberals", which they are not. You seem to think what I say here comes from Savage but before Savage burst on the scene to rub leftist noses in mud puddles, I was already busily about the job.

Perhaps Savage reads what I've said here or lurked at Conscious Evolution when I posted there. FYI, I've also been accused of being Rush Limbaugh...oh, and also Randall.

I posted a reference to Red Diaper Doper Babies on another thread here...with someone making the assumption that since Savage has used the term, I must be an ardent listener of Savage.

FYI, Red Diaper Doper Babies is a term from the 1960's..or before..which denote the children of so called intellectual leftist(Red) pot smoking(Dopers) elitists in academia...who were likely to turn out just like their parents..leftist pot smoking dopers. Nothing new there to have picked up from Michael Savage.

Another problem for those attempting to tie me to Savage is that long before Savage wrote his book.."Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"..about 2005-2007?, I was already pointing that fact out right here. Later, an eminent psychiatrist confirmed the fact that leftists are narcissistic juvenile personalities stuck in a pre-teen state of arrested development..a mental disorder.

Now, I'm glad you listen to Savage Got G. It gives you something to do for a few hours and keeps you off the street.

Oh, one last thing Got G. NeoCons are New Conservatives who used to be liberals, leftists or something else. Neo..New...Con..Conservative. Got it? I've always been a Conservative.

posted February 24, 2009 06:57 PM            

and excuse me for lumping you in with that hypocrite savage if i was wrong. you do bear a strange resemblance in your terms and attack mode! of course the very same sort of words and ideas can also be heard from hannity, limbaugh and co. though once again i am not particularly well informed because after a short time of listening to them out of curiosity and boredom, i realized i had been suffering from headaches and switched them off. shrill hateful voices gone AND no more headaches!

mary poppins was cleverer with her spoonful of sugar. i marvel that an intelligent man like yourself would spend so much time in unconstructive negativity rather than trying to do something about the situation.

posted February 24, 2009 10:45 PM              

And this is what i get for saying that the cartoons were racist but Racism cannot hurt unless a race or community allows it too.tchtch...how cruel of me.Free Will is an exercise oppressive for the minority eh.

Like me for instance, do i not attract stereotypes or jokes on my race ?

Sure i do - but i choose to treat it like the stupidity that it is rather than scream " Victim "

Talking about Racism and how stupid it is heres a sample

quote:

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This way you can worship that snake you found in your window and spew all the hate you want from your homeland.

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ROFL - you are assuming i am a hindu.I am a JAIN. We dont worship anything you Jesse Wannabe.

As for spewing hate ?

ever heard Obama's preacher express his love for your homeland ?

Why not ask immigration to deport HIM back to where his primate ancestors came from eh ?

Now that is not racist .

Because we are all evolved from primates.

more racial stupidity..

quote:

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. Lord knows we absolutely DO NOT need any more people like you in this country as we have enough here already that must be dealt with.

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ahh...right. You aldready have enough white,black and all other colors of welfare dependents for the taxpayers to deal with and get a meltdown in return - so you dont need no more prospective wealth creating taxpayers.

Makes perfect sense.

Which is perfect Nonsense.

To a donkey.

posted February 24, 2009 11:11 PM            

Tell them to stop stealing my concepts. I don't need any help determining what's wrong with leftist social/economic and political theory.

If you can find a post where I ever said I was..at one time a liberal or leftist, please post it here.

Perhaps you're confused and believe only Republicans can be Conservatives. Not true. Kennedy, Democrat, was a strong fiscal conservative. The current crop of leftist morons would have made Kennedy throw up. A very large portion of Independents are Conservatives and former Democrats. We call Democrat Conservatives...Reagan Democrats

posted February 24, 2009 11:41 PM            

quote:

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I think maybe you should research a little more whether black people enjoy the slightest implication that they're monkeys before you start thinking you have a damper for these claims. Maybe YouTube could help you with that.

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What are you on about? I don't follow your meaning.

quote:

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Make that "Not all monkeys are a reference to black people and not all cartoonists who draw a police-gunned-down, dead monkey as a metaphor for the U.S. Congress are racists."

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Yes, let's make it that. The sentence still rings true, so what's your point?

It's interesting that you chose to paste Daryl Cagle's article. Other than his ridiculous suggestion, the article is quite valid.

"Combining two unrelated things in a cartoon is funny. Monkeys are funny and the killer chimp was the big news one day along with the stimulus bill. Delonas is a staunch conservative who didn’t like the stimulus bill; this cartoon is a formulaic “no-brainer.” I’m sure the reaction to the cartoon was a surprise to Delonas."

Cagle doesn't think the article is racist. He just feels we should limit free speech to keep us from offending each other. Brilliant...

quote:

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Sure, we're all human. We all make the occasional communicational blunder. Editors normally catch such blunders. If the New York Post could find a good one, this cartoon would have been redone with the same general idea, but in a different way, perhaps not incorporating a gunned-down, wild, mauling chimp.

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The cartoon was not a communicational blunder. You blame the NY Post's editor for not seeing that this cartoon would be misinterpreted as "racist". I blame those ppl that are misinterpreting it.
You say "toe-may-toe", I say "toe-mah-toe"?
Not quite.
There's a big difference here.
You say the cartoon could've been "redone with the same general idea...perhaps not incorporating a gunned-down, wild, mauling chimp", but this isn't necessary if the cartoon isn't racist. If it's not racist, then it's not a problem. It's only a problem if it is misinterpreted as racist. But that's a problem for the person misinterpreting. Not the editor.

posted February 25, 2009 12:40 AM            

quote:

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The sentence still rings true, so what's your point?

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Once again I'm surprised you can't discern my point. My point is that if you interpret it strictly in the manner yourself and Jwhop have provided, we're still looking at a cartoon that suggests the writer(s) of the stimulus bill should be shot dead by the police for the violence they're inflicting on the people. You guys want to dumb it down to a simple comparison of a monkey to a stimulus bill writer, but that's not what's depicted in the cartoon, is it? Two men dragging out a live monkey who appears to have been writing on some paper would have conveyed the meaning more appropriately. Understand? That means that if it's racist or if it's not, it's still quite frankly offensive, and ill thought out.

quote:

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He just feels we should limit free speech to keep us from offending each other. Brilliant...

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You scoff, and yet you undoubtedly practice what you're scoffing at.

quote:

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If it's not racist, then it's not a problem. It's only a problem if it is misinterpreted as racist.

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Wrong for the reason I mentioned above.

quote:

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When something of a creative nature is being made, a mature creator doesn't think about how their creation will be received. That's not a "communicational blunder". It's proper term is "genius".

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posted February 25, 2009 02:05 AM              

I mean really ?

No one stops any one on grounds of race from making sound decisions in life so they don't end up on welfare.

No one stops anyone on grounds of race from being a criminal instead of working off one's ass in high school and maybe paying their own way to college .

In todays age i dont see anyone losing out on any opportunity on grounds of race.

I DO however see the black co - worker in my office get ignored by his family back in the south for not being ghetto enough.

I DO see people crying out loud about Racism as if that was somehow responsible everything thats messed up in their lives and in this world.

Some people like you, Some people dont, Some people think you're different.

So WHAT ?

Does that make it hard to go through life not making a mess of it ?

quote:

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I'm just sick and tired of people like vdi who know nothing about the experience of living in the US who completely trash this country.

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And how do YOU know i have no experience of living in California to know what i am talking about ?

Been channeling my brain waves now ?

And have you been keeping count of WHAT i trash ?

Does it involve EVERYTHING that exists in the U.S. ?

I have never trashed the excellent Law and Order , the Discipline that i see around me, the free markets that encourage entrepreneurs...i can go on about the things that make the U.S. a beacon and fill a whole thread .

But you think trashing a few things that i FEEL are trash and YOU dont, equals trashing America ?

Whoever died and made you moral Authority ?

quote:

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What she is trying to do is fit in, in an attempt to be accepted by people that will NEVER consider her their equal.

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What makes you think i friggin CARE ?

I dont care a rats ass what racist beliefs are harboured around me.I am here to make a better life for myself.Period

I have made excellent friends , both indian and white . I am going to let them know what you said and ask them why they initiated friendships with me if they dont think i am an EQUAL ?

quote:

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I am a Patriot to the core. I love my country and would die defending it.

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Who said that gives YOU the MORAL right to abuse anyone else with views different from your own.

If its a fellow citizen call him vile names and use every stereptype that exists.

If not, threaten them with deportation.

Grow up Bro, this aint no highschool so stop dissin me.

quote:

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People like vdi should NEVER be allowed citizenship in this country.

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Yeah too bad though .You dont have THAT Authority.

Not only are people like me. viz indians who think trash of what IS trash - citizens in your country - they are THE wealthiest citizens in America - said the last study.Top of line professionals and business magnates who are feeding the lazy ass good for nothing welfare crowd.

So know your place and stay there.

too bad what YOU think is not what your government thinks. Its never been easier to get visas ever since this meltdown started.

And for the record, YES you ARE Xenophobic.

And NO you are not Conservative - though you can call yourself Republican.

posted February 25, 2009 02:51 AM            

Obama didn't write the bill. Chimps are recently newsworthy thanks to that irresponsible woman and her "pet" chimp attack; notably a gunned down chimp. The cartoon references a hypothetical FUTURE spending bill.

Ie, let us "kill" the chimp, any chimp, so that he is not, in the future, to be found among the group of people responsible for writing such another bill.

Ie, the fools who wrote this bill could each be seen as an individual chimp. Not quite human, "cute" and media worthy but in reality a savage and brutal creature that can turn on you in a heartbeat**. "Kill" one now and that's one less chimp available for writing any future disastrous bills.

**For the animal lovers
Chimps are quite capable of savage behavior, particularly when they are kept in improper conditions. Keeping a wild animal as a pet is abuse and I believe it is that abuse of denying a proper habitat that leads to such attacks to begin with. Chimps don't belong in our world as pets.

Relatedly:

Neither do our politically and ideologically recognizable "chimp" personalities belong in government. Tie in? Cartoon? nvmd

HOWEVER, I think (that is, my opinion is) that the cartoonist was banking on people Automatically Assuming that any chimp portrayal would have to be of a black person (either from personal sensitivity to their own racial make up/history OR from their own racial views) and that they would Automatically Assume out of Ignorance that Obama wrote the bill.

posted February 25, 2009 08:13 AM            

And you don't know a damn thing about my political beliefs you nimrod. I'm probably more of a conservative than you delude yourself into thinking you are. Look at you. You want to be an American so bad you can taste it don't you... Well, part of being an American is being a Patriot, something which you have clearly shown you are not.

Edit: And for the record, it never bothers me if someone has different beliefs or views than me. That's anyone's own perogative. However, I do take issue when people down and belittle other people because they think other people's beliefs are inferior or contrary to their own.

And I thought you were a decent person. I guess not. You are physically a very attractive woman but the way you go about this subforum completely takes away from that. I'm done with replying to you and this subforum. Peace.

posted February 25, 2009 08:25 AM            

That's not good logic.

People who think that cartoon is racist are those who themselves that don't associate all blacks with monkeys and hate that blacks are associated with monkeys. Of course, as a person born to a black father and white mother like Barack Obama, I don't like anybody of black ancestry to be associated with monkeys nor any other primates that are genetically lower than human beings. I certainly don't associate my black part of being of being of lower genetic primate. I associate all parts of me as a human being,and I want everybody else to see me as 100 percent human.

If I saw President Bush depicted as being monkey because he is viewed as having low intelligence because of his speech problems, I would consider it condescending,patronizing intellectual snobbery,and it would not be because I associate all people with speech problems as being of low intelligence. After all, I have speech problems, and I am highly intelligent person. I was called "retard" on a daily basis because of my Dyslexic,Dyspraxic-related speech problems which I had to get speech therapy to correct. I would consider it condescending,patronizing,intellectual snobbery because I hate that people associate people with speech problems as being of low intelligence because it's not true. Many people with speech problems are highly intelligent including people with Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,Autism, and other conditions that have connections to speech problems.

a lot of people get upset over things that people tell them and spread rumors that is not true

I got upset with people for calling me stupid,other things because they thought my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD was being of low intelligence. I remember as a child in special education who got into fights with children for calling me "retard",and they were all white.
I got upset with people for calling me "faggot" because people thought that I was gay because I have strong feminine traits and don't fit male stereotypes even though I am not gay. Most of them were black. I got upset with people calling me "nigger" because I don't like being called racial slurs. I am the type of person that believes that all people should love each other. I believe in doing unto others like I would have them do unto me. I believe in treating others like I want to be treated. When other people treat people badly, I do get upset. It's not just me. It's other people. I don't like anybody being talked down to and treated badly. I don't care who it is. My special education experience taught me humility in that I don't talk down to people and don't treat them like they are stupid nor call them things because of some illusion of superiority. That's not me. My special education experiences and my experiences as a person of multiethnic ancestry,multicultural background shaped to believe in equality of all people and that I should treat others like I want to be treated.

I think racism is still a problem in society. I think homophobia is still a problem in society..especially with gays not being allowed to marry each other. I think sexism is still a problem in society. I am damned sure that neurological bigotry is a problem in our society with so many of my fellow neurodivergents on psychiatric medications for not fitting inside the box. Many Neurotypical People want to fix us neurodivergents to be like them because they believe our way of thinking is inferior. My life purpose is to be a neurodiversity advocate.

I wish USA would get rid of unofficial one drop rule and let people of mixed race to acknowledge all of themselves and not just pin them down as black or any other racial minority background. I embrace and acknowledge all my heritage,and a lot of mixed people do the same damned thing. I didn't hesitate to mark down more than race on the 2000 Census. I was one of only 2.6 percent of the American population that did that. I know that there are a lot more mixed people than that. There are way more mixed people than 2.6 percent. When so many people were pinning down Barack Obama as black even though he was born to black and white parents, I felt like I was being pinned down too. There was a lot of racial conflict in me during the presidential race, wondering who and what I am, and where do I belong in society. This was reflected by transiting Saturn in Virgo in my 12th in grand cross transit to my Moon in Pisces in 6th square the opposition of Retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 9th and Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd. I even felt the presidential race brought out racial tension between my exgirlfriend(who is white) and me when Hillary Clinton was running against Barack Obama. I even felt awkward when she pointed out to me how black men got the vote before women. She was very angry with Oprah for supporting Barack,and saying that Barack wouldn't have gotten so much money from donations if it wasn't for her supporting him. She seemed to be very resentful towards blacks for voting for Obama. I was starting to think that she would be resentful towards me too. I didn't vote for anybody during the democratic primary because I wanted to stay neutral. I found the presidential race to be very stressful. I also felt that she was rather selfrighteous when it came to the Wright fiasco and racially insensitive and didn't really understood the racism that blacks go through. She grew up in mostly white state of New Hampshire. I was born and raised in California. I was born in the diverse city of San Francisco, the perfect place for an interracial couple to meet and have a child. I was raised in Sacramento which was voted in 2002 as most racially integrated major city in USA. It's a city of diversity too. She and I broke up because her mom hates men, and she told me that her mom hated men because my exgirlfriend's father treated her badly. It's ridiculous to hate a whole group of people because of one person in that group. If she hates all men, there is no telling who else she hates. My mom was shot by a black schizophrenic man, but my mom doesn't hate all black men nor does she hate all schizophrenics. I never hated a whole group of people for any mistreatment of me. maybe that's the idealism of my Moon in Pisces square Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius.

the history of racism against blacks included associating blacks with lower primates because of the belief that blacks were lower primates. These beliefs were going on during the days of slavery and when blacks didn't have civil rights. Even to this day, there are still people believe that blacks are lower primates. Some people still think blacks are lower intellectually. Many blacks are out of proportionately placed in special education programs. Many of them don't even belong in them.

any ways.....I am done with this thread.

I just want to say that nobody should be put down for having different views whether they are liberal,Democrat,Republican,conservative,other any political type.

Global Unity seems to be very Eris-like

Like Eris' Discoverer,Michael Brown said, mythological Eris made men quarrel and fight by making them think their opinions are right and others' are wrong. Intolerance of diversity. That's the biggest problem on our planet today. I see the same Eris-like issues here in Global Unity. It makes me wonder if Eris was prominent when Global Unity forum was first created.

posted February 25, 2009 10:58 AM            

quote:

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Once again I'm surprised you can't discern my point. My point is that if you interpret it strictly in the manner yourself and Jwhop have provided, we're still looking at a cartoon that suggests the writer(s) of the stimulus bill should be shot dead by the police for the violence they're inflicting on the people. You guys want to dumb it down to a simple comparison of a monkey to a stimulus bill writer, but that's not what's depicted in the cartoon, is it?

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And once again, you are complicating the concept of the cartoon. As jwhop has mentioned, you are overreaching in your analysis.

quote:

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Hahaha , you're jumping to the conclusion the cartoonist had the police shoot the chimp BECAUSE he wrote the Porkulus Bill.
-jwhop

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AG, quite frankly, you are jumping to conclusions. I posted the link to the news story about the chimp because it is absolutely vital to understanding the cartoon. The cartoonist did not create the "gunned-down" chimp out of thin air. It was a news story. It actually happened. This is the crux of understanding the message of the cartoon.

Even Eleanore is complicating the message (sorry love, but you are ):

quote:

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Ie, let us kill the chimp, any chimp, so that he is not, in the future, to be found among the group of people responsible for writing such another bill.

"Kill" one now and that's one less chimp available for writing any future disastrous bills.

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This is not the message of the cartoon. He is not saying we should all engage in homicidal behavior and kill all the "chimps" in Congress. He's not even trying to suggest that the cops' motives for killing the chimp was because he wrote the bill. He is simply inserting a quote in one of the officers' mouths that was at an actual event where an actual monkey was killed for reasons that we already know (obviously not for creating the stimulus bill). In other words,

"You know that monkey that was killed? It turns out he wrote the stimulus bill. Get it? ‘Cause, you know, that bill is sooooo stupid."

Is the cartoon insensitive? Absolutely! On so many levels...

Will associations be made? Of course, but it is the responsibility of the individual making the associations to know which ones are valid and which ones are not.

Let's now go back to the point of the thread:

Is this cartoon racist?

quote:

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If it's not racist, then it's devoid of coherant thought.
-AG

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No, this cartoon is neither racist nor devoid of coherent thought. You may not agree with its political implications, but that’s another story.

We can’t just start throwing the “R” word around every time someone disagrees with the new administration, Congress, the stimulus or anything that is associated with Obama.

That would be a fascist thing to do.

posted February 25, 2009 11:50 AM            

Oh wait, there is one more group who would find racism there but those people identify racism in every word and action in America. Those are in the Club of the Perpetually Offended.

Grow up.

**Edit

Thank you once again for clear analysis NosiS. Believe it or not, I had a hard time finding those cartoons. There has been a concerted effort to clean the Internet of the very racist cartoons which leftists were cranking out..including those which appeared in newspapers in the MSM. You know, it was OK to print racist cartoons when Bush was in the White House but now, that must all be swept into the black hole and made to disappear.

posted February 25, 2009 06:55 PM            

quote:

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He's not even trying to suggest that the cops' motives for killing the chimp was because he wrote the bill.

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Quite. Which is why I pointed out that the officer is referring to a hypothetical future spending bill.

quote:

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They'll have to find someone else to write the next stimulus bill"

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quote:

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"You know that monkey that was killed? It turns out he wrote the stimulus bill. Get it? ‘Cause, you know, that bill is sooooo stupid."

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I disagree. I don't think the cartoonist is referring to the shot chimp as necessarily one who wrote the already passed bill. Rather, we know this bill was passed, it's clear it was written by fools, ie chimps. That chimp that was really shot down ... perhaps he was one of the parties involved in this fiasco OR and more likely
he is perhaps someone who would have found his way into a similarly powerful situation in the future. Either way, rabid chimp attacker shot down = one less idiot to write any future spending bills.

"Where do they find the chimps to write these stupid bills? This one sure won't do them any good." hardee har har

Whether or not that particular chimp worked on the already passed bill is essentially irrelevant. Besides, none of those people have been metaphorically shot down (not by those who are in control anyway) so assuming he meant to literally imply any of those persons is reaching, imo. He was purposely vague and understandably so.